BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
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Sudden Twang:
"MuttelyJ
It seems that this is no exception. Everything you've said about the bmi boys is
what your pilots already have with mixed fleet."
Er - yes, SuddenTwang, that was kinda the point of my post...
Joking apart though, the vast majority at BA will welcome those from bmi, and appreciate the bigger picture and the position you guys are in.
"MuttelyJ
It seems that this is no exception. Everything you've said about the bmi boys is
what your pilots already have with mixed fleet."
Er - yes, SuddenTwang, that was kinda the point of my post...
Joking apart though, the vast majority at BA will welcome those from bmi, and appreciate the bigger picture and the position you guys are in.
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What now?
Evening All,
It would seem that the next move in this game will be the BMICC talking to BA about what will happen after the money has changed hands. BA, we all know, would like to have any talks over quickly and start the process of integrating BMI into the BA operation. The question is how are they going to do that.
This TUPE business would appear to be good for BMI pilots as it means that their terms and conditions are respected, and rightly so, but increasingly from reading various posts on the subject, it may be a double edged sword.
BA bidline and any position on the BA MSL may not provide the entitlements that TUPE requires and that would of course leave BA open to legal action. The proposal that I'm picking up on would be that the future ex BMI pilots will remain as a separate group within the BA pilot work force and be rostered very similarly to the way that they currently are and even retain the routes that they currently operate, although I suspect that BA will not keep the 330s. A group that because of the BA pilots agreement, will be one that withers on the vine with all future recruitment being into mainline.
This would satisfy the TUPE requirement, negate the prospect of a legal challenge, allow economies of scale by using BA resources instead of Midland ones and yet not make the BMI pilots immune from further cost savings should they be required.
BA get what they want, the slots. No increase in costs, no danger of a legal challenge.
I think that that scenario is the one that the BACC have foreseen and wish that the BMICC avoid.
Before the inevitable accusations, I wish the BMI folks the best of luck. The BMICC seem to think that they will have a better chance negotiating with a BA team. We will see. I would hate to see them seize defeat from the jaws of victory. Is this an attempt to coerce the BMICC to agree unilaterally to what the BACC proposes? Of course not. They are there to do the best for their constituents, but if they represented me I would hope that they have a "Plan B".
I know that some will hope that their length of service for BMI will count as the same as if they had been working for BA all that time and can sympathise with those that don't want to start from scratch again, but the real danger from this is that you don't end up on the MSL at all. That would be fine if your retirement plans are in the next few years, but pretty disastrous if you plan to work beyond that.
Any way all the best, hope to fly with at least half of you soon and good luck to those in Baby and Regional.
It would seem that the next move in this game will be the BMICC talking to BA about what will happen after the money has changed hands. BA, we all know, would like to have any talks over quickly and start the process of integrating BMI into the BA operation. The question is how are they going to do that.
This TUPE business would appear to be good for BMI pilots as it means that their terms and conditions are respected, and rightly so, but increasingly from reading various posts on the subject, it may be a double edged sword.
BA bidline and any position on the BA MSL may not provide the entitlements that TUPE requires and that would of course leave BA open to legal action. The proposal that I'm picking up on would be that the future ex BMI pilots will remain as a separate group within the BA pilot work force and be rostered very similarly to the way that they currently are and even retain the routes that they currently operate, although I suspect that BA will not keep the 330s. A group that because of the BA pilots agreement, will be one that withers on the vine with all future recruitment being into mainline.
This would satisfy the TUPE requirement, negate the prospect of a legal challenge, allow economies of scale by using BA resources instead of Midland ones and yet not make the BMI pilots immune from further cost savings should they be required.
BA get what they want, the slots. No increase in costs, no danger of a legal challenge.
I think that that scenario is the one that the BACC have foreseen and wish that the BMICC avoid.
Before the inevitable accusations, I wish the BMI folks the best of luck. The BMICC seem to think that they will have a better chance negotiating with a BA team. We will see. I would hate to see them seize defeat from the jaws of victory. Is this an attempt to coerce the BMICC to agree unilaterally to what the BACC proposes? Of course not. They are there to do the best for their constituents, but if they represented me I would hope that they have a "Plan B".
