BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
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I have heard a number of people talk of a "Conflict Of Interest" regarding the BAcc's chairman trying to protect his own personal long haul command aspirations, rather than the greater good of the majority and a harmonious joining of groups. I don't have access to the BALPA forums, so can not see where or why this may be speculated but if true this would be considered to be abusing their position. This could just be based on lack of information but as they say no smoke without fire!
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overstress
Surely BA could instantly create some of the cheapest A380/B747/B787 pilots in the world if as you also say:
Purely on a financial, or indeed legal basis, where's the flaw for BA/IAG?
I will stay away from 'zipped seniority' except to say that BA would never go for it as it would hugely increase their costs at a time when they have to turn loss-making BMI to profit within 2 years - the BACC would never be able to persuade BA to go for zipping even if it supported it.
they would retain their current salary under TUPE until their service in BA meant that they had caught up with the payscale
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Thick E - Hmmm, let me guess how many people talking of this conflict of interest come from the bmi ranks? All of them? The BACC chairman doesn't operate in isolation and many of the BALPA reps are already long haul captains. Perhaps you are also unaware that there is significant oppostion from BA FO's who fear that the bmi pilots are going to stitch up all progression to short haul BA commands? The reality is that the interests of the majority of BA pilots are not served by allowing the bmi pilots to leapfrog them on the seniority lists. That's the greater good of the majority.
4468 - they probably could, but would BA pilots wear it? I don't think so, and BA know it's not worth the industrial strife to try it The bottom line is money talks.
4468 - they probably could, but would BA pilots wear it? I don't think so, and BA know it's not worth the industrial strife to try it The bottom line is money talks.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I don't have access to the BALPA forums, so can not see where or why this may be speculated ...
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ThickE: Having spoken to the BACC chairman yesterday on a flight back I can assure you that his personal aspirations don't figure in his thinking as to where this is going. I think he, and most of the BACC would find that particular suggestion extremely insulting.
I gather the BACC are disappointed and a little surprised that the BMICC hasn't taken the opportunity to sit down and discuss the issues that will arise going forward, and try to come up with a package that suits both sides. I suspect that when they go in to the TUPE talks with BA tomorrow they will be a little disappointed to discover that the "negotiations" are in fact far from that.
I personally have given up a days leave EVERY year for the rest of my career, as well as voting in £10M worth of savings in order to get the BMI guys integrated into BA. This is no small give and the frankly combative nature of the responses on here make me wonder whether it was actually worth it.
The facts, and these are facts, are as follows: BA has stated that the BMI cost base will NOT increase on integration. This totally rules out any thought of a zippered seniority list, as zippering the BMI guys in would leave a significant number of them on the top pay points.
As I understand it, if they DID zipper the lists, the vast majority of the BMI guys would end up in the top 1000 out of 3500 pilots in terms of seniority.
To say this would be a windfall for them is an understatement. They would have access to the most sought after commands, best trips, best leave, best christmas trips etc. on an ongoing basis. I'm sure that they would very much like this to happen, but as we keep flagging up the concept of "Fairness" I fail to see how they can justify parachuting themselves into the top of the list, and pushing the remaining 2500 long term BA pilots down the list. Even if they magnanimously agree to a 5 year freeze on arrival which is standard on joining BA it doesn't change any of the above. When you have co-pilots like myself with 12,000 heavy jet hours, and 16 years invested in the company, waiting for longhaul commands I fail to see why somebody with no background in BA should parachute themselves in above me for the remaining 25 years of my career
Yes, they may well be experienced, but so is everybody else in BA. We don't employ crappy pilots. We don't need BMI to provide an experience spread across the 46 gained slots as we have more than enough experienced people already, and a significant number of other experienced people waiting in the hold pool for jobs.
I look forward to welcoming you into the company, but the ongoing threats of court cases, and destroying seniority/bidline etc. on arrival are frankly doing nothing but damage and generating bad feeling. Given the number of friends in the industry struggling for jobs, working in Canada and the far east etc., I think it is WHOLLY reasonable to say that yes, you should be grateful that you are joining the largest, most profitable, secure, and best aviation career in the UK, with the best prospects, and all this through being in the right place and the right time, and not having to endure the usual BA selection trawl that everybody else has gone through.
See it for what it is: The best career opportunity that you are EVER likely to come across and make the most of it. Don't destroy it with unreasonable expectations and demands.
