BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
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4468,
Well put - thanks.
Just one other point about the cost base.......everyone seems to directly equate 'cost base' to pilot's pay......actually it reflects the entire undertaking. Yes they will screw down every last they can, but the complete package has to be addressed.
BA might find benefit by paying more in one area for a double saving in another - optimistically all pilots should be trying to be in the former group.
Well put - thanks.
Just one other point about the cost base.......everyone seems to directly equate 'cost base' to pilot's pay......actually it reflects the entire undertaking. Yes they will screw down every last they can, but the complete package has to be addressed.
BA might find benefit by paying more in one area for a double saving in another - optimistically all pilots should be trying to be in the former group.
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4468
Of course the BACC have a vested interest. At some point the BMICC will cease to exist and it will be down to the BACC to pick up the pieces and deal with whatever it finds.
Your
wasn't required. If they follow your advice then I feel that your reps will be going in less prepared than they could be. Due diligence in this situation would include taking advice from the BACC, IMHO.
Please don't come back in a few weeks saying that the BACC have sold you down the river when you don't appear to be listening to their advice now.
Once again, good luck.
Of course the BACC have a vested interest. At some point the BMICC will cease to exist and it will be down to the BACC to pick up the pieces and deal with whatever it finds.
Your
wasn't required. If they follow your advice then I feel that your reps will be going in less prepared than they could be. Due diligence in this situation would include taking advice from the BACC, IMHO.Please don't come back in a few weeks saying that the BACC have sold you down the river when you don't appear to be listening to their advice now.
Once again, good luck.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Point of Order, Mr Speaker....
... and MUST be allowed to negotiate with their new employers.
You may be allowed an opportunity to negotiate with BA, you may not. In which case, if you're lucky I would suggest it's better to go in with a well reasoned and costed case. The BACC may be able to help you there.
Just one other point about the cost base.......everyone seems to directly equate 'cost base' to pilot's pay......actually it reflects the entire undertaking. Yes they will screw down every last they can, but the complete package has to be addressed.
BA might find benefit by paying more in one area for a double saving in another - optimistically all pilots should be trying to be in the former group.
BA might find benefit by paying more in one area for a double saving in another - optimistically all pilots should be trying to be in the former group.
Last edited by Human Factor; 10th Apr 2012 at 11:15.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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From a purely personnel point, I cannot for the life of me see that putting the 300 odd BMI pilots onto their correct places on the seniority list, based on their DOJ, will make any real difference to the 3300 BA pilots. The planned expansion of BA over the next few years and in the future will not leave any pilot disadvantaged.
There is only one, in my judgment, correct and lawful way of merging the workforces and that is DOJ (not seniority).
Please explain to me how a BMI pilot will be disadvantaged based on his or her current position (as the law requires) versus that in a pay and status protected position at the bottom of the BA MSL? I would like to know specifically any disadvantage reference bidding for monthly work or leave based upon their current position, bearing in mind that if commands can be protected, so can other aspects.
Further, I would like to know how you consider placing BMI pilots into the BA seniority list based upon their BMI date of joining will not disadvantage any existing BA pilots who will be below them on the list.
Finally, as you seem to separate DoJ from seniority, how do you propose to recognise one without recognising the other?
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101917 Thank you. Very enlightening.
Human Factor: Not only have the BMICC so far been unable to either 'negotiate' or 'consult' with their new employers, AFAIK they haven't even been allowed to 'listen'!!
That being the case, how are they supposed to make such a momentous decision for those they represent without even having all the facts??
Human Factor: Not only have the BMICC so far been unable to either 'negotiate' or 'consult' with their new employers, AFAIK they haven't even been allowed to 'listen'!!
That being the case, how are they supposed to make such a momentous decision for those they represent without even having all the facts??
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Human Factor: Not only have the BMICC so far been unable to either 'negotiate' or 'consult' with their new employers, AFAIK they haven't even been allowed to 'listen'!!
At the risk of repeating the above posters point...it is not a negotiation. It is a consultation. BA will meet with the CC , then go away and do what they want complying with the minimum that they can legally get away with.
Best get onto your CC reps to get them prepared.
Best get onto your CC reps to get them prepared.
I agree with 101917.
However, as the poster noted, this has not yet been properly challenged in UK Courts. It only takes one person to challenge any "deal" done, and the 300 vs 3000 becomes irrelevant.
The "majority" may well end up being shunted further down the seniority lists - although the Courts might also rule those lists to be unlawful.
Human Factor's questions need to be sorted out in the law courts. Until they are, I can't give a definitive response to those questions.
Interesting times.
However, as the poster noted, this has not yet been properly challenged in UK Courts. It only takes one person to challenge any "deal" done, and the 300 vs 3000 becomes irrelevant.
The "majority" may well end up being shunted further down the seniority lists - although the Courts might also rule those lists to be unlawful.
Human Factor's questions need to be sorted out in the law courts. Until they are, I can't give a definitive response to those questions.