I know that some will hope that their length of service for BMI will count as the same as if they had been working for BA all that time and can sympathise with those that don't want to start from scratch again, but the real danger from this is that you don't end up on the MSL at all. That would be fine if your retirement plans are in the next few years, but pretty disastrous if you plan to work beyond that.
Any way all the best, hope to fly with at least half of you soon and good luck to those in Baby and Regional.
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I think that that scenario is the one that the BACC have foreseen and wish that the BMICC avoid.
Anything else will most likely result in the BMI pilots receiving the bare minimum which TUPE requires (for example, no Bidline), which I am sure is not where they want to be - especially knowing it is avoidable with a bit of discussion.
Don't for a second think that legal challenges will work either. The BACC know from somewhat bitter experience that BA legal will have everything absolutely watertight.
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Well... my reading of what has gone so far is that bmiCC want to talk, but have only been met with dictate, so they have nothing to lose.
I basically agree with all above, but to quote some politician, "we are all in this together!".
I don't think that bmi pilots are expecting much but there is no need to jump up and down on their dignity either.
My fear is that, as with the politician, we will soon seen that some are "in this together" more than others.
I basically agree with all above, but to quote some politician, "we are all in this together!".
I don't think that bmi pilots are expecting much but there is no need to jump up and down on their dignity either.
My fear is that, as with the politician, we will soon seen that some are "in this together" more than others.
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Nobody is jumping up and down on anybodies dignity.
There was a window of opportunity for the CC with decades of experience dealing with BA management to help secure a 'with benefits deal' for the BMI guys. Their offer of help was turned down.
Sadly that window is now closing.
I honestly take no pleasure in 'I told you so's', because no pilot group will win from this.
I rather hoped this thread would just die.
There was a window of opportunity for the CC with decades of experience dealing with BA management to help secure a 'with benefits deal' for the BMI guys. Their offer of help was turned down.
Sadly that window is now closing.
I honestly take no pleasure in 'I told you so's', because no pilot group will win from this.
I rather hoped this thread would just die.
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It would appear the Bmi CC are very keen on talking but not so good at listening. Judging by the message they've sent to their members they still appear to be in a state of denial. Their victim mindset seems worryingly similar to that of the BASSA leadership and is likely to produce similar results. Meanwhile the rest of BA will have to deal with the ex-Bmi lot grumbling about their self-inflicted isolation.
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Hand,
I'm not saying that anything is one sided, but you have just proved my point!
There is a feeling that BA is telling bmi to shut up and be grateful.
The arguments in this regard are wide and various and bmi employees know them well, but if the boot were on the other foot........if it was BA being bought by someone bigger ( and not too long ago BA wasn't too healthy ) would you expect to be treated as the enemy or a fellow professional?
Everything I have read here says that the BA guys are telling the bmi guys the way it will be. Pilots have notoriously large egos and being 'told', is a red rag to bull. Humility ALROUND would be far more constructive.
BA has a status, but it isn't exclusively due to it's flight crew. bmi has had difficulties but not in anyway due it's flight crew.
We have all been through CRM training - is this atitude getting the best out of anyone?
I'm not saying that anything is one sided, but you have just proved my point!
There is a feeling that BA is telling bmi to shut up and be grateful.
The arguments in this regard are wide and various and bmi employees know them well, but if the boot were on the other foot........if it was BA being bought by someone bigger ( and not too long ago BA wasn't too healthy ) would you expect to be treated as the enemy or a fellow professional?
Everything I have read here says that the BA guys are telling the bmi guys the way it will be. Pilots have notoriously large egos and being 'told', is a red rag to bull. Humility ALROUND would be far more constructive.
BA has a status, but it isn't exclusively due to it's flight crew. bmi has had difficulties but not in anyway due it's flight crew.
We have all been through CRM training - is this atitude getting the best out of anyone?
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Anton,
I think it's the opposite. It's BA (CC) saying to BMI "let's talk now before it's too late".