[/rant]
I gather the BACC are disappointed and a little surprised that the BMICC hasn't taken the opportunity to sit down and discuss the issues that will arise going forward, and try to come up with a package that suits both sides. I suspect that when they go in to the TUPE talks with BA tomorrow they will be a little disappointed to discover that the "negotiations" are in fact far from that.
I personally have given up a days leave EVERY year for the rest of my career, as well as voting in £10M worth of savings in order to get the BMI guys integrated into BA. This is no small give and the frankly combative nature of the responses on here make me wonder whether it was actually worth it.
The facts, and these are facts, are as follows: BA has stated that the BMI cost base will NOT increase on integration. This totally rules out any thought of a zippered seniority list, as zippering the BMI guys in would leave a significant number of them on the top pay points.
As I understand it, if they DID zipper the lists, the vast majority of the BMI guys would end up in the top 1000 out of 3500 pilots in terms of seniority.
To say this would be a windfall for them is an understatement. They would have access to the most sought after commands, best trips, best leave, best christmas trips etc. on an ongoing basis. I'm sure that they would very much like this to happen, but as we keep flagging up the concept of "Fairness" I fail to see how they can justify parachuting themselves into the top of the list, and pushing the remaining 2500 long term BA pilots down the list. Even if they magnanimously agree to a 5 year freeze on arrival which is standard on joining BA it doesn't change any of the above. When you have co-pilots like myself with 12,000 heavy jet hours, and 16 years invested in the company, waiting for longhaul commands I fail to see why somebody with no background in BA should parachute themselves in above me for the remaining 25 years of my career
Yes, they may well be experienced, but so is everybody else in BA. We don't employ crappy pilots. We don't need BMI to provide an experience spread across the 46 gained slots as we have more than enough experienced people already, and a significant number of other experienced people waiting in the hold pool for jobs.
I look forward to welcoming you into the company, but the ongoing threats of court cases, and destroying seniority/bidline etc. on arrival are frankly doing nothing but damage and generating bad feeling. Given the number of friends in the industry struggling for jobs, working in Canada and the far east etc., I think it is WHOLLY reasonable to say that yes, you should be grateful that you are joining the largest, most profitable, secure, and best aviation career in the UK, with the best prospects, and all this through being in the right place and the right time, and not having to endure the usual BA selection trawl that everybody else has gone through.
See it for what it is: The best career opportunity that you are EVER likely to come across and make the most of it. Don't destroy it with unreasonable expectations and demands.
[/rant]
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Surely BA could instantly create some of the cheapest A380/B747/B787 pilots in the world ...
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HF
As you can see I never said that I heard this on the forum, merely a couple private conversations in different locations. It may be that the BMI BALPA folk are rubbishing this concept on their forum, as I said I don't know.
Jumpjim
Thanks for your candid reply. I do empathize with you on the pure numbers and figures of a zippered integration. I think there needs to be more communication and sharing of information between the two groups so we can see what the results of every permutation would look like, together with the associated lines for shorthaul command, long haul command and long haul FO. From the bmi side we should offer the names and numbers of those who have bid for long haul, all DOJs, who are full time/part time etc together with retirement dates. With the combined information shared between the two groups, it would make for a far more balanced discussion rather than nearly 20 pages on here, which to be fair is mainly conjecture based on very little hard facts.
I think once the information comes about many on here (both parties) will find that we can all discuss the matter from a level playing field rather than as we are, more like playing battleships and guessing what the other is suggesting.
I have heard a number of people talk of a "Conflict Of Interest"
Jumpjim
Thanks for your candid reply. I do empathize with you on the pure numbers and figures of a zippered integration. I think there needs to be more communication and sharing of information between the two groups so we can see what the results of every permutation would look like, together with the associated lines for shorthaul command, long haul command and long haul FO. From the bmi side we should offer the names and numbers of those who have bid for long haul, all DOJs, who are full time/part time etc together with retirement dates. With the combined information shared between the two groups, it would make for a far more balanced discussion rather than nearly 20 pages on here, which to be fair is mainly conjecture based on very little hard facts.
I think once the information comes about many on here (both parties) will find that we can all discuss the matter from a level playing field rather than as we are, more like playing battleships and guessing what the other is suggesting.