Interesting times.
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It only takes one person to challenge any "deal" done
Risk/Reward:
Risk = Vast sums of personal wealth (as Balpa are not going to fund this).
Reward = A few places higher up a list that may be ruled illegal anyway.
Chances of success = 50/50 at best.
Yeah, go for it, knock yourselves out!!
Last edited by Super Stall; 10th Apr 2012 at 12:41.
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Risk = Vast sums of personal wealth (as Balpa are not going to fund this).
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The possible threat to the seniority system is the very reason why BA will comply with TUPE requirements by retaining BMI crew as a separate entity. - Totally removed from the current Master seniority List.
You cannot legally challenge something you are not part of, or not entitled thru TUPE to be part of.
It sounds as if the BMICC meeting with BA will be a bit like taking on the Death Star with a water pistol!
You cannot legally challenge something you are not part of, or not entitled thru TUPE to be part of.
It sounds as if the BMICC meeting with BA will be a bit like taking on the Death Star with a water pistol!
londonmet
Fair....where have you been living all these years.
Never mind the above arguments where pilots of a bankrupt company are trying to muscle in something that definitely isn't theirs to share.
Never mind the above arguments where pilots of a bankrupt company are trying to muscle in something that definitely isn't theirs to share.
Blimey LondonMet.....Haven't you been paying attention? BA will do only what is necessary in law, and as cheaply as possible. BA legal affairs will make sure it will also be legally watertight. If that means ring fencing the old BMI (like EOG when it started) then so be it. All boxes will be ticked, except the one that keeps BMI pilots happy.
I do not have any inside information, apart from having been present when Dan Air was purchased and EOG set up, however, I do hope that the majority of BMI pilots are not as naive as some posters on this thread otherwise they will not last 5 minutes in BA. We had some very bitter and upset people working for us for a long time after that takeover.
I do not have any inside information, apart from having been present when Dan Air was purchased and EOG set up, however, I do hope that the majority of BMI pilots are not as naive as some posters on this thread otherwise they will not last 5 minutes in BA. We had some very bitter and upset people working for us for a long time after that takeover.
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londonmet, that is all they would have been flying if BMI had stayed intact. With maybe a couple of A330s.
All BA pilots joining by the normal route (selection) are frozen for 5 years.
So, yes on two counts.
All BA pilots joining by the normal route (selection) are frozen for 5 years.
So, yes on two counts.
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Thanks for the replies everyone. Will be interesting to see how this one pans out then won't it! Also I wonder how those three stripers will feel loosing a stripe! I say all of this as an outsider it must be said!
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Stripes! Who gives a rats arse about stripes! They should be right up there with the type of aircraft that you fly - right at the top of the "I don't give a flying **** whatsoever" list. In my experience, the types who make this sort of sh1t their life priority are simply compensating for inabilities in areas that should be considered more pertinant! In this day and age job security, quality of life and a sense of feeling part of something worthwhile is everything in my book, which is why I couldn't have given a stuff about this little fact below in my pursuit to join BA.
As each day passes I get increasingly edgy about my chances. I would believe that the vast majority of bmi pilots are just more than happy with the fact that they will have jobs going forward. Being under the umbrella of one of the worlds largest airline groups may just be an added bonus. If there are infact a few bemoaning seniority, fleet transfers and a thinner epolete on their shoulders then politely wake up and smell the java! I say if because I simply can't get my head around the fact that this is actually going on?!
All BA pilots joining by the normal route (selection) are frozen for 5 years.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 10th Apr 2012 at 17:22.
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101917,
Thanks for the input. Would you mind expanding on a couple of points please?
You stated that having a separate ex BMI fleet of pilots within BA would effectively negate any threat of legal action, but that in your opinion, and mine incidentally, that that would be an invidious place to be, but that even if BMI pilots accepted a place at the bottom of the MSL, BA and the union would leave themselves open to individual or group action in the future. If I am correct in my interpretation of your post why would BA run that risk? Would there a legal way that you can see to get BMI pilots on the MSL, other than placing them their in DOJ order, if that is their desire?
Further, if BA did place BMI pilots on the MSL in DOJ order would that not leave BA open to action by pilots of former airlines?
Thank you in anticipation and apologies if I've misunderstood.
Thanks for the input. Would you mind expanding on a couple of points please?
You stated that having a separate ex BMI fleet of pilots within BA would effectively negate any threat of legal action, but that in your opinion, and mine incidentally, that that would be an invidious place to be, but that even if BMI pilots accepted a place at the bottom of the MSL, BA and the union would leave themselves open to individual or group action in the future. If I am correct in my interpretation of your post why would BA run that risk? Would there a legal way that you can see to get BMI pilots on the MSL, other than placing them their in DOJ order, if that is their desire?
Further, if BA did place BMI pilots on the MSL in DOJ order would that not leave BA open to action by pilots of former airlines?
Thank you in anticipation and apologies if I've misunderstood.
