Turboprop to Jet
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Jaisalmer - FlyBe? What about progression onto the Embraer series?
Unfortunately that is based on seniority in company only. So experienced captains can and have been passed over by newly promoted captains who could have one days more seniority and 1/4 the hours experience is not taken into consideration- ce la vie!
As previous posters have noticed TP experience (no matter how much) is now virtually useless. On another thread the question was asked TP Command or FO jet. The universal response was Jet.
Unfortunately that is based on seniority in company only. So experienced captains can and have been passed over by newly promoted captains who could have one days more seniority and 1/4 the hours experience is not taken into consideration- ce la vie!
As previous posters have noticed TP experience (no matter how much) is now virtually useless. On another thread the question was asked TP Command or FO jet. The universal response was Jet.
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Unfortunately that is based on seniority in company only. So experienced captains can and have been passed over by newly promoted captains who could have one days more seniority and 1/4 the hours experience is not taken into consideration- ce la vie!
Artic Monk explained he was
flying TPs around the UK & Europe
As previous posters have noticed TP experience (no matter how much) is now virtually useless. On another thread the question was asked TP Command or FO jet. The universal response was Jet.
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Originally Posted by Jaisalmer
If he was, why was he complaining that he was going absolutely no where? Why not gain seniority and wait for a place on the Embraer series?
Lifestyle is not all about what equipment you fly, it is the multitude of things that an airline offers. I am actually complaining (as you put it, and why shouldn't I?) that I am going nowhere because even in Flybe there is barely any movement at all due to the fact that pilots cannot move on to other airlines (EasyJet being the natural stepper) and thus free up space at the bottom. My situation is slightly different to most, I have a massive pension gap to fill, as do alot of F/Os, so even a 1 year F/O with another major will be on just about the same, or more than a year 0 jet captain. You do not keep your fleet seniority when changing seats within Flybe.
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Sure, but as is the same at BA. Seniority is everything.
The problem at flybe which PT6 alludes to is the Embraers are currently replacing Dashes, understandably when this happens the in base senior Dash guys move on to the Embraer.
This has led to very junior Dash Captains (in GLA) getting their move to the Embraer and "skipping" company (but not base) seniority.
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You do not keep your fleet seniority when changing seats within Flybe.
You're right, absolutely, that lifestyle is not all to do with the aircraft that one flies. So the stepping stone, the likes of eJ, is no longer there due to the influx of CTC Flexi crews.
So what's next? What is the expected time to jet and where do any pilots that are leaving BE seem to be going? Yes time to jet can be a wait, but not an infinite one. Could it not be argued, for example, that a pilot with 'X' thousand hours on an emb-jet is in the same position as an eJ pilot with the same amount of hours on an A320 when looking to move to a bigger carrier?
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't be complaining. I don't know your circumstance.
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Can anybody explain where this weird obsession with jet time comes from ? Surely if you've got a lot of TP experience flying commercially you're as valid as a jet pilot doing the same. Ok, you've got some twirly bits on the front of your engine nacelles and you might fly slightly lower and slower but otherwise the job's exactly the same. Airways flying in a complex aircraft, two crew.
So where did this all start ?
So where did this all start ?
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FlyingGasMain
As Artie fufkin says, it's because that is where the cash is, end of story. The equipment, or type of aircraft (jet/TP) is irrelevant. Nobody is obsessed with "jet" aircraft, I don't know how you've come up with that.
As Artie fufkin says, it's because that is where the cash is, end of story. The equipment, or type of aircraft (jet/TP) is irrelevant. Nobody is obsessed with "jet" aircraft, I don't know how you've come up with that.
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A long time ago in a land.........
It began when jets were true turbo jets (1940s-1960s) not turbo fans which are mechanically (especially with the forthcoming GTF) actually very similar to turbo props as they derive most of the thrust from the by-pass section rather than the core.
The book "Handling the big jets" by DP Davies (RIP) details how "old jets" with their swept wings heavier all up weights, greater momentum and no slipstream effects were difficult to go down and slow down and needed high power against drag on the approach (flight path stability sometimes poorly called "speed stability").
Old Jets also had very long engine spool up times which combined with the way a turbo jet produced thrust at low airspeeds meant the go-around from a low thrust setting could be fraught with sink and back of the drag curve speed control problems.
Today's engine spool up times are faster and the huge By-Pass fan effectively bites the air more like a propellor at low airspeeds than the old turbo jets ever did - this makes modern jet airliners more flight path stable on approach.
Then there's high altitude operations - sadly many modern pilots aren't aware of the changes in momentum (TAS) and it's effect on manoeuvrability or the real meaning of coffin corner (Stall and Mach Buffet variation with weight and altitude). The AF447 disaster will hopefully mean more pilots read up on it. Some airlines refuse to let their pilots fly much above FL350 because of some unwise operators trying to climb too early when far too heavy.