Seniority is king in BA.
There is a feeling that BA is telling bmi to shut up and be grateful.
Seniority is king in BA.
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Charity begins at home Anton. The Bmi CC are asking for a lot of charity, especially when BA are not obliged to offer them any. The bone that's been thrown by the BACC has been thrown right back because the Bmi CC seem to expect the right to eat the BA pilots dinner. That may not be true of the majority of Bmi pilots but their company council seem to have no concept of the size of their ask.
If I may offer a bit of advice to the BMI CC and the BMI line pilots....
Listen to all the advice you possibly can...get legal advice and know what your bottom lines are. BA Flight Ops management are ruthless and quite brutal.
As someone senior on the 777 in BA, I have no skin in the game, I doubt more than a dozen pilots in BMI joined before I did. However, to last in UK aviation, and BA in particular, one needs to grow a thick skin or develop another coping mechanism. There is probably more bull**** in BA than you have been used to, except you don't have the camaraderie and small base friendliness to get you through it all.
You will be in for a big culture shock, no matter what happens. Prepare to be a number and nothing more.
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I hope your CC have a plan for dealing with the BA mgmt during the consultation process. BA's M.O will be to march in and tell you all how it is going to be. Prepare for the worst. I know that whatever the cheapest option is , is what BA will implement. BA flt ops don't do imagination.
Please don't come back on here in a month or so and moan about your lot. BALPA and various posters on here have been warning your CC for a while now.
Good luck....
p.s One of the reasons LHS long haul is so attractive in BA is the 20K a year pay increase for flying long haul rather than short haul.
p.p.s I suspect there wont be any outstations. You will be based at LHR. Many pilots wont want to move from NI or Scotland, hence LH suddenly starts to look attractive with a once a week commute.
None of this stuff is rocket science. I hope your CC are keeping you all informed in newsletters and on your company forum.
Listen to all the advice you possibly can...get legal advice and know what your bottom lines are. BA Flight Ops management are ruthless and quite brutal.
As someone senior on the 777 in BA, I have no skin in the game, I doubt more than a dozen pilots in BMI joined before I did. However, to last in UK aviation, and BA in particular, one needs to grow a thick skin or develop another coping mechanism. There is probably more bull**** in BA than you have been used to, except you don't have the camaraderie and small base friendliness to get you through it all.
You will be in for a big culture shock, no matter what happens. Prepare to be a number and nothing more.
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I hope your CC have a plan for dealing with the BA mgmt during the consultation process. BA's M.O will be to march in and tell you all how it is going to be. Prepare for the worst. I know that whatever the cheapest option is , is what BA will implement. BA flt ops don't do imagination.
Please don't come back on here in a month or so and moan about your lot. BALPA and various posters on here have been warning your CC for a while now.
Good luck....
p.s One of the reasons LHS long haul is so attractive in BA is the 20K a year pay increase for flying long haul rather than short haul.
p.p.s I suspect there wont be any outstations. You will be based at LHR. Many pilots wont want to move from NI or Scotland, hence LH suddenly starts to look attractive with a once a week commute.
None of this stuff is rocket science. I hope your CC are keeping you all informed in newsletters and on your company forum.
Last edited by hunterboy; 9th Apr 2012 at 21:33.
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I'm not close enough to know for sure but even your last comment is designed to provoke.
Everyone knows that BA flight deck think that seniority is king - perhaps that is the problem....perhaps seniority isn't everything, perhaps Willie will use it against all flight deck when he can, perhaps a little broadening of the BA concept of seniority would help everyone. Seniority lists have certainly cost ALL flight dearly over the years.
Total intransegence on the BA concept of seniorty is the sticking point. bmi guys don't expect to depose anybodies seniority rights, but they don't expect to be treated like scum either.
I haven't heard a proposal from any BA person which doesn't make any bmi flight deck feel like he or she has been dumped at the bottom - as I said - how about using CRM, thinking around the problem and expressing it in a less belittling way. Mutual professionals don't deserve it.
