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BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

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BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

Old 4th Apr 2012, 18:08
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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757,
Pleased to a little more balanced view coming out.

One thing I don't understand though......the prevailing BA view seems to be that all bmi pilots will want to chase LH seats, why? I know that the middle east is too far for many of them - they will not threaten a LH seat in any way.
Not everyone regards 747 LH as the pinicle of a career. I think that there may be an easier middle ground than some think if only there can be some mutual respect.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 19:32
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I don't believe that for a second.

A load of the Cityflyer guys said the exact same thing Anton, and most (I'm guessing about 80%ish, but willing to be corrected) are now co pilots on LH.

It remains to be seen, but I'd be willing to bet the same thing will happen with the bmi guys despite what you say. Most of the bmi guys I'm guessing won't have done much LH, and it's safe to say that BA longhaul is very different to what the others will have done in bmi.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 19:51
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Anton,

If the majority of BMI guys don`t want a longhaul command at BA then why all the fuss and veiled threats of legal action if they are not parachuted into the msl in a postion to be eligible for such commands? You can`t have it both ways.!
Another way of looking at a seniority list is as a queue. Many of us have waited many years in BA for our "turn" to come. Why should, in all fairness, that be put possibly completely out of reach for me in my remaining career with BA (and all that means for take home pay, pension etc), by several hundred ex-Bmi guys effectively queue-jumping ahead?
And the oft quoted mantra of "all sharing in the future growth" may make a good soundbite, but it is expectation only at this time and several years away at least from realisation. Of course, any shock to the airline industry could see such expectations pushed many more years from fruition. Way past my retirement freeze window.
So yes, of course I expect the BMI cc to do the best for those it represents. But let`s be honest. There is no solution that will suit everyone, or pass each individual`s personal "fairness" test.
One more point. Talk of being"stuck at the bottom of the list" makes as much sense as saying "being stuck at BMI". ie a perfectly good position to be in dressed up as "unfainess".
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 19:58
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Could the purchase of BCAL by BA provide a precedence? In 1988 BA paid £250m for BCAL. The MMC and EU insisted that BA gave up 5000 annual slot pairs at LGW (approx 14/day). The seniority lists were combined, with the BCAL pilots slotting in to the BA list using their BCAL DOJ.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 20:14
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Anton. With all due respect to my BMI colleagues. Flying a narrow body, wheezy A321 to a ****hole in africa or the near east to stay for 48 hours, is NOT longhaul.
I think i'm in 7th heaven on the 767 but even that isn't real "BA" longhaul. Once the BMI guys see what is on offer at BA LH lifestyle-wise you will get flattened in the stampeed to join the LH fleets. And if they don't want longhaul then why all this fuss to join the top of the list?

I really think BMICC are better off negotiating the details around resonable expectations, rather than following a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Lets not forget in the mean time that BMI are pissing 1 million A DAY, down the toilet, so IAG aren't going to sit around negotiatig details for very long. Its in everyones interest that this is solved quickly and reasonably.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 20:59
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Ahem. It's 1/2 a million a day.

Don't worry though, once we're all part of BA, we'll have the place licked into shape soon enough. No need to thank us.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:04
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Well I hoped that there was a little moderation! I was trying to hold out a friendly hand and you just bit it!
To make it clear - I, for one, have flown as long haul as you can fly. It is NOT all it is cracked up to be, and there is no agreement for service that could change that.
To correct another mis illusion - when bmi started flying BMed routes there was extreme negativity - it soon changed - min night stoppers soon changed to max just for the chance to go to a '**** hole'. Mid haul is a best kept secret - make no mistake.
If you hate them so much perhaps you could arrange a danger money bonus for me to continue flying to '**** holes'. Problem solved!
"And if they don't want longhaul then why all this fuss to join the top of the list?" is indeed my point.
I am by no means an exception. Although I accept that there is a significant proportion who would appreciate LH, it is a long long way for ALL.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:23
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Flying a narrow body, wheezy A321 to a ****hole in africa or the near east to stay for 48 hours, is NOT longhaul.

