BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

[ETOPS]

Can I recommend this analysts briefing which contains some fascinating detail and may help to explain where IAG are going.........

Centreforaviation.com/analysis

I would give yourself about 10 mins to read all of it.

[Genghis McCann]

If you were a 10-year BA pilot sniffing at a command, would you want to merge seniority lists?

[BusDriverLHR]

On the subject of integration - The bmi CC owes it to their membership to get a fair deal in terms of integration of SLs.

No. The BMI CC owes it to their membership to undertake an objective and unemotional analysis of their current situation and determine what the best course of action is to achieve the best (realistic) deal possible for BMI pilots.

Thus far they have failed miserably. They have come up with an unachievable list if demands, told their membership what they wanted to hear and refused to listen to those who tried to point out the precarious reality of their situation.

The error of their ways is rapidly becoming apparent. I feel desperately sorry for those who stand to lose their jobs. The number facing redundancy would almost certainly be less had the BMICC engaged with the BACC instead of bullishly chasing the pipe-dream of a zippered seniority list while harping on about the BMI/BMED merger.

If I was one of those handed 90 days notice I would be feeling bitterly misrepresented.

[red 7]

One dollar
I for one was not suggesting its one way or no way, the ba cc have stated and proven that they have very good methods for coming up with good avenues to negotiate with BA/IAG
So to suggest that the advice they would of given is bully boy like if grossly misinformed on your part.
And with regard to the 12 yr sfo from BMI being on the bottom of the BA MSL, well its better than the alternative I would guess, as has become apparent over the last few days.

And where is this legal challenge going to come from?
On what basis?
funded by who?
and to what good end would it result?

I think you should stop making wild and fantasy suggestions

[red 7]

I would suggest Branson is using the BMI/BA deal to aportion blame for some of the future bad news.
If rumour from head office is to be believed,
Bookings are poor,
Future Bookings are terrible,
and the whole operation is being propped up by takings of deposits for Virgin galactic, as they use VS aoc at the moment.
I cannot for one minute see VS taking any of these slots for domestic use, at best I would say they may take a pair of the saudi slots, but that does not really fit the leisure market they are in.

Where is the VS business model heading with no domestic operation, or tie up with a codeshare partner, I can see them ripe for a similar situation to BMi in a few short years, not that beardy would ever let IAG get their hands on VS.

[Yellow Sun]

I can see them ripe for a similar situation to BMi in a few short years, not that beardy would ever let IAG get their hands on VS.

I tend to agree with your opinion of Virgin's prospects, however I cannot really support the rest of the statement. It was said for many years that SMB would not "get into bed" with the bearded one because of a personality clash. I am sure that the only reason was the fact the Richard never had sufficient readies to make a deal, something well demonstrated by the derisory offer he made LH for bmi. I bet that if IAG made a sufficiently large offer he would be off before you could say "Sir Richard has left the building"!

[757_Driver]

Don't be brow-beaten into forgoing what is due to you under the law. And respect to the BMICC for having the courage to seek this. Unfortunately, BALPA will not help you, so you will have to get a pot of money together if it comes to tribunals/high court.

Oh for gods sake. Another person who thinks the world owes everone a living. NOTHING, repeat NOTHING is owed to anyone under the law in this situation. TUPE does not even apply until IAG has finished the current hatchet job - by which time there may be nothing left to protect under TUPE. Seniority / bidline / different fleets, is not, was never and will never be owed under law. It may be something on the negotiating table but it is not legally required.
Yes, BMICC should be fighting their corner, and I'm sure they are much more knowlegable than you (or I ) about the legal matters. But alot of people have said for weeks that they are fighting the wrong corner and being unrealistic in their expectations.

Its a ****ty message, but don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the way the world works.

This is my last word on the subject as the last thread just turned into a ping pong match between people who refused to accept the reality of the situation. And I've got better things to do to be honest

[red 7]

Maybe you should spend a little time rereading Tupe

It does protect what you have, not what you wish for.

If BMI do become merged with BA, after LH have finished the current restructuring, and after IAG have done their bit to reshape the remnants, then any merger will respect current positions, pay and terms and conditions.

It will not allow for enhanced T&c's and elevated pay, if BMI are ring fenced and retain the career path they always possesed, along with BMI doj for staff travel etc then there is no case to answer.

Anyone who is poised on the edge of the precipice awaiting to hear "job or no job" needs their head examined if they are then considering sueing the future employer for what is not there's to desire in the first place.

[Time Traveller]

If I can put it a simpler way, we made absolutely clear to our new employers, "Although this will be day one for us with you; in all respects, you need to treat us exactly as if we have been here for 8 years". So far as I can tell, thats the way it works, in a nutshell. (I seem to remember, there are a couple of exemptions, such as pension)

If TUPE applies...

[look you]

Hmmm, I'm wondering....in BACC's letter to IRSC, how many times did they mention helping out with avoiding redundancies in bmi (none) and how many times did they mention staff travel concessions, (it was 6th item on their list)? So who was ignoring the elephant?

So mr 757 Driver and mr bus driver lhr: what would you have done to save the (45) jobs currently at risk in bmi? Don't forget you have to do it without disadvantaging any of your colleagues.

How many times have the 2 CCs met over the past months? Obviously those that say bmiCC haven't engaged know the answer. Presumably the bmiCC spent these meetings with ear defenders on, so making sure they didn't hear any of the advice.

My guess is that there are only a few people who know what really has gone on, and they are not posting on here....

