BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)
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So, if there were to be a legal challenge, what would the likely outcome be? The destruction of the BA MSL? Actually BA would love that, it would kill Bidline stone dead and all other seniority based bidding. So the BMI guys would probably not get those LH commands they want as it would cost BA money they would not need to spend, also they would not get Bidline and the lifestyle improvements it represents. Commands would be at BA's discretion - upgrades could easily become dependent on how good your golf score was when you last played with the Chief Pilot.
All the above is deliberately overdramatic, but when entering into a legal dispute it is important that one has a very clear understanding of where it will take you. Often the only winners are the lawyers and the end result is seldom the panacea being sought.
All the above is deliberately overdramatic, but when entering into a legal dispute it is important that one has a very clear understanding of where it will take you. Often the only winners are the lawyers and the end result is seldom the panacea being sought.
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I do love this one! They're gonna sue BA because they haven't been given something they're not legally entitled to? Nice one! The first sign of trouble and BA will stick them all on a standalone, basic TUPE fleet to whither on the vine. it really won't be worth BAs trouble to offer anything more.
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Hypothetical scenario
To resolve the differences in aspirations BALPA arranges a meeting between the BACC and the bmiCC: they act as brokers / intermediaries.
The negotiations go to and fro: BA want the bmi crews in at the bottom of the list: the bmi crews want integration based on seniority.
Outcome: the BA view prevails and the bmi pilots all go on to the bottom of the list with the proviso that a fleet change for an existing bmi Captain means a seat change and re-role as an FO.
Except that, the bmiCC get the transfer to the fleet they want, in their current rank and keep it sine die.
BALPA sign up the whole shebang and announce everyone is happy with the concluded negotiated position.
The negotiations go to and fro: BA want the bmi crews in at the bottom of the list: the bmi crews want integration based on seniority.
Outcome: the BA view prevails and the bmi pilots all go on to the bottom of the list with the proviso that a fleet change for an existing bmi Captain means a seat change and re-role as an FO.
Except that, the bmiCC get the transfer to the fleet they want, in their current rank and keep it sine die.
BALPA sign up the whole shebang and announce everyone is happy with the concluded negotiated position.
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The first sign of trouble and BA will stick them all on a standalone, basic TUPE fleet to whither on the vine. it really won't be worth BAs trouble to offer anything more.
BMI crew on a standalone basis might be a thorn in the side of BA pilots but how do you think BA will recover the costs associated with the purchase of BMI? Standing alone with no protection from TUPE, the ex-BMI pilots will be bending over and waiting for the cricket bat before you can blink.
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Completely incorrect ScotPilot. BA already operate one 'standalone' fleet of circa 300 pilots, our Gateick operation. No massive costs there. A Bmi standalone operation would simply be adding 300 blind line holders to an administrative sub-fleet at LHR - cheap and easy. The decision to integrate the Bmi assets has already been taken by IAG. That means all the flying comes under the BA Scope agreement. BA have agreed to that because they know they'll never make enough savings by running BA-light to justify the cost of the unrest from their major pilot group. Park the idea that Bmi will start growing within BA, it's not going to happen.
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Just as I predicted both sides are at each others throats. With 20ish new L/H routes thats about 200 extra L/H commands needed (10 crews per a/c) That is about 2/3rds of the potential joiners, (some of the joining Capts I predict will leave. when terms are explained) some sense of the potential benefits for all needs to be considered. I just hope the two CCs can reach a sensible understanding. To produce a thorn within BA would just play into managements hands, We all saw what happened at EOG and the years of debate that took place. Bidline was only saved by making a separate fleet with a unique scheduling process. I was on the BACC at that time & realise now we could have played it better. There is only one true enemy, & its not your fellow pilots.
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Are you sure about your numbers Walnut? 20 new LH routes not only seems much higher than BA are estimating (only 20% of bmis original 56 slots were considered suitable for longhaul expansion), but they'd be literally years away and dependent on a favourable economic climate. Also you may require 10 crews for a long haul airframe but you've already got 5+ crews for the existing shorthaul airframe. Talk of huge expansion in pilot numbers is premature and they may never materialise.
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(only 20% of bmis original 56 slots were considered suitable for longhaul expansion)
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The bmi pilots' DoJ will be the same as it is now. Under a TUPE transfer there is deemed to be continuity of service so the DoJ remains unchanged.
Last edited by BusDriverLHR; 2nd Apr 2012 at 19:21.
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Do you know what. I get the feeling that the BA crews are getting an awful lot more wound up about this than everyone in bmi.
As already said, most bmi crews are more interested in continuing to pay their mortgages rather than exactly where they end up in a damned seniority list.
As already said, most bmi crews are more interested in continuing to pay their mortgages rather than exactly where they end up in a damned seniority list.
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I rarely post but read occasionally for entertainment, the bullets are certainly flying aren't they? The comments so far appear to suggest a rather toxic undercurrent
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The BA MSL is not in DoJ order in a number of areas for a number of reasons. DoJ and seniority are not inextricably linked. The bmi pilots who join under a TUPE transfer will maintain their bmi DoJ for anything that uses a DoJ for reference.
The question referred to DoJ, so that answer was given. Unfortunately, some people seem unable to focus on anything other than their position on the seniority list, regardless of what it brings them. This is rather unimaginitive, rather short term and rather sad.
The question referred to DoJ, so that answer was given. Unfortunately, some people seem unable to focus on anything other than their position on the seniority list, regardless of what it brings them. This is rather unimaginitive, rather short term and rather sad.
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Bmi pilots will retain their Bmi date of joining for TUPE purposes. That relates to severance, maternity pay, statutory rights, etc etc. Seniority lists are an entirely different proposition. Seniority lists are entirely unrelated to TUPE. TUPE protects, it doesn't enhance.