Air France Cancels Collective Labor Agreements
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so it fits you saying in some cases an FO on a long haul flight makes more than a CPT.
and at the same time dreaming of new routes etc
Of course the pilots are not the most to blame, but once again we are part of the problem, and we definitely don't want to be part of the solution.
We needed more than a year to agree for a change in work conditions so as to organize based crew in Marseille. Did you see the number of pages of this simple agreement acting that pilots are going to work 12 days a month, and be paid 11000 euros net salary (tax on revenue are then to be paid)?
We make everything complicated, all described, long to be decided. And this is a pilot part...
and at the same time dreaming of new routes etc
Of course the pilots are not the most to blame, but once again we are part of the problem, and we definitely don't want to be part of the solution.
We needed more than a year to agree for a change in work conditions so as to organize based crew in Marseille. Did you see the number of pages of this simple agreement acting that pilots are going to work 12 days a month, and be paid 11000 euros net salary (tax on revenue are then to be paid)?
We make everything complicated, all described, long to be decided. And this is a pilot part...
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@ wiggy : Air France dénonce tous les accords collectifs - UNAC
Air France: vaste remise à plat des accords d&039;entreprise, CCE le 10 février - Air&Cosmos
@ Mungo man :
It's not on the continent.
What really matters is what you earn on a yearly basis, right ?
What is the difference between earning, say : 1300 X 12 or 1200 X 13 ?
Air France: vaste remise à plat des accords d&039;entreprise, CCE le 10 février - Air&Cosmos
@ Mungo man :
12 months pay a year is the norm in the UK.
What really matters is what you earn on a yearly basis, right ?
What is the difference between earning, say : 1300 X 12 or 1200 X 13 ?
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I don't think too many of us outside AF would mind negotiations dragging on for a year ,if the end result was 11000€ net ,flying short haul 12 days a month, from a MRS base 
Methinks you protest too much, me I would be
& crossing my fingers it lasted for a few more years.
As has been said, the companies problems are largely attributable to the "dead wood",including (certainly in the past) nieces/cousins etc of politicians & other high flyers
, employed as station managers in non-existant bases, & the like, or has that all been "tidied up" finally ?
Pilots/CC remuneration is but a drop in the ocean ,in comparison to the magnums of champagne poured down the drain by the "managers".
Methinks you protest too much, me I would be
& crossing my fingers it lasted for a few more years. As has been said, the companies problems are largely attributable to the "dead wood",including (certainly in the past) nieces/cousins etc of politicians & other high flyers
, employed as station managers in non-existant bases, & the like, or has that all been "tidied up" finally ?Pilots/CC remuneration is but a drop in the ocean ,in comparison to the magnums of champagne poured down the drain by the "managers".
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Poitiers,
Re FOs salaries vs CPT salaries : yes some long haul FOs do make more money than some Short/medium haul CPTs. Now that can be easily explained. If a long haul FO works 85 hours a month of which 70% account for night time flying, I'm not shocked (s)he's going to make more money than a Short haul CPT flying 70 hours, 90% of which are day time. Get the two on the same pattern (i.e. same number of hours and same proportions day/night), the CPTs will make more than the FOs.
I totally agree we should adapt several rules to reality. Once again, I do believe we should relieve the company from some part of the burden as we do bear some part of that burden.
Fair enough.
Now the way things are displayed at the moment is we, flight deck and CCs, are the one cause of the evil in this airline which is so completely untrue !!!
Not only is this unfair but it is counterproductive. It prevents the airline from taking the right path towards perennial and permanent recovery by distracting management away from THE real comparative DISadvantage : overheads.
Overheads are killing us. Overheads are not necessarily staff load. Not only, rather. That very first line on the income statement keeps us firmly anchored to the shore ground, whatever the amount of efforts we deliver towards cheaper operating staff. This is what "killed" Alcatel Lucent, for instance. And this is what low cost airlines and Delta Airlines don't have, or so minor it is not relevant.
And raiding crew T&Cs is a nice and comfy demeanor that keeps management in some sort of a dream. Very satisfying as well, as diminishing pilots' clout must be a wet dream for any top manager at Air France and any airline.
Yet, as our previous CEO underlined, we could save anywhere between 700 million and 1 billion euros just by transferring this load to Amsterdam and melting it into one single, centralized system working more efficiently and avoiding the heavy French social taxes. Why don't we do it ? This is what so many merging companies are seeking and achieving. Yet Air France won't move a single inch on this chapter. Ridiculous !!!
Re FOs salaries vs CPT salaries : yes some long haul FOs do make more money than some Short/medium haul CPTs. Now that can be easily explained. If a long haul FO works 85 hours a month of which 70% account for night time flying, I'm not shocked (s)he's going to make more money than a Short haul CPT flying 70 hours, 90% of which are day time. Get the two on the same pattern (i.e. same number of hours and same proportions day/night), the CPTs will make more than the FOs.
I totally agree we should adapt several rules to reality. Once again, I do believe we should relieve the company from some part of the burden as we do bear some part of that burden.
Fair enough.
Now the way things are displayed at the moment is we, flight deck and CCs, are the one cause of the evil in this airline which is so completely untrue !!!
