CTC Killing the INDUSTRY!! eJ, Monarch, Thomson and ????
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One point i will say against CTC is that it should not be the only way into a company and certainly not all the companies. If you screw up one interview which is entirely possible then you are excluded from pretty much any airline worth flying for in he UK. That is just not right.
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Artic,
easyJet did recently take on some First Officers. Although maybe not ideal they are also taking on Captains and First Officers via an agency for non UK bases.
easyJet did recently take on some First Officers. Although maybe not ideal they are also taking on Captains and First Officers via an agency for non UK bases.
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Artic,
That's just the market at the moment. Look at Monarch, must of flown for UK airline and also be rated.
When things pick up maybe they will look at non rated.
That's just the market at the moment. Look at Monarch, must of flown for UK airline and also be rated.
When things pick up maybe they will look at non rated.
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That's all well and good mate, but not when you hold a Q400 Type Rating instead of a 320 rating. The ones they took on must've been "rated only".
Ticket prices need to reflect real world costs, until they do, we're all going to get our T's & C's attacked.
Have a look at IB Express!
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FAA v CTC
PT6A:
Suggest you look at this thread rgds FAA ruling:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...standards.html
and
Technology may be eroding pilot skills - chicagotribune.com
By the way who taught you to fly? An Instructor?! What was he paid? £7 per flying hr? Where is the incentive for young pilots to become instructors or even older ones to work for such low wages?
The usual "burning holes in the sky" argument doesn't really wash when it's 1500h!
Afterall who can afford to do that even in the USA on a C150?
Then again, I'd much rather take on an FAA MEP CFII with 1000h instructional experience in all weathers, dealing with busy Class C ATC, Wake turbulence separation, more mountainous terrain than the UK, than a post 2008 CTC cadet or EZY MPL with barely 100h of real flying experience. A lack of real flying skills, a shallow depth of knowledge and 1000s of hours of automation over-reliance is what is killing western airliner passengers these past 11 years.
See: http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf page 22/24 of pdf.
Mendicus: You should question CTC's training in recent years. Too much CBT and multi guess questioning (yes CAA/JAR also to blame here): CHIRP 01/2012 :
"I find the present bunch of junior First Officers very keen
and motivated but sadly woefully undertrained. They
have been taught to master the Flight Management
System but not taught the basics of flying or landing the
aeroplane."
Suggest you look at this thread rgds FAA ruling:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...standards.html
and
Technology may be eroding pilot skills - chicagotribune.com
By the way who taught you to fly? An Instructor?! What was he paid? £7 per flying hr? Where is the incentive for young pilots to become instructors or even older ones to work for such low wages?
The usual "burning holes in the sky" argument doesn't really wash when it's 1500h!
Afterall who can afford to do that even in the USA on a C150?
Then again, I'd much rather take on an FAA MEP CFII with 1000h instructional experience in all weathers, dealing with busy Class C ATC, Wake turbulence separation, more mountainous terrain than the UK, than a post 2008 CTC cadet or EZY MPL with barely 100h of real flying experience. A lack of real flying skills, a shallow depth of knowledge and 1000s of hours of automation over-reliance is what is killing western airliner passengers these past 11 years.
See: http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf page 22/24 of pdf.
Mendicus: You should question CTC's training in recent years. Too much CBT and multi guess questioning (yes CAA/JAR also to blame here): CHIRP 01/2012 :
"I find the present bunch of junior First Officers very keen
and motivated but sadly woefully undertrained. They
have been taught to master the Flight Management
System but not taught the basics of flying or landing the
aeroplane."
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CTC
My experience with CTC.
Had a really 'cheesy' Interview with 'Fly Dubai'. The initial interviews were being run by CTC last year. I have to say it was very unprofessional. The day was run by two ex Flight Attendants that had no idea what so ever about what they were doing. They were more concerned about picking up their kids from school that day, and if they had a ladder in their tights ....
On Arrival:
1. I was not asked for any identification at all
2. None of my details checked, ie Licence log book etc
3. They knew nothing about Fly Dubai in the initial welcome briefing and couldn't answer any questions from any candidate, ref Housing, Licensing etc.
4. One of the Interviewers was thought she 'still had it' ....? Nah, she didn't
I got invited to leave at lunch time on day one. After testing (computer based, reminder of Biggin Hill) I was told I wasn't going to make a pilot ! At the time I had 15K TT B737NG, BBJ, Corporate Jets, G550 / G4 / Global Express and Military Fast Jet experience.