[red 7]

I am glad you raised the point of the IRSC proposal,
Why did the BMI cc bury that and take so long to distribute it to its members, if they did at all, I suspect that it contained statements that did not agree with the line they were feeding the members and raising their expectations.

[Tay Cough]

If I can put it a simpler way, we made absolutely clear to our new employers, "Although this will be day one for us with you; in all respects, you need to treat us exactly as if we have been here for 8 years". So far as I can tell, thats the way it works, in a nutshell.

Nearly.

"In all respects, you need to treat us exactly as we have been for 8 years" is more correct. That's TUPE.

[look you]

Ok, so what advice has BACC given that wasn't listened to regarding avoiding redundancies?

[Hand Solo]

Sign on the dotted line, take a compromise agreement which obliges you not to sue BA, then keep all your jobs.

It appears the bmi CC have instead chosen the speculative route of trying to negotiate with IAG (ha!) and instead have got their balls in a vice and their members on 90 days notice of redundancy.

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by onedollar

So when you say 'take BACC advice', read take BACC 'accept mywayorthehighway' offer, smells slightly of bully boy tactics. The slots that your company has wisely invested in comes with pilots and a loss making airline. Alot of the duplication will go, and watch the losses shrink as then it is just 29 airframes and well trained, efficient pilots.

It's not bullyboy tactics. It's the real world. The fact that you have been spun a line by your management for years on end that in some way you are attached to the slots is not IAGs problem. BA have enough aircraft at LHR to fly every one of bmis slots to 80% utilisation (the minimum require to keep a slot) without any bmi aircraft. If they run tight they can wet least aircraft to do the job. The financial, and hard, reality is that the slots are important to IAG. The aircraft, and people, they can do without if needs be.

It is rather heavy handed all of the BA chaps coming on here and saying that the bmi chaps should just take whats offered to them and be happy at that; buying bmi has given you the golden opportunity to expand and a hugely constrained airport,

BMI's slots (note SLOTS, not pilots) have offered expansion POTENTIAL. Nothing more.

but you give them a bottom of a list offer, have generously voted them onto a lower salary than yourselves and tell them that they should be thankful for a job!

They'd keep their current salary, and progress up the bmi patscale until they were overtaken by the BA payscale, at which point they'd join that. Please try to keep your facts even close to accurate. And yes, they should be thankful for a job because the alternative to an IAG purchase was a P45.

The 34 year pp will bite you, when the 34pp make up 51%, I wonder what the vote will be then when it comes to cost savings as effectively the airline has divisively broken the employee cohesion is one fell pay point swoop.

I'll worry about the BARPS/NAPS split first thank you. Although those actually in BA tend to recognise financial reality when they see it.

Arguments mooted about should a 10 year FO pushing at command support merging, well should a 12 year FO in bmi be thrilled about moving to the bottom of a 3000 pilot list? All that separates them both is a one day interview and circumstance. Good on the bmicc, I hope that they take this all of the way.

No, they shouldn't be thrilled. Should they be thrilled that they have a job instead of joining the dole queue? They are not seperated by a one day interview and circumstance, they are seperated by a decade of service to a company that is financially sound rather than a decade of service to a bankrupt entity.

I sincerely hope that this does result in a legal challenge of the archaic seniority system and then lets see where the cards fall.

It won't result in a challenge because if the current path continues the bmi pilots will not end up on any seniority list. They'll be a standalony, dying fleet representing the dying fleet they've come from. A great triumph for the bmi CC, sacrificing the career prospects of each of their FOs in favour of the impossible dream of long haul commands for their captains.

Edit:

@ look you - the BACC can't offer compromise agreements. They could propose them as a scheme which BA might approve. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you knew that.

@max nightstop - you are another one failing to understand who is doing what in this takeover. IAG have to offer nothing, or explore anything. Please get up to speed to spare the rest of us having to explain this time and time again.

[FlyingEagle21]

Probably a silly question but would anyone consider easyJet to take over BAs slots @ LHR? Would they be interested? I can't see Virgin making the routesviable and who else would there be to pick them up? Could it be a cheap way in?


I know this is old but has the situation changed. easyJet applies to fly BA's Heathrow - Belfast service

[Anton du Flasheart]

Hand,

Is it possible that
Quote
"The fact that you have been spun a line by your management for years on end "
might also describe you?
BA has spent a lot of effort sending it's staff on 'Corporate Identity' days in the past - just maybe you have been sucked in a little!

[Hand Solo]

@FlyingEagle - Easy could have a crack but they'd need changes to their business model. High utilisation doesn't really work at LHR due to the incessant delays.

@Anton - we go to 'corporate identity' days because we're rostered them and they pay us for them. Nobody believes the hype. Tell me your average bmi pilot doesn't believe that they are somehow stakeholders in bmi slots.

[Hotel Mode]

I joined BA over a decade ago and have never been to any remotely corporate day. Bog standard SEP annually and 2 leading flight safety cock up avoidance days. Did I miss out? (I admit to missing the gorilla)

[BusDriverLHR]

look you

So mr 757 Driver and mr bus driver lhr: what would you have done to save the (45) jobs currently at risk in bmi? Don't forget you have to do it without disadvantaging any of your colleagues.

One option may have been a Voluntary Redundancy package (as agreed by the BACC a few years ago) across the entire pilot workforce, which would quite possibly have eliminated all mainline redundancies (VR amongst 3550 pilots is much more effective than across 300). I'm sure there are other options that the BACC would come up with. They frequently surprise us with inventive solutions. They've become quite adept at knowing what will appeal to BA.