Hunterboy - my fears and expectations exactly - thanks for putting the perspective straight. ( it also explains why, as a lower cost base option, bmiCC prefer to talk to the management directly, although I not convinced they are up to the task )
Everyone knows that BA flight deck think that seniority is king - perhaps that is the problem....perhaps seniority isn't everything, perhaps Willie will use it against all flight deck when he can, perhaps a little broadening of the BA concept of seniority would help everyone. Seniority lists have certainly cost ALL flight dearly over the years.
Total intransegence on the BA concept of seniorty is the sticking point. bmi guys don't expect to depose anybodies seniority rights, but they don't expect to be treated like scum either.
I haven't heard a proposal from any BA person which doesn't make any bmi flight deck feel like he or she has been dumped at the bottom - as I said - how about using CRM, thinking around the problem and expressing it in a less belittling way. Mutual professionals don't deserve it.
Hunterboy - my fears and expectations exactly - thanks for putting the perspective straight. ( it also explains why, as a lower cost base option, bmiCC prefer to talk to the management directly, although I not convinced they are up to the task )
Last edited by Anton du Flasheart; 9th Apr 2012 at 21:43.
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Anton,
Please stop with your constant tirade of "CRM..CRM..CRM". BMI pilots have no reason to feel like scum. Nobody is making them feel like this, so maybe they don't actually feel like this?
Maybe it's the fact that if it wasn't for IAG then it would be the bankruptcy? All the people I know in BA want the best for BMI pilots but they're very aware of what they'd be up against if it wasn't for IAG.
Please stop with your constant tirade of "CRM..CRM..CRM". BMI pilots have no reason to feel like scum. Nobody is making them feel like this, so maybe they don't actually feel like this?
Total intransegence on the BA concept of seniorty is the sticking point.
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Anton, as you suggest, seniority and the BA pilots reliance on it is central to our lifestyle. Fleet, seat, trips and consequently days off are all a function of seniority. A system which inherently assumes equality, as the only differentiation between pilots is their time in BA. Meritocracy and age, who you know or how much of a "company" man you are have no input into the system. There is complete transparency as to why I'm currently working next weekend and my colleague is not. Or why my command is one decade rather than a year away and is uninfluenced by whether a base Captain deems me suitable (not suggesting that's the case in BMI, but it is in some non seniority based operators).
If you choose to remove the focus, and in your opinion over reliance on seniority as a measure. What do you think should replace it?
If you choose to remove the focus, and in your opinion over reliance on seniority as a measure. What do you think should replace it?
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Anton seems full of contradictions! Bmi pilots don't want to depose BA pilots if their seniority but want zippered seniority on joining? The two are mutually exclusive! Bmi pilots don't want to be seen as the enemy but see themselves as a 'lower cost option'?! Let me disabuse you of that notion. Bmi pilots are not a lower cost option. They are not an option at all. They are an administrative problem that BA is legally obliged to deal with. There will be no expansion of the Bmi group after integration, you will never be big enough or cheap enough to make it worth BAs while to fight the main body of employees. If you think that BA pilots are treating you like scum then it's time to man up because your toys are gonna be launched into outer space when you see how IAG will treat you!!
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No Walkover,
One of the problems of this medium is the difficulty in gauging someones attitude.
Your posting suggests a very heartfelt and reasoned approach and for that thank you. My response is intended in a similar tone.
BA have a limited time to integrate. The joint bmi/ BA operation must be turned around into profit making in a very short timescale. The consultation period therefore will be brief.
The BACC have already negotiated a deal for BA pilots they know exactly what stance BA will take.
The BACC have demonstrated innovative and effective negotiating skills with BA for quite a while they also recognise the resultant deal the bmicc achieve will be their problem to deal with in the near future.
The issue of same length of service with the same paypoint isn't going to happen. BA from the outset have stated that they won't increase bmi pay. A significant number of bmi capts would be on pp24 then could Hoover up the 380 commands and take a pretty large payrise.
Any prospect let alone the threats and thinly veiled threats of court cases will have the bmi guys on a separate roster and seniority system. That may suit the senior guys but would not be so good for those more junior.
