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BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

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BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

Old 31st Mar 2012, 18:54
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Fair play Callsign Kilo and from your posting, I can see that no harm was intended on your part.

Fingers crossed this can all be worked through swiftly and as previously mentioned by looking at the fact that there IS potential for a huge medium to long term ADVANTAGES to many and not focussing on the very subjective and transient DISADVANTAGES to a few.

Now that LH and IAG can take a deep breath after the EU news, both parties but espcially LH should be looking at serious options for Baby and Regional. These companies have REAL potential. Lufty need to really pull out all the stops to consider every possible option, rather than resting on laurels now that the LHR deal is secured.

Perhaps they have been working hard behind the scenes, if so they need to be communicating this more regularly with the staff. These are loyal hardworking professionals who have maintained the exisiting BMI reputation as a major UK player in the airline industry and they deserve better.
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 19:17
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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One might say life isn't fair. The BA response to a threat of legal challenge to seniority will be a standalone ex-midland fleet, Carmen rostered, no right of transfer, grandfather rights to command. Exactly what TUPE promises. It's not in BAs interests to get involved in a legal battle to bring you benefits beyond those which TUPE requires. You are pointing an empty gun at BAs head and they know it.
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 19:48
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

Originally Posted by No walkover View Post
Fair play Callsign Kilo and from your posting, I can see that no harm was intended on your part.

Fingers crossed this can all be worked through swiftly and as previously mentioned by looking at the fact that there IS potential for a huge medium to long term ADVANTAGES to many and not focussing on the very subjective and transient DISADVANTAGES to a few.

Now that LH and IAG can take a deep breath after the EU news, both parties but espcially LH should be looking at serious options for Baby and Regional. These companies have REAL potential. Lufty need to really pull out all the stops to consider every possible option, rather than resting on laurels now that the LHR deal is secured.

Perhaps they have been working hard behind the scenes, if so they need to be communicating this more regularly with the staff. These are loyal hardworking professionals who have maintained the exisiting BMI reputation as a major UK player in the airline industry and they deserve better.
Let's face it. DLH had ample opportunity to fight the BMI corner once they took the group on. Radical changes were required at the outset to stem the massive losses. Nothing substantial was done and now look at where we are. DLH only have their own interests at heart now, as do IAG. They are out to do the best for their shareholders, they couldn't give a damn about the people working for baby or regional. The bottom line is profit. Losses interest nobody.

Originally Posted by No walkover
The real discussion point though should be about how to make Baby and Regional attractive options to potential purchasers or even to BA in order to minimise job losses.
Bare in mind that this isn't a sale of baby. Prospective suitors will be paid to take the company on! Nobody seems to be jumping up to take baby, even though this is the case. The last communication from the MD of baby was certainly of a very neutral tone compared to his previous upbeat, "it'll happen next week" e-mails. As negative as it sounds, sadly, I think it is fairly indicative of where things are going. If a winter schedule isn't on sale for baby soon, then there is going to be a massive loss of confidence in the airline and I think the future will be pretty clear. I for one would love for the future to be rosy.

Time for me to polish off that CV...
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 20:49
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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No Walkover

Am I the only one to be slightly disturbed by your message to BALPA and the NEC, and supposed strong suggestions to the BACC?
The BACC are our reps - ie they represent the views of the vast majority of the BA flight crew.
And, as I pointed out earlier, we agreed to the 10M pa savings to allow the integration to be achieved.

The key point is that these savings are subject to the BACC, ie the representatives of the BA flight crew, being satisfied with arrangements regarding seniority.

Would it be easier for you if we simply referred to the BA flight crew instead of the BACC? Then your posting reads

"BALPA NEC should take note that some hold them personally responsible if they renege on the legal stance that they insisted was the only avenue open at the time of the bmi/BMED takeover, if a similar line is not strongly suggested to the BA flight crew too."
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 21:16
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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I fully agree with Walnut. The fruits of expansion that will come with the purchase of BMI will be significant and can be enjoyed by everyone. The way to penalise the new arrivals is through a significant type freeze, perhaps 5 years. That way the BA pilots can get a massive head-start on the expansion and disadvantaging the bmi pilots. But after a period of time it must become a level playing field.
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 22:15
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Count,
Whilst agreeing the potential for significant expansion, we all know that this cannot be guaranteed.The expansion may be substantial, but for any of us long enough in the airline world for seniority to matter, there is a huge difference between what might happen and what often actually does. For example, according to the "predicted substantial growth" when I joined my present airline, I would have had a longhaul command 6 years ago rather than being at least a few years away from that even now. So all it would take is any one of an seemingly infinite source of potential external shocks for the industry, and the "massive expansion" so often talked about could easily evaporate overnight. So while talk of a 5 year freeze on BMI guys to give BA pilots a "head start" may sound reasonable, it could easily result in that freeze ending just when any expansion actually does start. For those so convinced of the "huge expansion" the BMI slots will bring, then should they as a group be given a BA doj from the date of integration/merger, surely by their own argument they won`t have to wait long to be moving swiftly up the BA master seniority list?
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 22:27
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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My gut feeling is inline with Walnut's.