And beyond!

Longhaul has many definitions.

Moscow might seem an odd one to bmi pilots. What were the BHX-JFK and GLA-JFK 757 ops classed as? And if the A321 is a "wheezy narrowbody" what do you call a 32 seater A318 doing 7 hour transatlantics?

An A321 may seem an odd plane to take long distance but it burns a fraction of the wide-bodies. Look how many American carriers now regularly use 757s out of Heathrow.

Not intended to fan the flames but to fly from London to the border of China, nightstop 24h or 48h, and do the return is hardly a shorthaul op is it?
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:27
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It would certainly take very deep pockets to even attempt to prove otherwise, with absolutely no guarantee that the outcome would be in your favour.
I am not advocating it goes down the legal route but I do not think it would take very deep pockets to make the legal challenge. It will only take one person, BALPA member or not to have a punt at it. Most people have legal protection on their house insurance. I would bet a fiver that it would be good enough to get the legal ball rolling.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:28
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What is a "mis illusion"?

Is that another load of Rather like the "Big Society Bank" (free hand outs to housing societies and lesbian child minders)? Or "Negative Equity" (debt)?

Just wondering. Or is it quoted in the BMI Ops Manual Part "A"?
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:33
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MSL-Anton

There's no moderation needed. BMI is bankrupt, skint, an ex-parrot, bought for the slots it owns-nothing more. The BA pilot force have given all they should (£10million in savings) to stop BMI being fed to the wolves. BA management are a clever bunch. BACC know this very well but have always taken the middle ground and told the pilots it represents the (sometimes) unpalatable truth. Consequently BA still has the best lifestyle/rewards around.

If BMICC don't heed these warnings and take their wish list to BA they'll soon find out that in this game BA own both the bat and the ball.

Bcal in '88 were integrated into the MSL on the ratio of the pilots they brought in. What a whining lot they turned out to be-even though captains stayed on salary but were in the RHS and the F/O's were able to bid onto anything they wished for.

757Driver has it about right. If one pilot joins above him on the MSL he's being disadvantaged in large measure by virtue of the seniority system that rules BA pilot's lives. More joining above however 'democratically' adjusted simply makes matters worse . He's already going to lose out in the staff travel arena if original BMI DOJ applies without shoving the broom even further.

BMI should be thankful they're still employed and if they don't like the new Terms & Conditions, perhaps they could discuss it with their colleagues at BMIr or BMIb and see if anyone would care to swap positions.
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 21:58
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Anton - don't get stressed, my tongue is firmly in my cheek.
I was merely making the point that you said that many BMI pilots won't want LH as their current MH is not their cup of tea. BA LH is a world apart from BMI MH and most, if not all, will jump at the chance to do it. Why do you think there are many 747 FO's in BA who could have an A320 command right near the top of the list?

I've also flown to many of the BMI Sh**tholes in my previous airline and there are a few of them I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever want to see again!

Longhaul isn't just about distance. I've done the BMI "border of china" route in a 757 and it is a "long" flight. However the operation is a world apart from BA longhaul. I'm only just getting to grips with how good it is flying Longhaul in BA and what I get on the 767 is a fraction of whats available.
And FWIW I will hapily give you danger money to keep those routes! And I'll keep mine thanks!
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 23:23
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quick question from a lurker.

is the £10m often quoted, partly due to pp34 or independent of?
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Old 4th Apr 2012, 23:38
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What is basically happening here is BMI pilots are coming along and saying "Hello, we've just arrived and we'd like to skip the queue for LH, is that ok?". The reply from BA pilots is " sorry, No, that's not going to happen". The result - we're being branded as selfish/childish/unreasonable etc...

Let's be brutally honest. This takeover is only possible because BA is a profitable, successful company. One of the fundamental reasons that is the case is that (through an intelligent, reasonable and realistic BACC) we have taken one cut after another to our T&Cs to ensure OUR company is in a strong position going forward. A significant number of pilots at BA have left good jobs at other companies (BMI included) to enable them contribute and hence be a part of BA's successful future and all that that holds.