I echo your concerns for other groups of staff.
One of the problems of this medium is the difficulty in gauging someones attitude.
Your posting suggests a very heartfelt and reasoned approach and for that thank you. My response is intended in a similar tone.
BA have a limited time to integrate. The joint bmi/ BA operation must be turned around into profit making in a very short timescale. The consultation period therefore will be brief.
The BACC have already negotiated a deal for BA pilots they know exactly what stance BA will take.
The BACC have demonstrated innovative and effective negotiating skills with BA for quite a while they also recognise the resultant deal the bmicc achieve will be their problem to deal with in the near future.
The issue of same length of service with the same paypoint isn't going to happen. BA from the outset have stated that they won't increase bmi pay. A significant number of bmi capts would be on pp24 then could Hoover up the 380 commands and take a pretty large payrise.
Any prospect let alone the threats and thinly veiled threats of court cases will have the bmi guys on a separate roster and seniority system. That may suit the senior guys but would not be so good for those more junior.
I echo your concerns for other groups of staff.
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Well... my reading of what has gone so far is that bmiCC want to talk, but have only been met with dictate, so they have nothing to lose.
There are a group of people (the BACC) who have vast experience of dealing with BA and know exactly how to deal with them. Tradition dictates that for the best outcome, it often pays to listen to the experts.
I'll say this again for the hard of reading:
The proposals on the table are the BEST which the BACC have been able to come up with for the BMI pilots which will not add any additional costs for BA. BA WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY SOLUTION WHICH INCREASES THEIR COSTS!!
Edit: To quote our illustrious company chairman (now deputy chairman of IAG) - "If you aren't at the table, you're probably on the menu."
Last edited by Human Factor; 10th Apr 2012 at 08:13.
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My reading of this is frustration from the BACC who want to help the BMICC, to bring them up to speed and confront BA with a joint proposal.
Not sure why the BMICC would want to face negotiations unprepared? Surely having background info on your 'opponent' is a good idea before talks?
The term 'consultation' wrt TUPE may come as a rude surprise when it turns out to be BA telling it like it's going to be. It didn't have to be quite that way.
Anton says that we are in this together, I don't think that's correct, BMI pilots are not in yet.
Best of luck to all BMI pilots in the next few days.
Not sure why the BMICC would want to face negotiations unprepared? Surely having background info on your 'opponent' is a good idea before talks?
The term 'consultation' wrt TUPE may come as a rude surprise when it turns out to be BA telling it like it's going to be. It didn't have to be quite that way.
Anton says that we are in this together, I don't think that's correct, BMI pilots are not in yet.
Best of luck to all BMI pilots in the next few days.
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FWIW
I can absolutely see that the BMICC could be considered as negligent, if they reached a binding agreement with the BACC before even meeting with their new employers!!! That suggestion seems neither sensible nor reasonable to me. The BMICC are the elected representatives of BMI pilots, and MUST be allowed to negotiate with their new employers, BEFORE reaching any recommendations. Perhaps we could call it 'due diligence'???
The BACC do indeed appear sensible negotiators, and may well have much to offer by way of knowledge of 'the opposition'. However they also have an agenda, and an outcome which they prefer. A vested interest which seems to conflict with the BMICC's. An absolute cast iron commitment to their electorate that 'No BA pilot will be disadvantaged'!
The BMICC must feel that a gun is being held to their heads! Certainly damned if they do, and almost certainly damned if they don't! In their shoes, I don't see any alternative to the 'almost' route. At least they will always be able to say they examined every possibility, and they owe their members that!
In any event whatever goes on in the discussions later this week, it is IAG/BA who are holding the purse strings, NOT the BACC, who will not be included in those initial discussions.
I have no idea what the BMICC, with skilled negotiation, may or may not be able to achieve? Neither does anyone else. Yet!
Depending on how BA wish to play this, they could be in a worryingly powerful position here. To the detriment of all pilots!