A very experienced A320 Captain went with me (he just walked out) which left guys with no Boeing rating and <1000 hrs. What were CTC doing ? Not the best for their customer Airlines especially 'Fly Dubai' .... A very poor show CTC ! Indeed they are killing the industry in the UK and makes me angry that you have to pass the CTC screaning in many cases if you want a job in the UK / Europe. I am not bitter that I got canned, but the way the day was handled. I was the only one from the UK and everybody else was from USA, Canada, Poland, and New Zealand. What was their impression ?
I now am a flying as a 777 Captain for another operator in the Middle East, had a very fair professional interview process, and first class training. (EY)
My experience with CTC.
Had a really 'cheesy' Interview with 'Fly Dubai'. The initial interviews were being run by CTC last year. I have to say it was very unprofessional. The day was run by two ex Flight Attendants that had no idea what so ever about what they were doing. They were more concerned about picking up their kids from school that day, and if they had a ladder in their tights ....
On Arrival:
1. I was not asked for any identification at all
2. None of my details checked, ie Licence log book etc
3. They knew nothing about Fly Dubai in the initial welcome briefing and couldn't answer any questions from any candidate, ref Housing, Licensing etc.
4. One of the Interviewers was thought she 'still had it' ....? Nah, she didn't
I got invited to leave at lunch time on day one. After testing (computer based, reminder of Biggin Hill) I was told I wasn't going to make a pilot ! At the time I had 15K TT B737NG, BBJ, Corporate Jets, G550 / G4 / Global Express and Military Fast Jet experience.
A very experienced A320 Captain went with me (he just walked out) which left guys with no Boeing rating and <1000 hrs. What were CTC doing ? Not the best for their customer Airlines especially 'Fly Dubai' .... A very poor show CTC ! Indeed they are killing the industry in the UK and makes me angry that you have to pass the CTC screaning in many cases if you want a job in the UK / Europe. I am not bitter that I got canned, but the way the day was handled. I was the only one from the UK and everybody else was from USA, Canada, Poland, and New Zealand. What was their impression ?
I now am a flying as a 777 Captain for another operator in the Middle East, had a very fair professional interview process, and first class training. (EY)
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High n Fast
It's interesting that you didn't do so well on the Computer tests. I had a similar issue, particularly with hand-eye coordination, for the BA FPP. The implication was that I couldn't fly an aeroplane. I don't profess to have even 10% of your depth and breadth of experience, but it says a lot that when I went back for the remainder of the assessment for in-house, I was able to pass the sim check to a really high standard and day two with marks that I was more than happy with.
I'm not convinced by the validity of all of the computer based tests, and neither are several colleagues ranging from experienced TPs to major airline Captains to Airshow Formation aerobatic pilots. However, them's the rules, and that's the way it is for that slice of the industry. I'm sure they get plenty of good ones, plus a few that have spent too much time playing computer games.
As had already been pointed out, it's ability to pay rather than flying aptitude and ability that counts these days.
It's interesting that you didn't do so well on the Computer tests. I had a similar issue, particularly with hand-eye coordination, for the BA FPP. The implication was that I couldn't fly an aeroplane. I don't profess to have even 10% of your depth and breadth of experience, but it says a lot that when I went back for the remainder of the assessment for in-house, I was able to pass the sim check to a really high standard and day two with marks that I was more than happy with.
I'm not convinced by the validity of all of the computer based tests, and neither are several colleagues ranging from experienced TPs to major airline Captains to Airshow Formation aerobatic pilots. However, them's the rules, and that's the way it is for that slice of the industry. I'm sure they get plenty of good ones, plus a few that have spent too much time playing computer games.
As had already been pointed out, it's ability to pay rather than flying aptitude and ability that counts these days.
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When I did the JetRepublic CTC selection, they sent home a Frecce Tricolore leader and a few other FJ pilots after the silly computer games. Absurd.
I vaguely remember some ex F/A, and a nauseating ex BA guy. Neither had the first clue about business aviation. Biggest berk was on the door - Chastised me like a school boy for chatting to an old friend and not immediately filling in his stupid form.
Awful place; best left to snot-nosed school leavers with more money than sense.
I vaguely remember some ex F/A, and a nauseating ex BA guy. Neither had the first clue about business aviation. Biggest berk was on the door - Chastised me like a school boy for chatting to an old friend and not immediately filling in his stupid form.
Awful place; best left to snot-nosed school leavers with more money than sense.
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Can someone confirm that CTC used to train Thomson pilots a few years back but stopped using them because they wernt happy with the quality of training?
If that the case it seems ironic that they are now going to take several of their cadets, who have had the same training and are probably skint and stressed too!
Will they be allowed to sleep in their cars like the Easy cadets do?
If that the case it seems ironic that they are now going to take several of their cadets, who have had the same training and are probably skint and stressed too!
Will they be allowed to sleep in their cars like the Easy cadets do?