Turbo props operate in the worst weather into shorter runways. They face far more icing challenges and have more engine controls to consider than jet pilots.
The Q400 is pretty fast for a TP and on short sectors can match many medium jets in terms of flight time.
Without the flight testing of ILS/DME/VOR/NDB/MLS/Radar/SIDS/STARS beyond the limits of the average airline flight, the current Air Traffic system would be very unreliable. Turbo props such as specially modified B200 King Airs (Aerodata GmbH and Cobham Flight Inspection) are used to test these to extremely high accuracy. Auto Pilots don't have the response rate to calibrate a 50 foot roll out guidance for an airliner's CAT3 ILS AutoLand so these are flown multi crew manually at 180KIAS gear up, usually at night with a laser tracker for ILS reference. These pilots have very good manual flying skills and each crew tests around 55 airports per year in the EU.
But would a calibration pilot get an interview with a "jet" operator? In the old days yes! Now some (less enlightened) airlines just see the B200 hours as light aircraft ops and cadets are just far more profitable.
The book "Handling the big jets" by DP Davies (RIP) details how "old jets" with their swept wings heavier all up weights, greater momentum and no slipstream effects were difficult to go down and slow down and needed high power against drag on the approach (flight path stability sometimes poorly called "speed stability").
Old Jets also had very long engine spool up times which combined with the way a turbo jet produced thrust at low airspeeds meant the go-around from a low thrust setting could be fraught with sink and back of the drag curve speed control problems.
Today's engine spool up times are faster and the huge By-Pass fan effectively bites the air more like a propellor at low airspeeds than the old turbo jets ever did - this makes modern jet airliners more flight path stable on approach.
Then there's high altitude operations - sadly many modern pilots aren't aware of the changes in momentum (TAS) and it's effect on manoeuvrability or the real meaning of coffin corner (Stall and Mach Buffet variation with weight and altitude). The AF447 disaster will hopefully mean more pilots read up on it. Some airlines refuse to let their pilots fly much above FL350 because of some unwise operators trying to climb too early when far too heavy.
Turbo props operate in the worst weather into shorter runways. They face far more icing challenges and have more engine controls to consider than jet pilots.
The Q400 is pretty fast for a TP and on short sectors can match many medium jets in terms of flight time.
Without the flight testing of ILS/DME/VOR/NDB/MLS/Radar/SIDS/STARS beyond the limits of the average airline flight, the current Air Traffic system would be very unreliable. Turbo props such as specially modified B200 King Airs (Aerodata GmbH and Cobham Flight Inspection) are used to test these to extremely high accuracy. Auto Pilots don't have the response rate to calibrate a 50 foot roll out guidance for an airliner's CAT3 ILS AutoLand so these are flown multi crew manually at 180KIAS gear up, usually at night with a laser tracker for ILS reference. These pilots have very good manual flying skills and each crew tests around 55 airports per year in the EU.
But would a calibration pilot get an interview with a "jet" operator? In the old days yes! Now some (less enlightened) airlines just see the B200 hours as light aircraft ops and cadets are just far more profitable.
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Life simple in your world then Calm? Unfortunately I don't have a spare £21,000 to pay for an obsolete type rating, or any type rating for that matter, nor can I afford the "pay cut" to go and work on a 70% contract
Your assertion that there is no progression to be had is simply false. You just have to be a little more adaptable in these chastened times.
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You do not keep your fleet seniority when changing seats within Flybe.
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I think you know what he's saying, and that is if you are a year 5 or 6 F/O then you revert to a year 0 captain when moving seats. This wouldn't be the case in alot of airlines.
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Qatar and CTC
Thread was going a little off track, so thought I'd revive it instead of starting another.
Anyway, I'm also flying Turboprops and can't see any way up the ladder. The only hope I've gathered coming from this thread seemed to be to build the hours and move abroad to the ME, or if you are one of the lucky few to BA or Jet2.
Or is the better option to join CTC (if you can't beat em, join em) if you're still eligible???
Was reading pilot career news website recently. July 2011 - CTC to train Jetstar cadets. Oct 2011 - CTC selects and trains Royal Brunei cadets. This of course in addition to the likes of Easy, Monarch, BA etc. Now you have the CTC Flybe scheme. No problem one thinks, there's always the ME. May 2011 - Qatar Makes Future Supply Deal With CTC. So what now? A lot of hard work to build a couple of thousand hours experience and grab the last few opportunities, and there's a 150 hour topgun standing in the way again?
So the question in light of this is, is it now better to turn down a Turboprop job (or in my case refrain from having a type on my license) and join the CTC empire? (or at least attempt to)
Thanks for everyone's replies!
Anyway, I'm also flying Turboprops and can't see any way up the ladder. The only hope I've gathered coming from this thread seemed to be to build the hours and move abroad to the ME, or if you are one of the lucky few to BA or Jet2.
