CTC Killing the INDUSTRY!! eJ, Monarch, Thomson and ????
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: above clouds
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CTC Killing the INDUSTRY!! eJ, Monarch, Thomson and ????
Hi all,
I'm sure everyone is aware of what's happening to the industry but a lot of folk still have rose tinted glasses on, that includes new guys coming in at the bottom and experienced folk out flying the line.
It's time to wake up and stand UNITED or leave the likes of CTC and AIRLINE MANAGEMENT to truly kill this "PROFESSION" what a great career this is turning out to be...
The following email is about a year old... don't shoot the messenger and make of it what you will...
My interpretation... CTC coffers/bank balance get richer while the young naive cadet gets screwed over from behind working his ARSE/ASS off on the line!!!!
"Dear CTC Wings/ATP Pilots,
As an organisation, we are in deed a little cautious when it comes to announcing new ideas or initiatives;however, when we do go forth, the concepts are well researched, innovative and effective. When we devised the ATP programme, that concept was unheard of in the industry. When we unveiled the Cadet programme some 8 years ago, the degree of selection, under writing of the training and the bond repayment mechanisms were totally novel. Our competitors have now followed suit.
FlexiCrew is a response to the current economic climate, but more importantly, it is what some airlines want. Most of our Customer Airlines (not just the Wings Partner Airlines) are looking for a way to make their operations leaner and more financially viable. Crew costs are a significant part of an airlines cost base and the seasonality within some airlines leads to in efficiencies on occasion. Of course this is not the case for all airlines, but we have listened to a great many who would like to see an initiative such as FlexiCrew.
FlexiCrew can be used to provide airlines with complete crewing solutions from training captains, low hour pilots through to cabin crew if required. As I mentioned in my last update, it is intended for type rated pilots; however, we did not want to exclude Wings pilots be they in training or indeed, already in airline jobs. This goes for Cadets and ATP alike. It is fair to say that the climate has changed in aviation in the UK and most of Europe for that matter. I'm not sure anyone could have predicted the speed and severity of the recession, but it is important that CTC responds with solutions. There is some speculation at the moment as to the structure of things to come. Will airlines be hiring in 2013?
Will Cadets and ATP pilots be offered type ratings and line training? Will those pilots then move into employment seamlessly as in previous years? Unfortunately my crystal ball is no bigger or better than yours and I cannot answer those questions for certain. Ultimately it is the airline's decision. However, we can influence, and we do. In providing initiatives and forward thinking ideas, we can assist the airlines with finding cost effective solutions AND at all times look for the very best opportunity for you. The last part of that sentence might seem a little idealistic, but it's not. CTC Wings success has been built on the reputation of providing highly skilled,capable and personable pilots to our customers. We are able to do that because we find the best candidates - you!
You come to us because we will provide you with the best possible chance of a placement. This is a three way relationship between you, the airlines and CTC. As you are aware, we have recently commenced xx Cadets on the Airbus TR and yesterday, easyJet confirmed that xx have joined the airline in the New Year. As is always the case, the airline cannot commit beyond the 6 month period. It is a fact that those Cadets might not be kept on after the 6 months, but it is also possible that they might. What is for certain, however, is that they will have completed a TR on an Airbus and will have gained 300 to 400 hours on type. Of the 32 pilots who were recently stood down by eJ and Monarch -some have secured positions with eJ Swiss, some have passed selection for GulfAir (no help from CTC).
For the remainder, we are in discussions with other Middle Eastern airlines, Far Eastern and Australasian airlines, plus some European carriers.These discussions are not casual chats; they are in depth negotiations that are looking to secure the best possible packages for those pilots. Most important are the ongoing discussions that are taking place with eJ, to secure a return to the airline for those pilots who were stood down. There is a strong proposal for those guys to return to eJ, albeit to a base possibly outside the UK. When we reach the right point in the negotiations with the airline, we will, of course,contact all of those pilots (ATP and Cadets) and discuss in detail what the options are.
I have gone into this detail because it is very important to understand the facts. FlexiCrew is merely offering additional options to CTC Wings pilots and is not at all mandatory. CTC cannot predict the nature of placements into the future with some operators, and more than that, it would be wise to anticipate a possible change to the way in which some airlines will look to crew their aircraft in the future. There is a real possibility that eJ will be re-engaging those pilots who were recently stood down, though it might be outside the UK. Whatever the economic climate and whatever state the industry might be in, CTC will act relentlessly when it comes to representing you and seeking opportunities for you. We continue to be flexible, innovative committed to providing solutions to the industry.
