BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
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Thanks Ham
It sounds like there is some room for manoeuvre in regards to the outstations. It is just the base/position redundant and not necessarily the pilot as long as they are willing to re-base at Lhr.
It sounds like there is some room for manoeuvre in regards to the outstations. It is just the base/position redundant and not necessarily the pilot as long as they are willing to re-base at Lhr.
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The claw back is related to cap and is a function of our bidline rules. So either you will have voluntarily transferred onto the msl and you'll learn to love/hate bidline or you'll have elected to stay ring fenced and thus be rostered as close to your 740 as they can achieve.
Either way its not a trap to pay you less than promised.
Either way its not a trap to pay you less than promised.
It does sound very similar to the old Dan/EOG deal. There were winners and losers there depending on who you knew in rostering. Rest assured BA will get the vast majority of pilots near to the maximum ASAP.
The nice thing about BA is though that generally the trips tend to be fairly efficient, so you can get some long days, but you don't tend to waste time hanging around.
The nice thing about BA is though that generally the trips tend to be fairly efficient, so you can get some long days, but you don't tend to waste time hanging around.
Mach 3
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With respect to merging of seniority lists, I'd be interested to know whether, if BALPA took a poll of all their members outside of BA, the result would overwhelmingly favour mergers rather than concatenation?
Perhaps even if BA pilots were included in the above vote, the result would favour merging lists not some other paradigm? The vociferous minority do not always represent the majority...
It is very difficult not to see this issue becoming a Union-busting activity, albeit, busted by the BA pilots from the inside!
Arguably, there are always those who have thought that BALPA stood for BA LPA, but I fear the insistence by some that "No BA pilot should be disadvantaged by the integration of..." might actually be a cunning plot by management to effectively split, if not destroy, BALPA.
Cognizant of the OW debacle, knowledgeable of the bmi-BMed precedent and presumably informed about the Virgin fiasco, BA have pandered to the naked self-interest of their pilots to place BALPA in an unenviable position and heap yet more pressure upon them.
Perhaps what Studi is referring to is do not be too distracted by the battle, but focus on the war?
That said, it maybe that BA pilots are quite willing to accept an emasculated Union, which ultimately does none of us any favours, as long as their status quo is not upset.
This is a sad reflection on our profession but a not unsurprising end-point bearing in mind the Anglo-Saxon (i.e., not Continental) context of the debate.
Perhaps even if BA pilots were included in the above vote, the result would favour merging lists not some other paradigm? The vociferous minority do not always represent the majority...
It is very difficult not to see this issue becoming a Union-busting activity, albeit, busted by the BA pilots from the inside!
Arguably, there are always those who have thought that BALPA stood for BA LPA, but I fear the insistence by some that "No BA pilot should be disadvantaged by the integration of..." might actually be a cunning plot by management to effectively split, if not destroy, BALPA.
Cognizant of the OW debacle, knowledgeable of the bmi-BMed precedent and presumably informed about the Virgin fiasco, BA have pandered to the naked self-interest of their pilots to place BALPA in an unenviable position and heap yet more pressure upon them.
Perhaps what Studi is referring to is do not be too distracted by the battle, but focus on the war?
That said, it maybe that BA pilots are quite willing to accept an emasculated Union, which ultimately does none of us any favours, as long as their status quo is not upset.
This is a sad reflection on our profession but a not unsurprising end-point bearing in mind the Anglo-Saxon (i.e., not Continental) context of the debate.
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Studi
I like others do not get your points,
I am looking at the many times you quote about BA pilots letting the T&C's drop, maybe you should realise that the terms that existed from the mid 70's were not sustainable, the BA.cc were smart enough to see that and take the bull by the horns and re structure,
PAy and allowance restructuring, = better basic pay and less tax on said allowances, something the BA cabin crew wish they had gone for when their taxes went up.
Better scheduling and rostering systems allowing more hands on changing of trips etc.
Changes to pensions to recover what was ruined by uk government
all of the above were a better system to BA pilots and saved them suffering terms being imposed, or going down the route of iberia express.
So yes, we are happy with our lot, no its not alright JAck, I am guessing you have a jealosy of BA due failing to get in, or you are BMI concerned for your future, if neither of the above, please state your intentions,
Ze germans couldnt make BMI work in its present form, maybe IAG can, but it will mean a bit of pain for some before it comes good.
I like others do not get your points,
I am looking at the many times you quote about BA pilots letting the T&C's drop, maybe you should realise that the terms that existed from the mid 70's were not sustainable, the BA.cc were smart enough to see that and take the bull by the horns and re structure,
PAy and allowance restructuring, = better basic pay and less tax on said allowances, something the BA cabin crew wish they had gone for when their taxes went up.
Better scheduling and rostering systems allowing more hands on changing of trips etc.
