Air France Cancels Collective Labor Agreements
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What have they signed up to?
48 days paid holiday, 13 days off a month of which 7 can be consecutive, a bonus 13th month?
Poor blighters. I wouldn't work under such poor conditions.
Poor blighters. I wouldn't work under such poor conditions.
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Originally posted by tomkins
Problem is that AF has been massively state funded until recent years...
Problem is that AF has been massively state funded until recent years...
Not a single penny since 1994 : BA, LH (and Brussels) watch closely.
Is that what you call "recent years".
Last edited by GerardC; 2nd Feb 2012 at 15:13.
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Those of you siding with AF bean-counters are poor jealous 
with absolut no idea about what life is all about. You should not be given the right to speak up.
Apart from the silly anyone with the minimum amount of brains believe that AF's problems reside in the FC and CC? They are a minority and not the only ones with those kind of perks.
Bonne chance pour les AF pilotes!!!
From a fellow pilot that believes that all those with decent T&C should fight hard to keep them. And should be supported!
with absolut no idea about what life is all about. You should not be given the right to speak up. Apart from the silly
anyone with the minimum amount of brains believe that AF's problems reside in the FC and CC? They are a minority and not the only ones with those kind of perks. Bonne chance pour les AF pilotes!!!
From a fellow pilot that believes that all those with decent T&C should fight hard to keep them. And should be supported!
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A one, and final, shot of 3 Bn euros in 1994.
Not a single penny since 1994 : BA, LH (and Brussels) watch closely.
Is that what you call "recent years".
Not a single penny since 1994 : BA, LH (and Brussels) watch closely.
Is that what you call "recent years".
What about the thousands of tickets bough by the french government that are never used? A cynic might call that subsidy by other means.
Only 3 bn!?
How are other companies expected to compete with an airline that has it's historical debt wiped?I'm all for employee rights. What has happened and continues to happen in a supposedly "level playing" that is Europe is just damn sickening.
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Doesn't sound all that good to be honest. Just 13 months paid, thats absolutely normal, isn't it?, i know 14 months is normal in austria for example, 13 months in germany (except Lufty, they have 12 months plus average 2 months of profitability bonus). 48 days of payed vacation isn't bad, but not all that great either. 13 days off a month is nice, but again not really all that out of range for many other carriers.
We did a pretty thorough benchmark of pay and working condition packages in europe last year for our own negotiations. Air France didn't come up as top airline by quite a bit. Yes, they are certainly not bad off, and especially the FO pay is pretty good. But there are other airlines with quite a bit better conditions. Best overall package was actually Lufthansa and they are one of the most profitable legacy carriers in europe. Pilot conditions don't decide if an airline fails or not. It is bad management decisions that do that. Of course a way too high average number of employees can be one of those decisions.
Anyway, all the best to our french colleagues, hope you can retain as much as possible of your conditions. There are way too many muppets that are more than willing to buy themselves into jobs and destroying the industry in the process already, no reason to listen to those.
We did a pretty thorough benchmark of pay and working condition packages in europe last year for our own negotiations. Air France didn't come up as top airline by quite a bit. Yes, they are certainly not bad off, and especially the FO pay is pretty good. But there are other airlines with quite a bit better conditions. Best overall package was actually Lufthansa and they are one of the most profitable legacy carriers in europe. Pilot conditions don't decide if an airline fails or not. It is bad management decisions that do that. Of course a way too high average number of employees can be one of those decisions.
Anyway, all the best to our french colleagues, hope you can retain as much as possible of your conditions. There are way too many muppets that are more than willing to buy themselves into jobs and destroying the industry in the process already, no reason to listen to those.
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Originally Posted by Narrow Runway
48 days paid holiday, 13 days off a month of which 7 can be consecutive, a bonus 13th month?
Poor blighters. I wouldn't work under such poor conditions.
Poor blighters. I wouldn't work under such poor conditions.
I hope "Narrow Runway" don't get me wrong on this, but this kind of comment is pure jealously. It's only necessary to stay on pprune for a couple hours to understand how miserable this industry has become.
Bonne chance pour le AF pilots!!!
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Gentlemen, AF pilots are by no means opposed to change. That's a given. They are fully ready for major changes within their own ranks. Thing is you could turn the whole pilots population upside down, still that old lady AF would remain the same, i.e. HUGE, MASSIVE admin crowds, working as minimal time as they can, VERY unproductive ! Huge, monumental managerial population. Outstandingly costly as well !