All the best,
L"
I'm sure everyone is aware of what's happening to the industry but a lot of folk still have rose tinted glasses on, that includes new guys coming in at the bottom and experienced folk out flying the line.
It's time to wake up and stand UNITED or leave the likes of CTC and AIRLINE MANAGEMENT to truly kill this "PROFESSION" what a great career this is turning out to be...
The following email is about a year old... don't shoot the messenger and make of it what you will...
My interpretation... CTC coffers/bank balance get richer while the young naive cadet gets screwed over from behind working his ARSE/ASS off on the line!!!!
"Dear CTC Wings/ATP Pilots,
As an organisation, we are in deed a little cautious when it comes to announcing new ideas or initiatives;however, when we do go forth, the concepts are well researched, innovative and effective. When we devised the ATP programme, that concept was unheard of in the industry. When we unveiled the Cadet programme some 8 years ago, the degree of selection, under writing of the training and the bond repayment mechanisms were totally novel. Our competitors have now followed suit.
FlexiCrew is a response to the current economic climate, but more importantly, it is what some airlines want. Most of our Customer Airlines (not just the Wings Partner Airlines) are looking for a way to make their operations leaner and more financially viable. Crew costs are a significant part of an airlines cost base and the seasonality within some airlines leads to in efficiencies on occasion. Of course this is not the case for all airlines, but we have listened to a great many who would like to see an initiative such as FlexiCrew.
FlexiCrew can be used to provide airlines with complete crewing solutions from training captains, low hour pilots through to cabin crew if required. As I mentioned in my last update, it is intended for type rated pilots; however, we did not want to exclude Wings pilots be they in training or indeed, already in airline jobs. This goes for Cadets and ATP alike. It is fair to say that the climate has changed in aviation in the UK and most of Europe for that matter. I'm not sure anyone could have predicted the speed and severity of the recession, but it is important that CTC responds with solutions. There is some speculation at the moment as to the structure of things to come. Will airlines be hiring in 2013?
Will Cadets and ATP pilots be offered type ratings and line training? Will those pilots then move into employment seamlessly as in previous years? Unfortunately my crystal ball is no bigger or better than yours and I cannot answer those questions for certain. Ultimately it is the airline's decision. However, we can influence, and we do. In providing initiatives and forward thinking ideas, we can assist the airlines with finding cost effective solutions AND at all times look for the very best opportunity for you. The last part of that sentence might seem a little idealistic, but it's not. CTC Wings success has been built on the reputation of providing highly skilled,capable and personable pilots to our customers. We are able to do that because we find the best candidates - you!
You come to us because we will provide you with the best possible chance of a placement. This is a three way relationship between you, the airlines and CTC. As you are aware, we have recently commenced xx Cadets on the Airbus TR and yesterday, easyJet confirmed that xx have joined the airline in the New Year. As is always the case, the airline cannot commit beyond the 6 month period. It is a fact that those Cadets might not be kept on after the 6 months, but it is also possible that they might. What is for certain, however, is that they will have completed a TR on an Airbus and will have gained 300 to 400 hours on type. Of the 32 pilots who were recently stood down by eJ and Monarch -some have secured positions with eJ Swiss, some have passed selection for GulfAir (no help from CTC).
For the remainder, we are in discussions with other Middle Eastern airlines, Far Eastern and Australasian airlines, plus some European carriers.These discussions are not casual chats; they are in depth negotiations that are looking to secure the best possible packages for those pilots. Most important are the ongoing discussions that are taking place with eJ, to secure a return to the airline for those pilots who were stood down. There is a strong proposal for those guys to return to eJ, albeit to a base possibly outside the UK. When we reach the right point in the negotiations with the airline, we will, of course,contact all of those pilots (ATP and Cadets) and discuss in detail what the options are.
I have gone into this detail because it is very important to understand the facts. FlexiCrew is merely offering additional options to CTC Wings pilots and is not at all mandatory. CTC cannot predict the nature of placements into the future with some operators, and more than that, it would be wise to anticipate a possible change to the way in which some airlines will look to crew their aircraft in the future. There is a real possibility that eJ will be re-engaging those pilots who were recently stood down, though it might be outside the UK. Whatever the economic climate and whatever state the industry might be in, CTC will act relentlessly when it comes to representing you and seeking opportunities for you. We continue to be flexible, innovative committed to providing solutions to the industry.