What's being proposed here is an opportunistic attempt from BMI pilots to secure career progression that they never could have dreamed of had their company actually been financially viable. I know quite a number of people who have worked for companies that were far more successful than BMI, yet they were made redundant and have ended up scattered all over the globe. BMI pilots work for an absolute financial basket case of a company yet they are being allowed to retain their current T&Cs and career prospects at a London base. I don't begrudge them this but they need to realise that they are very lucky to do so. We have a hold pool full pilots (many with decades of experience) who have busted their asses to try and join BA SH PP1 - yet BMI pilots are going to join ahead of them and potentially see them time-out in the hold pool. There are quite a few people who would see that as unfair.

There will ultimately be new opportunities generated when BA converts some of the ex-BMI slots to longhaul - but those opportunities will have been earned and paid for by BA pilots. Hence BA pilots will have first bite of the cherry.

Sorry to be blunt but this 'hard done by' attitude being portrayed by some of the luckiest pilots in the UK is ridiculous.

P.S. - if given BMI DOJ, 95%+ of ex-BMI pilots would be bidding for 777/747 ASAP. Pretty much fact.

Last edited by BusDriverLHR; 5th Apr 2012 at 00:13.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 00:18
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fact or pretty much fact?
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 00:41
  #236 (permalink)  
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I'd say fact. It certainly looks that way if you look at the seniority number you need to achieve RHS L/H. Approx 2700 as of last year. There are very few pilots above this seniority no. that remain on S/H. Those that do, do so for personal reasons i.e. young family, prefer life control, but they are certainly in the minority. The bidpacks issued every month on Airbus & 737 fleets confirm these numbers, this is not merely my opinion, it is indeed FACT. Once people complete their 5 year engagement freeze, almost everyone bids for 747/777.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 01:38
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Interesting

Fairness depends on what side of the fence you are, many people are not interested in fairness just getting what the law decrees they are due, although to certain extent TUPE deals with fairness. A few BMI pilots will have flown 320 in BA colours years ago when they were with BMed on the franchise. The pilots are just the pawns, the game is getting the best you can for yourself.
Should there be too many pilots at the end of this then redundancies should come proportionately from current BA as well as BMI pilots, now that will be interesting as LIFO is probably illegal too!

Last edited by BMed Boy; 5th Apr 2012 at 06:08.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 07:06
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Should there be too many pilots at the end of this then redundancies should come proportionately from current BA as well as BMI pilots, now that will be interesting as LIFO is probably illegal too!

Is that a joke???

I really don't want to see redundancies at the end of this. I'd even entertain a temporary pay-cut to carry a surplus of pilots until they are required. But if redundancies are required, there is no room for discussion on where they will come from.

No BA pilot will be losing their job to protect the job of someone who chose to remain working for BMI right until the bitter end. Redundancies will be actioned from the BMI group pre-integration to deal with any surplus. I can't believe I'm having to say this. If you believe otherwise you really are living in la-la land.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 07:28
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Do some reading bus driver.

I'm not in la-la land matey, you should look at the legal realities here and not just your own smug position.

TUPE and redundancy
Dismissals on the grounds of redundancy are permitted by TUPE, as they will normally be for an ETO reason, although the new employer will need to make sure that the redundancy is fair within other employment legislation: eg. selection for redundancy is fair, and not based simply on the fact that the person is a transferred employee.
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Old 5th Apr 2012, 07:40
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you should look at the legal realities here and not just your own smug position.
I'm not feeling smug at all matey. I take no pleasure in seeing others lose their jobs. I've seen it before and its a really crappy experience. But it's time some people opened their eyes to the reality of what's going to happen here.

selection for redundancy is fair, and not based simply on the fact that the person is a transferred employee.
Hence why redundancies will (if necessary, unfortunately looks likely) be actioned prior to integration. Whether they use LIFO, BMI-Mainline DOJ or BMI-Group DOJ is unknown to me.
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