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In which case maybe the BMICC should start engaging with our guys? I gather there hasn't been anything as of yet which is a MAJOR strategic cockup and one which they will rue going going forward. This has been mooted a fair few times both on here and the BALPA forum with no take-up.
Our guys have dealt with BA for years, and with the announcement yesterday of a HUGE rejig in the Gatwick base, the BMICC should wake up and smell the coffee.
For the purposes of clarity BA are not in the demonstrated habit of "Giving" anything. Your guys should be expecting to get the absolute bare minimum as an offer, and engaging with the BACC to see if they can improve it to something more palatable. I will eat my hat if BA come up with anything more than that.
Our guys have dealt with BA for years, and with the announcement yesterday of a HUGE rejig in the Gatwick base, the BMICC should wake up and smell the coffee.
For the purposes of clarity BA are not in the demonstrated habit of "Giving" anything. Your guys should be expecting to get the absolute bare minimum as an offer, and engaging with the BACC to see if they can improve it to something more palatable. I will eat my hat if BA come up with anything more than that.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I suspect it's probably moot but the fallout would probably start with BA losing the £10m savings the pilots have just agreed to. We'd probably then find ourselves in an Iberia/IBx scenario which, however it played out, would be extremely expensive.
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HF
The maximum you personally will give up is a small amount in your Ts&Cs - others here have lost their entire income.
As a group you didn't give up £10m to be nice to anybody else, it was entirely in your own interest - so you have a better chance to get onto something bigger quicker - and improve your relative seniority.
I'm realistic and know that self interest is necessary in this world, but I think you are going a bit too far. Next time your luck luck might be down - don't expect any support around here.
Thankfully you are not representative of all BA employees.
The maximum you personally will give up is a small amount in your Ts&Cs - others here have lost their entire income.
As a group you didn't give up £10m to be nice to anybody else, it was entirely in your own interest - so you have a better chance to get onto something bigger quicker - and improve your relative seniority.
I'm realistic and know that self interest is necessary in this world, but I think you are going a bit too far. Next time your luck luck might be down - don't expect any support around here.
Thankfully you are not representative of all BA employees.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Not sure what you're getting at Anton. You're right in that I suspect most of my colleagues voted based upon self interest rather than altruism but all we're hearing from our future BMI colleagues is no different.
I wish everyone joining from BMI the best of luck and look forward to flying with some of you. I will now bow out of the debate as it seems rather futile now.
The BACC knew what you would be taking on and tried to help.
I wish everyone joining from BMI the best of luck and look forward to flying with some of you. I will now bow out of the debate as it seems rather futile now.
The BACC knew what you would be taking on and tried to help.
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I don't have any friends.......
In BMI at least!! But listening to those of my BA colleagues that do it sounds like 99% of those coming over are good people who understand the inevitable outcome of this seniority discussion and are happy to usher in some stability
to their lives free of the sword of damocles perennially over their head believe the BMI joiners will go to the bottom of the MSL - I loose zero sleep over it, I fly happy and drive up and down the motorway smiling about what the future holds for all of us.
But my question is this for the 1% of BMIers stomping on about LH commands etc......
When you are sat next to me and contempories (FO Airbus) how is your dissatisfaction at the outcome going to manifest itself? IE are you gonna be miserable *****s festering in the knowledge that my LH command will come before yours?
Or will you say that's life, let's get to Lisbon and blow the froth off a couple?
If the former please let me know whilst we sip our Costas and I'll spare myself the agro of going through security.
Looking fwd to shaking the hands of and welcoming the aforementioned 99%
In BMI at least!! But listening to those of my BA colleagues that do it sounds like 99% of those coming over are good people who understand the inevitable outcome of this seniority discussion and are happy to usher in some stability
to their lives free of the sword of damocles perennially over their head believe the BMI joiners will go to the bottom of the MSL - I loose zero sleep over it, I fly happy and drive up and down the motorway smiling about what the future holds for all of us.
But my question is this for the 1% of BMIers stomping on about LH commands etc......
When you are sat next to me and contempories (FO Airbus) how is your dissatisfaction at the outcome going to manifest itself? IE are you gonna be miserable *****s festering in the knowledge that my LH command will come before yours?
Or will you say that's life, let's get to Lisbon and blow the froth off a couple?
If the former please let me know whilst we sip our Costas and I'll spare myself the agro of going through security.
Looking fwd to shaking the hands of and welcoming the aforementioned 99%
Last edited by Chief Brody; 13th Apr 2012 at 12:39.