We should all be grateful for the bounty that this can bring the two groups. I honestly believe that the two groups can bring forward a synergy that was all but impossible before yesterday for both groups.

I therefore share No walkover's positivity and understand their sentiments. Both groups have much to gain, can we not look forward rather than viewing things purely in the immediate short term.

I do also understand why there is a certain dissatisfaction with regard to lack of BALPA HQ acting as a facilitator to bring a united front but having said that, I think it may just be that they do not want to waste energy prior to yesterday's announcement. It will be very interesting though how they act and the message they portray.

I understand that BALPA has a massive revenue stream from the BA folk and why it would be in their interests to come down on this side of the debate. From a BMI perspective, I can completely see why No pushover and others would feel aggrieved if this were the case by BALPA after the previous merger.

Ultimately though, I think that the only fair and honourable position BALPA can take, is the one that protects themselves from contentious issues following their advice. To that end, it may not be a decision that either BA or BMI pilots actually want to hear and quite possibly completely different or in between the two CCs.

I personally do not think that there should have to be a type freeze. What would be interesting would be to see how many bmi pilots actually would want to change fleet. For sure some may want to, e.g. some of the remaining BMED staff would have joined a company with expectations of flying longer distances and the respective lifestyle issues. Then again some of the BMI staff may not have chosen to apply to BA/longhaul because they were happy flying around Europe and returning home more regularly.

I think that some of the BA pilots maybe surprised at the percentage of BMI pilots that may wish to jump ships. In fact, we do have a fleet bid form somewhere, which would show how many actually requested to transfer fleet if the option became available.
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 23:02
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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The way to penalise the new arrivals is through a significant type freeze, perhaps 5 years.
People need to realise that an initial freeze is a temporary measure that solves nothing.

There were guys that were a month or two ahead of me in Oxford who joined BMI shorty before I joined BA. I'm (significantly) more than 5 years away from a long-haul command so by your logic the BMI guys who join BA today get a shot at a long-haul command on a 747/777/787/A380 before me. As anyone in BA knows, a few places in seniority could mean literally years (no exaggeration and not that unlikely either) in the wait for a seat/fleet.

You may find that acceptable but I know about 3300 people who absolutely do not.

The current career prospects of BMI pilots will be protected (with the exception that their new airline isn't on the verge of bankruptcy). But a BMI-DOJ based place on the BA-MSL isn't going to happen. The BACC/BA will see to that and they'll do so entirely within the confines of the law. If the BMI-CC are interested, the BACC will help them get good a deal as possible. But not one that disadvantages BA pilots. Everyone needs to have a serious look at what their career prospects were a year ago and factor that into what they expect them to be a year from now.

If you have issues with the fact that thats not how BMI/BMED was handled then I suggest you take it up with the BMI-CC/BALPA.

Last edited by BusDriverLHR; 31st Mar 2012 at 23:16.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 06:28
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Looking in from the outside (I'm neither BA or BMI), the thing that seems obvious is that from what I hear, on day one at BA you are indoctrinated with the mantra "seniority is everything", which is proven to be true every day of your entire career at BA.

It seems somewhat naive of the BMI pilots tothink that the BA pilots would allow any threat to the very fundamental of their working life.

One can only imagine the fallout if a BMI pilot took the matter to court and, in doing so, destroyed the seniority list at BA...
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 07:32
  #130 (permalink)  
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One can only imagine the fallout if a BMI pilot took the matter to court and, in doing so, destroyed the seniority list at BA...
BALPA took the holiday pay claim to court 8 years ago and arent finished yet. How deep are the fictional BMI pilots pockets? BALPA won't be paying.

Realistically the only people seriously bothered are the Bmi captains. Most of the FOs will hopefully take the view that the long term career is worth a short term loss.

A lot of Captains from Cityflyer voluntarily bid for RHS longhaul anyway. I think Bmi might be the same. Big basic pay cut, moderate allowance improvement coupled with a lifestyle no other airline on the planet allows.

Come on in, the waters lovely.

Last edited by Hotel Mode; 1st Apr 2012 at 07:46.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 07:42
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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You are most likely right. That would however leave balpa exposed to a breach of contact with every none ba member in the country. A dilemma that must surely be weighing on their minds.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 07:53
  #132 (permalink)  
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You are most likely right. That would however leave balpa exposed to a breach of contact with every none ba member in the country. A dilemma that must surely be weighing on their minds.
We all had exactly the same thoughts when the unprofitable BA absorbed us profitable Cityflyer types. I was months away from a 146 command and here I am stuck in the RHS of a 747. However, I earn more than I would have, I have a lifestyle pretty much everyone would desire and I love my job.