All the best,
L"
Last edited by futureTP; 21st Mar 2012 at 23:21.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Playing Golf!
Age: 46
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they had not gone via CTC where would these pilots be? Sat at home with no ours on a modern jet...
Or paid money to go and fly at a 3rd world operator?
At least they have gained some valuable experience with a "proper" operator.
I don't lik the situation... But the industry is changing and I think your better of being in bed with CTC / easyJet than finding your own path with EagleJet and a banned airline in Indonesia.
Or paid money to go and fly at a 3rd world operator?
At least they have gained some valuable experience with a "proper" operator.
I don't lik the situation... But the industry is changing and I think your better of being in bed with CTC / easyJet than finding your own path with EagleJet and a banned airline in Indonesia.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's time to wake up and stand UNITED or leave the likes of CTC and AIRLINE MANAGEMENT to truly kill this "PROFESSION" what a great career this is turning out to be...
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Offshore
Age: 73
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh Dear...Not again..
Here we go again.. another post containing RANDOM capitals, underscoring and BOLD type from someone peddling an OLD story and wanting to change THE world......
1 IT'S not an industry my friend...
2 All of the folks who have paid a fortune for their training and licences...and PTF in many cases... have made a lot of bad decisions and
choices.
3 Your energy would be better directed against the many training establishments which have, for many years, promoted their training courses as almost guarantees of prompt, prestigious and lucrative airline employment
4 It also must be recorded here that there are very many unemployed fATPL holders out there of unspeakably poor quality who will most likely never secure employment at the pointy end.
5 Maybe those who are so disgruntled should try to rearrange the following words...
kitchen...heat...if..like...don't... you...the...in..out..get...
1 IT'S not an industry my friend...
2 All of the folks who have paid a fortune for their training and licences...and PTF in many cases... have made a lot of bad decisions and
choices.
3 Your energy would be better directed against the many training establishments which have, for many years, promoted their training courses as almost guarantees of prompt, prestigious and lucrative airline employment
4 It also must be recorded here that there are very many unemployed fATPL holders out there of unspeakably poor quality who will most likely never secure employment at the pointy end.
5 Maybe those who are so disgruntled should try to rearrange the following words...
kitchen...heat...if..like...don't... you...the...in..out..get...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It also must be recorded here that there are very many unemployed fATPL holders out there of unspeakably poor quality who will most likely never secure employment at the pointy end.
The old system of Cadets and selective enrolement meant that if you were rubbish and not up to standard you got thrown out of the training system. The Cadet system was run along similar lines to the Military (In most cases the instructors/examiners were ex-mil, look at Prestwick!).
Now the ability to complete a course, if the student is average/below average, is the ability to continue to pay for it. Admittedly the atrocious are still (hopefully) weeded out but the 'poor' still continue to follow through to the end of their 'course' and 6 months with a carrier to be bounced out for the next 'cash paying' co-pilot. The abiliity to pass a course is, in many ways, no longer dictated by ability more by how deep the applicants pockets are.
As a friend of mine who works as a TSC for one of these placement airlines says, he is flying single pilot in many cases. Always with a new, inexperinced, if enthusiastic, Co-pilot who struggles with SOP's, aircraft handling and lack of familiarity with destination airfields. He then coaches them through 6 months with almost certain knowledge that they will not be given a contract. He has complained to the company that it is both extremely hard work for him and very unfair on the co-pilots.
Sadly the rot will not stop from the Trainees as they are only trying to get a rung up the ladder, understandably so. The movement needs to come from the CAA who should be taking a stance on airlines making profit from passengers being flown by a trainee who is not being paid to fly commercially. Unfortunately, as with the EASA FTL's and BALPA's weak willed stance, the CAA/BALPA are toothless dogs that roll over at the first sign of conflict.
Until we have our own 'Colgan' the public will want seats cheaper per mile than a local bus and won't give a damn who is poling them around the sky at Mach 0.79 with no option to 'pull over to the side of the road'.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Offshore
Age: 73
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wondering..
...could this be the same Future TP (Test Pilot? 230 hours? Oh please!) who, throughout 2009 and 2010 was chasing, enquiring and lusting after CTC selection... but in 2012 is trying to crucify them? Could there be a slight whiff of rejection/failure here?
Sorry young fellow but your immaturity shines through your posts and threads... Haha..LOL...Haha..Mate...guys... Haha...LOL..