Changes to pensions to recover what was ruined by uk government
all of the above were a better system to BA pilots and saved them suffering terms being imposed, or going down the route of iberia express.
So yes, we are happy with our lot, no its not alright JAck, I am guessing you have a jealosy of BA due failing to get in, or you are BMI concerned for your future, if neither of the above, please state your intentions,
Ze germans couldnt make BMI work in its present form, maybe IAG can, but it will mean a bit of pain for some before it comes good.
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I think SR71 raises a valid point. BALPA NECs silence is deafening to the two groups and to the membership in general. We all would expect some leadership in this hotly contested debate but alas nothing other than an I'll informed document from someone who was not tasked to make a decision, note had the facts to make a decision yet it would appear that that was what he tried to do. What do the PNs have to say?
On a slightly different subject, has there been any discussion or resolution on how the part-time pilots within BMI will be handled? BMI has quite a high percentage of part time pilots with a number of different variations of part time. None of these variations I believe share common terms with BA's part time positions.
On a slightly different subject, has there been any discussion or resolution on how the part-time pilots within BMI will be handled? BMI has quite a high percentage of part time pilots with a number of different variations of part time. None of these variations I believe share common terms with BA's part time positions.
PPRuNe Person
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We all would expect some leadership in this hotly contested debate
Don't think it's a debate?
Not sure why the general membership would expect communications at this stage? It's not the 20th yet.
I expect the part-time discussions will take place soon, TUPE has things to say on that subject, if it ever is applied.
SR71, difficult to see how BA pilots are a 'vociferous minority' in this case. Would have thought BMI pilots were the minority, surely?
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Unity and being alright Jack as you so eloquently put it are not linked as easily as you seem to think.
The 2 differences between all pilots in BA as far a I can see them are.
PP24 vs PP34
old pension, new pension.
Both of these came about due to changes in the law by uk . gov
ie change of retirement age and money grabbing from pensions with tax changes by gordon brown.
the pay points mean that the earnings year on year are the same just spread out over the longer career,
the pensions were a necesity due to the lack of funds left in the pot.
We may not have the sensible government that you have with ze germans so we have to make concessions,
if BA cc had not looked at the options above, many of the other terms and conditions future hires into BA will benefit from would of been lost.
Alright jack, or trying to protect as much as possible for as long as possible.
And when you talk about YOUR company being unified, yes german wings are LH but are you really on the same T&c's and pay as the big boys???
The 2 differences between all pilots in BA as far a I can see them are.
PP24 vs PP34
old pension, new pension.
Both of these came about due to changes in the law by uk . gov
ie change of retirement age and money grabbing from pensions with tax changes by gordon brown.
the pay points mean that the earnings year on year are the same just spread out over the longer career,
the pensions were a necesity due to the lack of funds left in the pot.
We may not have the sensible government that you have with ze germans so we have to make concessions,
if BA cc had not looked at the options above, many of the other terms and conditions future hires into BA will benefit from would of been lost.
Alright jack, or trying to protect as much as possible for as long as possible.
And when you talk about YOUR company being unified, yes german wings are LH but are you really on the same T&c's and pay as the big boys???
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Ok, I missed the word "UNBIASED" from the sentence relating to leadership. I pay my subscription among other reasons to get legal protection and advice for the day I may need some aviation related legal guidance.
I'm not fighting or defending either the BA or the BMI camp, merely wondering when we will actually hear BALPA NECs recommendation. As mentioned before, I'm talking about an official line, rather than an individuals view, as per the document that was circulated and subsequently been proven to be lacking significant details and facts, on which the conclusion was based upon.
Seriously having read this thread and many others, it needs some unbiased comments i.e. non BMI or BA to get some feeling as to what the wider community, armed with information about TUPE would think is appropriate. By all means, the two groups should be able to reply and correct any incorrect information that has been used to come up with a particular view point but it would be refreshing to get some other opinions, especially from the outside looking in.
I'm not fighting or defending either the BA or the BMI camp, merely wondering when we will actually hear BALPA NECs recommendation. As mentioned before, I'm talking about an official line, rather than an individuals view, as per the document that was circulated and subsequently been proven to be lacking significant details and facts, on which the conclusion was based upon.
Seriously having read this thread and many others, it needs some unbiased comments i.e. non BMI or BA to get some feeling as to what the wider community, armed with information about TUPE would think is appropriate. By all means, the two groups should be able to reply and correct any incorrect information that has been used to come up with a particular view point but it would be refreshing to get some other opinions, especially from the outside looking in.
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Studi,
Doesn't matter a jot to me, I just thought it would be sensible to say what company you worked for whilst describing what a nirvana it is. I'm reading your posts not stalking you. As an aside I'm impressed that you've got 95% of what ML lufty get, that's certainly not what they tell us down route.
N.