Or is the better option to join CTC (if you can't beat em, join em) if you're still eligible???
Was reading pilot career news website recently. July 2011 - CTC to train Jetstar cadets. Oct 2011 - CTC selects and trains Royal Brunei cadets. This of course in addition to the likes of Easy, Monarch, BA etc. Now you have the CTC Flybe scheme. No problem one thinks, there's always the ME. May 2011 - Qatar Makes Future Supply Deal With CTC. So what now? A lot of hard work to build a couple of thousand hours experience and grab the last few opportunities, and there's a 150 hour topgun standing in the way again?
So the question in light of this is, is it now better to turn down a Turboprop job (or in my case refrain from having a type on my license) and join the CTC empire? (or at least attempt to)
Thanks for everyone's replies!
Turbo props operate in the worst weather
Having flown TPs and large jets, I promise you that the jet operation is far more complex and demanding than flying regional TPs. As LH pilot, you'll have to be up to speed with all sorts of weather, hot ops, high density airfields, HF ops, island ops, north Atlantic ops, fatigue management etc etc etc. I am not denigrating TP ops but there is this perceived wisdom that TP ops are just as complex as jet ops.
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You forgot to tell us how seniority is king with your airline Ham Phisted, don't forget that one 
. Why don't you butt out and offer some serious advice to these guys instead of boasting on here?
I completely agree that these experienced airline pilots flying TP's are being shafted because of the current airline recruitment policies. There is a discussion running on the BALPA forums detailing this exact problem at the moment. As you would expect, "it doesn't happen in our airline" is mentioned on a few occasions, as is "I was a 200hr jet cadet"....
Try putting yourself in the shoes of one of these people, doing the same job as yourselves, the same responsibility as you, be it 777 or J31. Can you swallow that? They are paid a pittance and are being restricted from bettering their career because of the cosy relationships between the FTO's and airline bean counters. They are also sidelined by airlines recruiting non TR bods until the list of TR people are absorbed. Its not rocket science flying jets LH either. I know quite a few muppets out there doing this exact job for a particular slot snatching carrier based out of Heathrow, one even referring once to a certain dry dusty NE wind off the African coast as the Matalan, is that near the CTZI?. They NEVER flew TP's, twins or instructed, oooh... dirty words, please excuse me...!
Its time the boot was put in by someone and this farce stopped. The doors should be open to all who are qualified to do the job, not just because of a TR or an old school tie. Get some of the TP boys out there languishing in the doldrums in the right seat of a jet, you never know they might actually be quite good, what?
. Why don't you butt out and offer some serious advice to these guys instead of boasting on here?I completely agree that these experienced airline pilots flying TP's are being shafted because of the current airline recruitment policies. There is a discussion running on the BALPA forums detailing this exact problem at the moment. As you would expect, "it doesn't happen in our airline" is mentioned on a few occasions, as is "I was a 200hr jet cadet"....
Try putting yourself in the shoes of one of these people, doing the same job as yourselves, the same responsibility as you, be it 777 or J31. Can you swallow that? They are paid a pittance and are being restricted from bettering their career because of the cosy relationships between the FTO's and airline bean counters. They are also sidelined by airlines recruiting non TR bods until the list of TR people are absorbed. Its not rocket science flying jets LH either. I know quite a few muppets out there doing this exact job for a particular slot snatching carrier based out of Heathrow, one even referring once to a certain dry dusty NE wind off the African coast as the Matalan, is that near the CTZI?. They NEVER flew TP's, twins or instructed, oooh... dirty words, please excuse me...!
Its time the boot was put in by someone and this farce stopped. The doors should be open to all who are qualified to do the job, not just because of a TR or an old school tie. Get some of the TP boys out there languishing in the doldrums in the right seat of a jet, you never know they might actually be quite good, what?
Last edited by shaun ryder; 17th May 2012 at 07:54.
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So for all of those FOs stuck on the career ladder trap in the UK, what does the future hold if they go off to the Middle East and get some A320 hours? How do you then integrate back into the UK market when you want to come home? Is easyJet going to be more intersted in a cadet or a A320 rated and experienced FO? Is the ME really a trap as well?
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Of course its a honey trap! You don't have to trawl Pprune for long to find ample evidence of people trying to return to the uk and finding it nigh on impossible own sensible terms. But, at the moment, if you want to progress from TP to Jet there ain't much choice, I'm afraid. Incidentally, anyone losing their job in a UK airline (Baby, for instance) faces a similar problem.
OP, rather than CTC, have you considered just paying for a TR on the 'bus and trying to interest Easy or some such in you that way? Big gamble, but at least you are in charge of your own destiny.
OP, rather than CTC, have you considered just paying for a TR on the 'bus and trying to interest Easy or some such in you that way? Big gamble, but at least you are in charge of your own destiny.
Last edited by macdo; 17th May 2012 at 15:06.