You are, or profess to be, a prospective professional pilot...Maybe the time has come to behave and communicate like one!
Sorry young fellow but your immaturity shines through your posts and threads... Haha..LOL...Haha..Mate...guys... Haha...LOL..
You are, or profess to be, a prospective professional pilot...Maybe the time has come to behave and communicate like one!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the OFCR......and probably somewhere over China zzzzzzzz
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure that anyone who has attended one of the Flyer shows, that have been going for some time now, will have seen the huge effort CTC put on the 'capture' element of their marketing. Any prospective student will be bombarded by lots of tantalising facts and figures. An analytical mind would rapidly see costs/vs income in EZY et al and believe this is a quick one stop shop to success and, in time, command.
At the end of the day it is up to the student to do their homework, and use such events to check on all available options and decide what is best for them. We live in the 'have now' generation. It really is no surprise. CTC are very good at marketing.
At the end of the day it is up to the student to do their homework, and use such events to check on all available options and decide what is best for them. We live in the 'have now' generation. It really is no surprise. CTC are very good at marketing.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually I think it is a number of factors combined that has changed the industry in the manner complained about.
a) CTC, b) LoCo, c) the Internet, d) fuel costs and e) (which has always been there) job perception.
a) CTC, b) LoCo, c) the Internet, d) fuel costs and e) (which has always been there) job perception.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EU
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand the need for cheap pilots during hard economic times, and I'm not really going to argue that. But the question is when the economy is back to normal and recovered, will there be an end to flexi crew and airlines doing their best to get pilots as cheap as possible? Probably not.
In that letter it sounded to me like they were indirectly saying that flexi crew will become the norm one day and pilots can enjoy crap pay and will be released when they're not needed. Surely there's no way that can happen, how will people survive for food?
Am I hopeful in saying I hope the future of pilots returns to some normality? I don't mean sponsorships or it becoming easy to get a job but when one does get a job they are paid above minimum wage and aren't told to go away during winter.
I wish I could see the future.
In that letter it sounded to me like they were indirectly saying that flexi crew will become the norm one day and pilots can enjoy crap pay and will be released when they're not needed. Surely there's no way that can happen, how will people survive for food?
Am I hopeful in saying I hope the future of pilots returns to some normality? I don't mean sponsorships or it becoming easy to get a job but when one does get a job they are paid above minimum wage and aren't told to go away during winter.
I wish I could see the future.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: occidens
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree
My friend died last year trying to build hours the 'classic' way as he hated the likes of CTC. He spent 9 years flying with (he was cabin crew) Captains that believed in the grass roots of aviation and NOT CTC. Going the classic way FI,Turbo prop etc. We all know that BA etc need their cadets but when the greedy individuals who never paid for their own training start to cross the line and move the goal posts, then there is a problem. Flexicrew is a disgusting direction and makes this industry on par with banking. I don't question the ability of the individuals that went to CTC or CTC training but when Airlines only take from them its a sad pathetic situation.
He died a hero and with principles, the same principles that many Captains have but money is the game and it is for CTC my advice don't pay CTC avoid them. Go classic.
He died a hero and with principles, the same principles that many Captains have but money is the game and it is for CTC my advice don't pay CTC avoid them. Go classic.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True or not, there is still not enough of a stigma attached to trying to enter the profession this way. It should be metaphorically marked on their forehead forever.
Whilst those who are willing to spend thousands and thousands of pounds in the belief that they will get a 'leg up' the ladder are a part of the problem they are not the biggest part of the problem.
The whole training system needs to be grass roots regulated from the bottom to the top. The FAA's idea of introducing a mandatory 1500 hour minimum will put pressure on the P2F brigade as the required hours will, in effect, be unachieveable from their own pockets.
Until there is some concrete law preventing the exploitation of (naieve) inexperienced pilots by ruthless companies for profit then there will be nothing to stop those same companies from increasing the pressure to push through candidates.
Once they are in the right hand seat, on a full contract, irrespective of how they got there it is our responsibility to mould a professional Co-Pilot who will become a professional Captain in the future. I might be retired in the back by then and would like to see the result of my efforts!!!
Creating division and derision within our profession benefits no-one.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Playing Golf!
Age: 46
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes but the FAA put a clause in the new regulations reducing the 1500 hour requirement if you attend a school along the lines of CTC.
The FAA system and the European Cadet / CTC system are two very different things.