I think most of the anger will dissipate once everyone realises how good BA is.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 08:02
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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If bmi had 9 747s 9 777s and 9 320s rather than 27 airbus a/c do you think there would be an issue?
One only has to look at the seniority of longhaul v shorthaul to realise there is a massive preference for LH.
Personally I don't see a judge siding with a bmi pilot who chose not to join BA over a pilot who joined bmi a week earlier and then left bmi for BA .
It just doesn't pass the fairness test so frequently quoted here.
So far the only response has been ' there are winners and losers'.
Well in this particular game we all had a choice back BA or back bmi.
Why should bmi pilots be the winners and BA pilots be the losers?
The 5 year freeze doesn't cut it because when it ends it still affects bidding rights.
If bmi pilots challenge seniority BA will fight it and if they don't BA pilots will. If you destroy the seniority system what would you have in place? Meritocracy for command ? Based upon what? Last 3 sim cx scores ? Minimum fuel carriage? Daren't go sick? Old boy network? Ability not to say boo to a goose?
And if many bmi pilots don't want LH why all the fuss you can more or less do what you do now with exactly the same opportunities.
The crux of the matter is opportunities in LH.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 08:14
  #134 (permalink)  
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That would however leave balpa exposed to a breach of contact with every none ba member in the country. A dilemma that must surely be weighing on their minds.
Unlikely. It has nothing to do with non-BA BALPA members other than those in BMI. In practice, BALPA has to represent the best interests of it's overall membership (BA and everyone else) therefore it is unlikely to take a position to avoid any issues from either side.

Remember however that if anyone from BMI challenges the BA seniority system, it will actually be BA/IAG who they take on, not BALPA. If you think you need deep pockets to take on BALPA, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 08:43
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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I think you might not have recognised that there are two separate issues. If balpa chooses not to represent a group of its members simply because 3300 ba members won't like the outcome, then that flies in the face of their mission statement "to represent all uk pilots".
I do agree though that bmi pilots expecting to come in with their doj intact in respect of seniority is a non starter. It is also a non starter to expect those same bmi pilots to come in at the bottom to start again, especially when that position is not supported in law.
Balpa members all pay a substantial contribution and expect to be represented in a consistent and fair manner.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 09:14
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Xwind flirt

It is also a non starter to expect those same bmi pilots to come in at the bottom to start again, especially when that position is not supported in law.

I Don't think you know that with any degree of certainty. Many believe it not to be the case. We may find out in time.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 09:32
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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There's so much rubbish being written here. Just wait and see what the 2 CCs come up with and I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised.

I'm sure 3800 pilots can absorb any pilot surplus, esp with a lot of over 55s and 60s in both airlines.

No BA pilot will be disadvantaged in terms of status or seniority, and bmi pilots will FINALLY get a stable secure future with one of the biggest airlines in the world with some of the best terms and conditions, the strongest union who achieve a lot through sensible negotiation, fantastic career opportunites - long haul, short haul, training FO positions (which bmi never had), great staff travel, STABLE ROSTERS (yes, really - plus access to the best lifestyle bidding system there is) a pay rise over time (including access to much better flying pay and allowances, especially as BA enjoy more generous tax breaks on them).

I don't think many bmi pilots will feel hard done by once the dust has settled. There are lots of options being explored to negate the effects of being at the bottom of the seniority list, not least the right to commands in the future which bmi are bringing into the mix (ie no bmi pilot will have to wait longer for a SH command than had they stayed as bmi). Believe me a negotiated settlement between the 2 cc's will be far better than if BA simply do it.

LIFO will be preserved so bmi pilots will no longer have to worry for their jobs, and will keep their DOJ for staff travel.

No one in BA wants to see a fractured work force, a combined united workforce is essential for the future challenges we all face (ie EU FTLs in case anyone has forgotton). bmi pilots will be welcomed with open arms into the fold and will be integrated fully into the community.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 09:45
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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"you don't know that with any degree of certainty"

With all due respect, my aforementioned certainly is based on information and knowledge which is readily accessible for those who choose to access it. Current employment law statutes are pretty explicit in terms of protections for employees and procedures. Any areas which are open to interpretation have previously been posed to the Courts, producing precedents.

Any decision taken unilaterally to take a different path to that which is deemed lawful, in light of clear statute and precedent, is likely to give rise to a challenge.

Last edited by xwindflirt; 1st Apr 2012 at 13:47.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 12:15
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Xwindflirt
That would quite possibly have been the most arrogant posting
on a forum ever ,if you'd quoted correctly.
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Old 1st Apr 2012, 12:16
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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The hopeful outcome of the BAcc where all bmi pilots are put to the bottom of the master seniority list is flying in the face of recent company mergers overseen by Balpa. It also completely ignores the IFALPA guidelines for such scenarios. The whole thing will go legal if this isn't resolved and if Balpa don't fund it, there are other sources that will. I'm not issuing threats, just my observations with my knowledge of what's in place.
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