Doesn't matter a jot to me, I just thought it would be sensible to say what company you worked for whilst describing what a nirvana it is. I'm reading your posts not stalking you. As an aside I'm impressed that you've got 95% of what ML lufty get, that's certainly not what they tell us down route.
N.
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Studi
we could bash heads on this all day,
But firstly, the change to the pay points was to embrace the change in the new retirement age, I for one see it as a minor concession to maintaining the bigger picture, also any new joiners know the payscale they will be joining so can make the choice,
the alternative you suggest would of meant all 3400 ba pilots taking a paycut for several years to embrace this change, the company did not ask for this, so where is the sense in offering it for future alleged unity?
I cannot see how you would of considered it myself.
secondly, I am pleased you at Gw have had such a good integretion, it sounds much like the eventual outcome of EOG at LGW who our now pretty much on parity with LHR, and also when the city flyer take over went through.
BUT< the point you miss is? EW and citiflyer were similer in as much as good strong going concerns,
BMI was all but bankrupt and would of been months ago if it were not for the injections of cash by IAG 15 million as agreed with LH,
hence LH making the current redundancies before IAG take over and continue reshaping.
No one in BA is looking for BMI to be 2nd class or treated in any way other than embracing new colleagues to the party,
And there is no issues with protected current commands or future commands for the bmi sfo's as the BMi slots become available.
But there is no desire on BA pilots part to open the door to a failing shorthaul operator to then walk into long haul commands.
Simple fact, again I think you use the alright jack scenario in the wrong place, we have worked hard for many years with BA/IAg to remain a profitable fluid workforce to avoid the excat scenario BMi pilots find themselves left in due mismanagement
7
we could bash heads on this all day,
But firstly, the change to the pay points was to embrace the change in the new retirement age, I for one see it as a minor concession to maintaining the bigger picture, also any new joiners know the payscale they will be joining so can make the choice,
the alternative you suggest would of meant all 3400 ba pilots taking a paycut for several years to embrace this change, the company did not ask for this, so where is the sense in offering it for future alleged unity?
I cannot see how you would of considered it myself.
secondly, I am pleased you at Gw have had such a good integretion, it sounds much like the eventual outcome of EOG at LGW who our now pretty much on parity with LHR, and also when the city flyer take over went through.
BUT< the point you miss is? EW and citiflyer were similer in as much as good strong going concerns,
BMI was all but bankrupt and would of been months ago if it were not for the injections of cash by IAG 15 million as agreed with LH,
hence LH making the current redundancies before IAG take over and continue reshaping.
No one in BA is looking for BMI to be 2nd class or treated in any way other than embracing new colleagues to the party,
And there is no issues with protected current commands or future commands for the bmi sfo's as the BMi slots become available.
But there is no desire on BA pilots part to open the door to a failing shorthaul operator to then walk into long haul commands.
Simple fact, again I think you use the alright jack scenario in the wrong place, we have worked hard for many years with BA/IAg to remain a profitable fluid workforce to avoid the excat scenario BMi pilots find themselves left in due mismanagement
7
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Originally Posted by Super Stall
The NEC's view via the IRSC was published weeks ago and is available on the Balpa forum for any members to view.
Please try and keep up you chaps.
Please try and keep up you chaps.
Originally Posted by Dom Joly
alas nothing other than an I'll informed document from someone who was not tasked to make a decision, nor had the facts to make a decision, yet it would appear that that was what he tried to do.
Hopefully that's the last time I will have to lower myself to retaliating. This thread needs to have more facts rather than opinions, other than some fresh external thoughts. After all, I don't think anyone really wants to read 300+ bmi comments and 3000+ BA comments slugging it out for their own personal gain.
By introducing external thoughts, perhaps we can see what the greater industry makes of all of this. Perhaps we can get some views from other Companies where a takeover, merger, buyout or whatever you want to call it has occurred. It would be interesting to see how it went, together with pros and cons and what would be could have been done differently.
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With respect to merging of seniority lists, I'd be interested to know whether, if BALPA took a poll of all their members outside of BA, the result would overwhelmingly favour mergers rather than concatenation?
Perhaps even if BA pilots were included in the above vote, the result would favour merging lists not some other paradigm? The vociferous minority do not always represent the majority...
Perhaps even if BA pilots were included in the above vote, the result would favour merging lists not some other paradigm? The vociferous minority do not always represent the majority...
I think SR71 raises a valid point. BALPA NECs silence is deafening to the two groups and to the membership in general. We all would expect some leadership in this hotly contested debate but alas nothing other than an I'll informed document from someone who was not tasked to make a decision, note had the facts to make a decision yet it would appear that that was what he tried to do.
You didn't like what they had to say so you call them "ill informed".
THE BMI-CC didn't like what they had to say so they kept the report from their members.
As I've said before, this is about (some) BMI pilots trying to skip the queue to BA longhaul and using every excuse in the book to justify it.