My personal stance is I think the CTC route is fine, however I don't like it being open to private sponsorship. If an airline was selecting and paying for the cadets training then I'm sure there would be no accusations real or otherwise of anything but talent being the deciding factor if someone makes it through the course.
Again personal opinion, but I think flying around the pattern counts for very little, if someone had worked for a TP operator then by all means have a method of entry as an FO for them.
What the FAA have dreamt up will do nothing to increase flighty safety, they would of been better banning pilots commuting to work.
The FAA system and the European Cadet / CTC system are two very different things.
My personal stance is I think the CTC route is fine, however I don't like it being open to private sponsorship. If an airline was selecting and paying for the cadets training then I'm sure there would be no accusations real or otherwise of anything but talent being the deciding factor if someone makes it through the course.
Again personal opinion, but I think flying around the pattern counts for very little, if someone had worked for a TP operator then by all means have a method of entry as an FO for them.
What the FAA have dreamt up will do nothing to increase flighty safety, they would of been better banning pilots commuting to work.
Last edited by PT6A; 21st Mar 2012 at 16:38.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PT6A,
As you say, if the scheme chose potential candidates based upon their innate ability not just their ability to pay then I'm sure it would be fine/more acceptable.
The days of Airlines paying for full training are, IMHO, sadly gone. An airline wants a payback now for it's risk/investment and it will take a fundamental ethos shift for that to change in the future I'm afraid.
If an airline was selecting and paying for the cadets training
The days of Airlines paying for full training are, IMHO, sadly gone. An airline wants a payback now for it's risk/investment and it will take a fundamental ethos shift for that to change in the future I'm afraid.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Only an ocean away
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The FAA still require 1,000TT from those that have gone through pre approved programmes. These are mainly 4 year degree courses. The only other exception to the 1,500TT requirement is ex-mil guys who are allowed into the flight deck with 750TT. I think that is easily justified by the standard of training they have received and the hoops they have had to jump through to even have the chance to fly a military aircraft.
It is vital to the survival of our profession in Europe, in particular the UK, that we get rid of pay to play flying. CTC cadets are undoubtedly declining in quality. I have first hand experience of this.
Too many good pilots are being overlooked in order to put these guys in the right seat. Many are capable, but many others have no business being in the right seat of a 156 seat jet.
It is vital to the survival of our profession in Europe, in particular the UK, that we get rid of pay to play flying. CTC cadets are undoubtedly declining in quality. I have first hand experience of this.
Too many good pilots are being overlooked in order to put these guys in the right seat. Many are capable, but many others have no business being in the right seat of a 156 seat jet.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by futuretp:
That explains it then - and applying when there was no unsecured loan! Vote lib dem or labour do we, you champagne socialist. Do as I say, not as I do.
futureTP
*
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: above clouds
Posts: 30
Got a reply from ctc anyone else heard anything??
*
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: above clouds
Posts: 30
Got a reply from ctc anyone else heard anything??
That explains it then - and applying when there was no unsecured loan! Vote lib dem or labour do we, you champagne socialist. Do as I say, not as I do.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Playing Golf!
Age: 46
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone actually think it will improve flight safety by someone having 1500 hours in light aircraft, for arguments sake as a flight instructor?
Because mark my words... You will see every 2 bit flight school in the states start to offer 1,500 hour CFI internships. Basically forced labor where the flight school gets CFI's for free as all other routes to an airline cockpit have been effectively cut off.
This may even cause a further reduction in the quality of applicant.
Because mark my words... You will see every 2 bit flight school in the states start to offer 1,500 hour CFI internships. Basically forced labor where the flight school gets CFI's for free as all other routes to an airline cockpit have been effectively cut off.
This may even cause a further reduction in the quality of applicant.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: In a cave
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My gripe is that they are stopping perfectly capable experienced pilots from moving on. A natural step for myself would be to Easyjet. It would be ok if it was a balanced playing field, some CTC, some experience, but it isn't.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No I am certain it won't. But it will keep the lefty , inefficient bureaucrats happy.
PERFECT practice makes perfect - not just practice. Something I learnt from my previous career. Continually practicing something incorrectly, unchecked, can make you extremely dangerous. Contrary to popular belief we FALL to the level of our training not RISE to the level of our expectations.
PERFECT practice makes perfect - not just practice. Something I learnt from my previous career. Continually practicing something incorrectly, unchecked, can make you extremely dangerous. Contrary to popular belief we FALL to the level of our training not RISE to the level of our expectations.