Pilots have been crying out for change for the past 5 years. Leaner hierarchy, procedures and processes, the possibility to shift to Transavia are just examples. Plus they had to cope with retirement age limit jumping from 60 to 65 overnight. They signed for a new contract applying to low-cost type operations on remote bases in France ("Bases Province") implying 15% increase in productivity.
Today, they're offering French government and AF's new top management even more compensations, further negociations on cost reduction. Still our good old French way of managing is leading to..."no negociations at all" and "**** off" (Father Jack way). It's been many many moons since any relevant pilots strike really stuck aircraft on the ground (only strikes by some big-mouthed tiny unions now and then, barely noticeable...). So the government and AF's top management (working hand in hand) actually believe nobody will follow up on the call for strike. They really think Af's pilots are just a bunch of big swaggering babies who will walk back in for work, remaining deaf at their unions' call for war.
Of utmost frustration is how AF pilots are depicted as old barons that won't put up with mustard being taken away from their meal trays. That's unbareable as it is so far from truth !
One more thing and I'll cut the boring talking. 2 months into his "presidency", our new CEO received a nice bonus of 600,000 euros. Just 2 months ! Also, his army of top managers' salaries are supposed to be capped for 24 months. But that comes after constant, strong, if not massive, increases over the past few years, way beyond any other industry's standards. Our previous CEO had his board vote him a 46% increase in pay. Oh dear, aint' life beautiful !!!!
I could provide an endless list of crazy facts about the way this airline is "conducted" (or mis-conducted shoud I say). It would take me ages.
Pilots have been crying out for change for the past 5 years. Leaner hierarchy, procedures and processes, the possibility to shift to Transavia are just examples. Plus they had to cope with retirement age limit jumping from 60 to 65 overnight. They signed for a new contract applying to low-cost type operations on remote bases in France ("Bases Province") implying 15% increase in productivity.
Today, they're offering French government and AF's new top management even more compensations, further negociations on cost reduction. Still our good old French way of managing is leading to..."no negociations at all" and "**** off" (Father Jack way). It's been many many moons since any relevant pilots strike really stuck aircraft on the ground (only strikes by some big-mouthed tiny unions now and then, barely noticeable...). So the government and AF's top management (working hand in hand) actually believe nobody will follow up on the call for strike. They really think Af's pilots are just a bunch of big swaggering babies who will walk back in for work, remaining deaf at their unions' call for war.
Of utmost frustration is how AF pilots are depicted as old barons that won't put up with mustard being taken away from their meal trays. That's unbareable as it is so far from truth !
One more thing and I'll cut the boring talking. 2 months into his "presidency", our new CEO received a nice bonus of 600,000 euros. Just 2 months ! Also, his army of top managers' salaries are supposed to be capped for 24 months. But that comes after constant, strong, if not massive, increases over the past few years, way beyond any other industry's standards. Our previous CEO had his board vote him a 46% increase in pay. Oh dear, aint' life beautiful !!!!
I could provide an endless list of crazy facts about the way this airline is "conducted" (or mis-conducted shoud I say). It would take me ages.
Last edited by AF jockey; 4th Feb 2012 at 16:06. Reason: Change in phrasing
Gents
Despite the links earlier in this thread I can't find any definitive statement from the AF board saying they want to cancel anything..
Not saying they don't want to but......
Despite the links earlier in this thread I can't find any definitive statement from the AF board saying they want to cancel anything..
Not saying they don't want to but......
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Originally Posted by Denti
Doesn't sound all that good to be honest. Just 13 months paid, thats absolutely normal, isn't it?, i know 14 months is normal in austria for example, 13 months in germany (except Lufty, they have 12 months plus average 2 months of profitability bonus). 48 days of payed vacation isn't bad, but not all that great either. 13 days off a month is nice, but again not really all that out of range for many other carriers.
I get 29 days paid holiday a year. I get 8 or 9 days off a month. Can't think of any airlines in UK that make AF look mediocre.
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Depends how you calculate that. If you can use off days as part of the whole vacation deal, for example in a fixed roster where you have to take only 5 days vacation to get 12 days off in a row (3 days off before, 5 days vacation, 4 days off afterwards) you do not need as many vacation days as in deals where you have to take every day you want free of work (apart from the usual off days) as vacation. Off days a month do vary, however in central europe a minimum of 10 to 11 seems the norm, some airlines have considerably more. Usually only a small part of those are requestable, somewhere between 3 and 8 days a month, the rest is planned by the company.
As i said, in central europe 13 months paid is about average, some countries require 14 months per law, in others it is just the usual amount of pay any worker receives. Personally i would prefer 12 months paid as it is better for tax reasons, however the same amount per year of course as with 13 months.