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Given what is currently going on with BA/IAG's announcements about the future of the regional bases, I'd say those in BMI with high expectations of the 'consultation' should beware.
It seems the IAG management are out to prove their ruthlessness and intend on taking no prisoners or carry any extra load that cannot be justified to the accountants.
The announcements already made: closing all regional bases, notice for all staff in those bases regardless on MSL position. Getting rid of all TRI's and management pilots (cabin crew management too apparently) at LHR. It does not bode well...
Good luck to all involved it looks like they have a plan and it's not to make friends!
It seems the IAG management are out to prove their ruthlessness and intend on taking no prisoners or carry any extra load that cannot be justified to the accountants.
The announcements already made: closing all regional bases, notice for all staff in those bases regardless on MSL position. Getting rid of all TRI's and management pilots (cabin crew management too apparently) at LHR. It does not bode well...
Good luck to all involved it looks like they have a plan and it's not to make friends!
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No idea Anton.
I'm only repeating second hand information, but it seems that all BA want are line pilots so all those with training qualifications or management will be returned to the line.
It seems BA/IAG want all this sorted before any merger final date so redundancies come from BMI not BA.
The bypassing of LIFO for BMI staff is an interesting move but apparently all within TUPE legislation. Im no expert at all but another reading of TUPE apparently says If things are economically unviable, technically incompatible or operationally to the detriment of the new company there seems to be get out clauses for BA/IAG if they can prove that to be the case.
Regional bases are not part of BA's operation so could be in there, Embraers and A330's are technically incompatible and would require additional costs to bring to BA and economically maintaining the loss making BMI operation is not justifiable without wholesale changes. Who knows where they intend to wield the axe next?
This is all news to me but hearing how ruthlessly BA/IAG managment are implementing it makes me think they have a very clear plan that they are following through. I can't imagine they have done that without having it legally watertight. It's pretty shocking stuff and I fear for friends I have who are in BMI.
I hope the BMICC have some plans to somehow form a palatable outcome with a minimum of trauma. I think they'll have their work cut out but fingers firmly crossed for you all in BMI mainline, regional and baby.
I'm only repeating second hand information, but it seems that all BA want are line pilots so all those with training qualifications or management will be returned to the line.
It seems BA/IAG want all this sorted before any merger final date so redundancies come from BMI not BA.
The bypassing of LIFO for BMI staff is an interesting move but apparently all within TUPE legislation. Im no expert at all but another reading of TUPE apparently says If things are economically unviable, technically incompatible or operationally to the detriment of the new company there seems to be get out clauses for BA/IAG if they can prove that to be the case.
Regional bases are not part of BA's operation so could be in there, Embraers and A330's are technically incompatible and would require additional costs to bring to BA and economically maintaining the loss making BMI operation is not justifiable without wholesale changes. Who knows where they intend to wield the axe next?
This is all news to me but hearing how ruthlessly BA/IAG managment are implementing it makes me think they have a very clear plan that they are following through. I can't imagine they have done that without having it legally watertight. It's pretty shocking stuff and I fear for friends I have who are in BMI.
I hope the BMICC have some plans to somehow form a palatable outcome with a minimum of trauma. I think they'll have their work cut out but fingers firmly crossed for you all in BMI mainline, regional and baby.
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Mr Benip. With my post above you know as much as me.
I'm just passing along what I've heard amongst the rumour mill from goings on today and yesterday. The only definitive answers which will have total solidity will come direct to you from either your management, direct from BA or from the company councils.
Everything else, however well heard is still hearsay. Maybe even with wriggle room...who knows? I would not bet my mortgage on the information but neither will I be even slightly surprised if it is heard very widely soon.
The shocking part has been how ruthless BA/IAG are being. As I said above I hope there is a plan afoot to mitigate as much trauma as possible.
Jazzy
I'm just passing along what I've heard amongst the rumour mill from goings on today and yesterday. The only definitive answers which will have total solidity will come direct to you from either your management, direct from BA or from the company councils.
Everything else, however well heard is still hearsay. Maybe even with wriggle room...who knows? I would not bet my mortgage on the information but neither will I be even slightly surprised if it is heard very widely soon.
The shocking part has been how ruthless BA/IAG are being. As I said above I hope there is a plan afoot to mitigate as much trauma as possible.
Jazzy