I can absolutely see that the BMICC could be considered as negligent, if they reached a binding agreement with the BACC before even meeting with their new employers!!! That suggestion seems neither sensible nor reasonable to me. The BMICC are the elected representatives of BMI pilots, and MUST be allowed to negotiate with their new employers, BEFORE reaching any recommendations. Perhaps we could call it 'due diligence'???
The BACC do indeed appear sensible negotiators, and may well have much to offer by way of knowledge of 'the opposition'. However they also have an agenda, and an outcome which they prefer. A vested interest which seems to conflict with the BMICC's. An absolute cast iron commitment to their electorate that 'No BA pilot will be disadvantaged'!
The BMICC must feel that a gun is being held to their heads! Certainly damned if they do, and almost certainly damned if they don't! In their shoes, I don't see any alternative to the 'almost' route. At least they will always be able to say they examined every possibility, and they owe their members that!
In any event whatever goes on in the discussions later this week, it is IAG/BA who are holding the purse strings, NOT the BACC, who will not be included in those initial discussions.
I have no idea what the BMICC, with skilled negotiation, may or may not be able to achieve? Neither does anyone else. Yet!
Depending on how BA wish to play this, they could be in a worryingly powerful position here. To the detriment of all pilots!
Last edited by 4468; 10th Apr 2012 at 09:32.
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4468,
I agree in general with some of your comments and in any other merger type situation what you suggest may be considered a reasonable sequence of events. But you seem to be ignoring the fact that BA and its managers are under an enormous amount of pressure to sort BMI out before the cash haemorrhage starts dragging down the parent company.
At the end of the meeting this week Willie will be on the phone to Kieth. He will want to know what's been decided. Now which is more likely?
(a) "Sorry Willie, the pilot chaps haven't come to an agreement yet, so I've sent them off to have another go. They're going to debate the situation ad nauseam on internet forums and maybe even have a vote on it. It's going to be a few weeks yet I'm afraid."
or
(b) "The BMI chaps can't agree with our chaps, so I've put them on a standalone fleet, rostered by Carmen (bit of a result there Willie!) and we've now ample opportunity to make additional savings."
Which do think Willie would be happier about?
You are correct about who holds the purse strings. In the management brief a couple of weeks ago it was stated time and time again that BMI's cost base will not be allowed to rise 1 penny. It simply adds to the purchase price and compounds the problem.
From what I've read you guys and girls at BMI seem to have been very unhappy with your management. You seem to think you've now found a benevolent employer who is going to generously shower you with goodies. NOTHING could be further from the truth. You only have to look at far as Mixed Fleet to see what the company is capable of when given a blank sheet of paper. The reason will still have what we have is down to Balpa.
Please dont be a blank sheet of paper.
I agree in general with some of your comments and in any other merger type situation what you suggest may be considered a reasonable sequence of events. But you seem to be ignoring the fact that BA and its managers are under an enormous amount of pressure to sort BMI out before the cash haemorrhage starts dragging down the parent company.
At the end of the meeting this week Willie will be on the phone to Kieth. He will want to know what's been decided. Now which is more likely?
(a) "Sorry Willie, the pilot chaps haven't come to an agreement yet, so I've sent them off to have another go. They're going to debate the situation ad nauseam on internet forums and maybe even have a vote on it. It's going to be a few weeks yet I'm afraid."
or
(b) "The BMI chaps can't agree with our chaps, so I've put them on a standalone fleet, rostered by Carmen (bit of a result there Willie!) and we've now ample opportunity to make additional savings."
Which do think Willie would be happier about?
You are correct about who holds the purse strings. In the management brief a couple of weeks ago it was stated time and time again that BMI's cost base will not be allowed to rise 1 penny. It simply adds to the purchase price and compounds the problem.
From what I've read you guys and girls at BMI seem to have been very unhappy with your management. You seem to think you've now found a benevolent employer who is going to generously shower you with goodies. NOTHING could be further from the truth. You only have to look at far as Mixed Fleet to see what the company is capable of when given a blank sheet of paper. The reason will still have what we have is down to Balpa.
Please dont be a blank sheet of paper.