Not only is this unfair but it is counterproductive. It prevents the airline from taking the right path towards perennial and permanent recovery by distracting management away from THE real comparative DISadvantage : overheads.
Overheads are killing us. Overheads are not necessarily staff load. Not only, rather. That very first line on the income statement keeps us firmly anchored to the shore ground, whatever the amount of efforts we deliver towards cheaper operating staff. This is what "killed" Alcatel Lucent, for instance. And this is what low cost airlines and Delta Airlines don't have, or so minor it is not relevant.
And raiding crew T&Cs is a nice and comfy demeanor that keeps management in some sort of a dream. Very satisfying as well, as diminishing pilots' clout must be a wet dream for any top manager at Air France and any airline.
Yet, as our previous CEO underlined, we could save anywhere between 700 million and 1 billion euros just by transferring this load to Amsterdam and melting it into one single, centralized system working more efficiently and avoiding the heavy French social taxes. Why don't we do it ? This is what so many merging companies are seeking and achieving. Yet Air France won't move a single inch on this chapter. Ridiculous !!!
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Ok gents I don't want to get in between an AF fistfight but, come on, isn't a long haul FO usually a very senior FO with loads of time in the company that will put him well up the salary scale? The same is the case with LH and with KLM, ofcourse there will be loads of senior FO's on long haul that might end up earning more than some CPT colleagues on SH due to seniority and specific working conditions.
How is that even comparable? Why should lowest basic CPT always be higher than highest basic FO? This way at least your gradual pay increase is insured whether or not there will be CPT positions to fill. Quite fair if you ask me.
And by the way do not forget, KLM pilots make alot of money. Probably one of the sweetest deals around at the moment, yet their company is in much better shape. I would guess it is exactly due to the reasons described by AF jock: overhead. Anyone that believes any different should have a good hard look at this industry.
A captain once told me that if we would go around with our pilots hats in the cabin asking for donations we would get paid alot more money than the company is ever prepared to give us. If this industry keeps going this way and we keep on thinking every strike is unjust and scandolous, we might have to.
How is that even comparable? Why should lowest basic CPT always be higher than highest basic FO? This way at least your gradual pay increase is insured whether or not there will be CPT positions to fill. Quite fair if you ask me.
And by the way do not forget, KLM pilots make alot of money. Probably one of the sweetest deals around at the moment, yet their company is in much better shape. I would guess it is exactly due to the reasons described by AF jock: overhead. Anyone that believes any different should have a good hard look at this industry.
A captain once told me that if we would go around with our pilots hats in the cabin asking for donations we would get paid alot more money than the company is ever prepared to give us. If this industry keeps going this way and we keep on thinking every strike is unjust and scandolous, we might have to.
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Now the governement is ready to talk again. I hope we can get back on mature footings. Not that pilots won't yield any concessions but the crushing game instituted by both AF's management and the governement is being vigourously turned down. Pilots simply won't put up with the pressure eventhough they're fully ready for discussion and adaptation.
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My understanding of this last AF pilot strike, is that it was targeted at the government and not at management.
So everybody applauding the pilot's stand against management seems to miss the point here.
I wonder when ever a pilot group won something with a strike against a government? Seems a waist of money to me. Especially in the economic environment we live in right now.
So everybody applauding the pilot's stand against management seems to miss the point here.
I wonder when ever a pilot group won something with a strike against a government? Seems a waist of money to me. Especially in the economic environment we live in right now.
My understanding of this last AF pilot strike, is that it was targeted at the government and not at management.
(specifically the laws and rules relating to minimum service levels during industrial action).
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The result of this strike is a 80 million euros loss, nothing has changed in the text proposed by government.
what a result!
Alitalia has done this a couple of years before. Unions were proudly waving flags and handing papers at the entry of their operation center in Roma.
And what happened?
we are doing the same...
what a result!
Alitalia has done this a couple of years before. Unions were proudly waving flags and handing papers at the entry of their operation center in Roma.
And what happened?
we are doing the same...
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It's a disgrace to see the way the French unions handle this political issue.
Poitiers, you are absolutely right in your comparison with the Alitalia situation. What a waste of money! Makes me fear for the future of AF/KLM
Poitiers, you are absolutely right in your comparison with the Alitalia situation. What a waste of money! Makes me fear for the future of AF/KLM
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French AF SNPL what a joke.
Moreover French AF chairman is ENA (National school of administration) graduated as most of the CAC40 CEOs.
ADMINISTRATION is the France's illness.
There's a whole bunch of hard and good workers in France but too many state employees.
And next to come the socialism back on lead of the country.
I am so sorry to say that France is dead and AF with.
Guys from KLM should put the pressure on to leave the group.
Don't blame all Frenchmen but all these office rats.
Don't be surprised to see a lot of French people looking for expatriate jobs in the very next future and these ones will probably be the best.
Moreover French AF chairman is ENA (National school of administration) graduated as most of the CAC40 CEOs.
ADMINISTRATION is the France's illness.
There's a whole bunch of hard and good workers in France but too many state employees.
And next to come the socialism back on lead of the country.
I am so sorry to say that France is dead and AF with.
Guys from KLM should put the pressure on to leave the group.
Don't blame all Frenchmen but all these office rats.
Don't be surprised to see a lot of French people looking for expatriate jobs in the very next future and these ones will probably be the best.