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A very experienced A320 Captain went with me (he just walked out) which left guys with no Boeing rating and <1000 hrs. What were CTC doing ?
Plumbum Pendular
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That's all well and good mate, but not when you hold a Q400 Type Rating instead of a 320 rating. The ones they took on must've been "rated only".
I don't have a problem with cadets but what really gets my goat is that you go to CTC and they arrange a loan for you. Then, on the flexicrew scheme, they don't even pay you enough to cover your interest payments on said loan, especially in the winter when it is power by the hour.
That is just immoral and CTC have no interest in anything other than just profiteering and feathering their own nest.
FlexiCrew is a response to the current economic climate, but more importantly, it is what some airlines want.
CTC have a very unhealthy and far too large influence in the aviation market and should have their wings clipped (pun intended).
Just for the record I have no problem with the cadets themselves and they have been well trained. It's the way that they have been treated that is my issue.
What can we, as a profession, do about it?
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Well said fmgc.
I'd like to think there was something that could be done to reverse, or at least slow down, the current trend but sadly i think its un-stoppable.
I'd like to think europe would follow the FAA ruling on 1500 hours min experience, but theres more chance of hell freezing over. It may help, but as has previously been mentioned, new money making rackets / packages would only spring up to circumnavigate it anyway.
Big business is big business and some people are making substantial amounts of money from the whole thing. Its a shame that many of those people used to be pilots - more often than not human nature will rapidly release its grip on any sense of morality when big financial gain is to be had.
At the lower end, we have the idiots who suddenly find themselves with a bit of power within the selection process, the likes of whom we've read about in the above posts. Still, every industry has its sad no-marks i guess.
Obviously, its not just CTC. Parc , Oxford, Easyjet, Ryanair etc etc etc have all a case to answer for where we are. It aint gonna change for the better anytime soon
I'd like to think there was something that could be done to reverse, or at least slow down, the current trend but sadly i think its un-stoppable.
I'd like to think europe would follow the FAA ruling on 1500 hours min experience, but theres more chance of hell freezing over. It may help, but as has previously been mentioned, new money making rackets / packages would only spring up to circumnavigate it anyway.
Big business is big business and some people are making substantial amounts of money from the whole thing. Its a shame that many of those people used to be pilots - more often than not human nature will rapidly release its grip on any sense of morality when big financial gain is to be had.
At the lower end, we have the idiots who suddenly find themselves with a bit of power within the selection process, the likes of whom we've read about in the above posts. Still, every industry has its sad no-marks i guess.
Obviously, its not just CTC. Parc , Oxford, Easyjet, Ryanair etc etc etc have all a case to answer for where we are. It aint gonna change for the better anytime soon
Plumbum Pendular
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Its a shame that many of those people used to be pilots
Despite teaching CRM apparently he was awfully sarcastic and a bully on the FD.
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One of them is a really nice guy
Of course, when he was starting out he didn't have to pay for any of his training - he had a full-time job to go to before training commenced, had a permanent contract of employment after training ended and after serving his probabtionary period, and enjoyed a full-fat salary and Defined Benefit Pension ("Final Salary") for the rest of his time with Britannia.
I bet he claimed to be a pious and principled member of BALPA too whilst he was enjoying it all.
And CTC is his legacy - "nice guy" indeed.
Last edited by Weary; 31st Mar 2012 at 14:49.
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Whether all this negativity is right or wrong in a factual sense, there is no way any of it will change with a continued negative attitude.
I agree that the CTC deal is not great to start with, but I am now 3 years since graduating. Using a bit of imagination you can definitely still achieve all that you set out to at the start of training. I more than comfortably earn enough now for a range rover and a Breitling, and all living in the relative comfort of Europe. As I said, it just takes some imagination and a positive attitude.
That's indeed why you won't find many ex CTC trainees having a rant on pprune. Only those on the outside who frankly don't have much grasp of the reality of the situation.
I agree that the CTC deal is not great to start with, but I am now 3 years since graduating. Using a bit of imagination you can definitely still achieve all that you set out to at the start of training. I more than comfortably earn enough now for a range rover and a Breitling, and all living in the relative comfort of Europe. As I said, it just takes some imagination and a positive attitude.
That's indeed why you won't find many ex CTC trainees having a rant on pprune. Only those on the outside who frankly don't have much grasp of the reality of the situation.
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Using a bit of imagination you can definitely still achieve all that you set out to at the start of training. I more than comfortably earn enough now for a range rover and a Breitling, and all living in the relative comfort of Europe. As I said, it just takes some imagination and a positive attitude.
Basically you are not too different from a whore.Think about it next time you wear your wonderful Breitling. Looser!