We have to accept though that work rules and regulations differ a great deal between countries, therefore some rules might sound lavish to us where they are absolutely normal in other countries within europe.
As i said, in central europe 13 months paid is about average, some countries require 14 months per law, in others it is just the usual amount of pay any worker receives. Personally i would prefer 12 months paid as it is better for tax reasons, however the same amount per year of course as with 13 months.
We have to accept though that work rules and regulations differ a great deal between countries, therefore some rules might sound lavish to us where they are absolutely normal in other countries within europe.
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For your information, we do not use the ON/OFF system. Therefore, when are we off ?
- Holidays : 48 days a year
- RPC : Repos post courrier, (rest time following a day's work : roughly 10-11 hours minimum)
- Repos mensuel : 5 days a month on short/medium hauls, 7 days a month on long haul.
You then have several limitations such as not more than 6 days ON in a row on short/medium haul or at least 2 nights between 2 long haul rosters.
I don't think our rules are so far off industry's trend, are they ?
- Holidays : 48 days a year
- RPC : Repos post courrier, (rest time following a day's work : roughly 10-11 hours minimum)
- Repos mensuel : 5 days a month on short/medium hauls, 7 days a month on long haul.
You then have several limitations such as not more than 6 days ON in a row on short/medium haul or at least 2 nights between 2 long haul rosters.
I don't think our rules are so far off industry's trend, are they ?
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Air France Cancels Collective Labor Agreements
Dutch pilot union VNV-Dalpa is reporting that AF has cancelled all collective labor agreements as of may next year. Could not find any conformation about this in the press, anyone else with more info?
Dutch pilot union VNV-Dalpa is reporting that AF has cancelled all collective labor agreements as of may next year. Could not find any conformation about this in the press, anyone else with more info?
You will find more details on rcocobis.com Connexion
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Even if AF has more holidays than everyone else, it's our choice to band together and move upwards or let ourselves be dragged down further and further while applauding the demise of those still having better conditions than us.
While "still better than work" might still be true for FR and the other LCCs, letting pay and conditions slip further and further will leave us "non-glorified" bus drivers equivalents sooner or later.
(B)ALPA-bashing and self-optimizing strategies ignoring the grand perspective are not going to achieve this. If we don't look beyond our own career and our own airline, the profession is going to degrade further.
While "still better than work" might still be true for FR and the other LCCs, letting pay and conditions slip further and further will leave us "non-glorified" bus drivers equivalents sooner or later.
(B)ALPA-bashing and self-optimizing strategies ignoring the grand perspective are not going to achieve this. If we don't look beyond our own career and our own airline, the profession is going to degrade further.
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to AF Jockey,
saying that AF rules are close to the other's is just unfair.
You only mention some rules and limitations, but what about the pay scale?
In Air France, a first officer on long haul flights is more paid than a CPT on medium haul.
In Air France, a pilot who doesn't want to work on a day he wasn't planned to can refuse.
In Air France, a pilot can refuse any change in his flight schedule.
I'm flying for Air France, I enjoy those rules, but i realize it can't just last anymore. Bureaucracy, heavy management process, number of useless employees are a reality, but a mean flight hour of 500hrs/pilot is also a reality.
Not to mention my salary.
saying that AF rules are close to the other's is just unfair.
You only mention some rules and limitations, but what about the pay scale?
In Air France, a first officer on long haul flights is more paid than a CPT on medium haul.
In Air France, a pilot who doesn't want to work on a day he wasn't planned to can refuse.
In Air France, a pilot can refuse any change in his flight schedule.
I'm flying for Air France, I enjoy those rules, but i realize it can't just last anymore. Bureaucracy, heavy management process, number of useless employees are a reality, but a mean flight hour of 500hrs/pilot is also a reality.
Not to mention my salary.
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Poitiers, you won't find me fighting for no changes at all. I'm not saying things need to remain as such until the end of times.
Regarding thos FOs making a better net salary than Medium haul CPTs, that is true with the 380s. But not so with the 340s and 744s. The 777s work such longer hours than 320 CPTs, it's only fair they're making slightly more in some cases.
As for the 550 hours/year, do we have to be blamed for this ? We would all love to fly more, to see our airline in a healthier state with new routes opening rather than a draw down on the entire program.
Regarding thos FOs making a better net salary than Medium haul CPTs, that is true with the 380s. But not so with the 340s and 744s. The 777s work such longer hours than 320 CPTs, it's only fair they're making slightly more in some cases.
As for the 550 hours/year, do we have to be blamed for this ? We would all love to fly more, to see our airline in a healthier state with new routes opening rather than a draw down on the entire program.