Turboprop command or jet F/O
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Hi! I see many perspectives here and I must say that most of the people here are crazy for the shiney jets which I quite understand BUT here's mine: I spent 9 years in the right seat with my present company on the 737 CL and NG and I really enjoyed the most of it.With current future lookouts in Europe it would have been another 6 years to swap seats so I was really happy to take on the TP command when it was offered and never regretted it.If you stuck in the right seat for whatever reason after a while you loose interest and ambition and it is hard to recover from that situation. All I can say is that one of my well respected instructor said that is better be a cpt on a TP than an FO on the space shuttle.
cheers
cheers
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Had a lively exchange with Norman Stanley Fletcher (Easyjet) about this subject a few years ago.
FWIW, I'm one of three former Q400 capts to make the jump from LHS turbo prop to LHS A300-600. It was really no big deal and we all managed the course in minimum time.
IMHO, what counts is the quality of the operator and not type you fly. That said, not all employers are as broad-minded as ours and you will quite likely come up against the 'TP hours are worth nothing' mentality from time to time so it's a hard one to call.
Good luck whatever you choose.
FWIW, I'm one of three former Q400 capts to make the jump from LHS turbo prop to LHS A300-600. It was really no big deal and we all managed the course in minimum time.
IMHO, what counts is the quality of the operator and not type you fly. That said, not all employers are as broad-minded as ours and you will quite likely come up against the 'TP hours are worth nothing' mentality from time to time so it's a hard one to call.
Good luck whatever you choose.
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Take the jet time!
The first question they will ask you when you you turn thirty and they need a commander will be "how much jet time do you have?"
Turbo prop command time will count for nothing ( Of my 16209 hours, 7000hrs command on the turbo prop, I should know, the rest is jet time)
Take the jet time, it all counts, every last minute
The first question they will ask you when you you turn thirty and they need a commander will be "how much jet time do you have?"
Turbo prop command time will count for nothing ( Of my 16209 hours, 7000hrs command on the turbo prop, I should know, the rest is jet time)
Take the jet time, it all counts, every last minute
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With jet time (on something like an E170 or E195), at least you will have the "option" to be considered by some of the Middle Eastern airlines - IF THAT IS OF INTEREST TO YOU. The Middle East is certainly not for everyone - but that is where the growth is located. You will not get looked at by those airlines if you are in the LHS on the Q400 - at least that is what I have heard. So, if you want that option (you are open to it), then getting jet time now makes more sense.
You have to decide what you want - if you want to fly for BA in the future, then maybe Q400 Captain time makes more sense and make you more competitive and you can afford to wait it out. I've heard the Q400 is lovely to fly and a great experience builder - but you already have that experience as an FO. If you need jet time now because you might be interested in flying in the Middle East, the E195 FO seat makes more sense for the time being. Decide what you want in terms of future options and then make your decision.
Good luck!
You have to decide what you want - if you want to fly for BA in the future, then maybe Q400 Captain time makes more sense and make you more competitive and you can afford to wait it out. I've heard the Q400 is lovely to fly and a great experience builder - but you already have that experience as an FO. If you need jet time now because you might be interested in flying in the Middle East, the E195 FO seat makes more sense for the time being. Decide what you want in terms of future options and then make your decision.
Good luck!
Last edited by Iver; 29th Jan 2012 at 20:17.
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This is unfortunately the state of aviation in Europe, and its not going to change any time soon. Experience in "real flying" and hard work is not appreciated any more as there are armies of P2F "pilots" waiting to sell their souls....sorry, let me rephrase that - They are waiting to PAY to sell their souls!! 
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Could someone tell me where I'm going to take my 2000 Ejet hours? Easy, Ryan, monarch, Thomson, Thomas Cook?? All of those are either cadet only employers or type rated only. BA and jet2 will take you with TP command time and the sandpit isn't for me (and many others).
You are all talking like its still 2007 and airlines care what experience you have. Times have changed and it really doesn't matter any more, in fact the less experience the better. Unless you're rated or ready to take a shafting you're not going anywhere so take the option that pays the most and try and retire ASAP.
You are all talking like its still 2007 and airlines care what experience you have. Times have changed and it really doesn't matter any more, in fact the less experience the better. Unless you're rated or ready to take a shafting you're not going anywhere so take the option that pays the most and try and retire ASAP.
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How unusual, a Pprune thread full of intelligent observation and balanced comment!
Some airlines do realise the benefit of TP hours. After sever years of DE Cadets, the policy was changed last year at TCX so that cadets would spend 2 years at FlyBe before coming onto the TC Fleet. I suspect that there is finally a recognition that the current regime stretches the resources of the weaker Captains and the weaker Cadets. Things may well move very slowly back in favour of some TP(or small jet) work experience before going onto a big jet, and it may well be the company insurers who begin to insist on it. Unfortunately, this info does not assist the OP.
Secondly, if you do commit to TP, for whatever reason, you are condemning yourself to a lifetime of poor wages. Generally, TP Capt and Jet FO on a proper contract with a respectable airline are not far apart, but with the JET FO having the option of promotion to JET Capt. which will be at least 15k more and if you are lucky with seniority pay, a top end of 100kplus.
Even if you start on poverty jet wages, your upside is still greater than the TP Capt.
There are plenty of jet jobs globally, at the moment, but history teaches that things change fast, so grab it while you can.
And take the long view, how much and how secure will I be in 5 years times, is more important than the downpayment on a nice car tomorrow.
UN614, you will get a good job in the ME FE with your experience, if you want to progress thats the only option unless very lucky.
Some airlines do realise the benefit of TP hours. After sever years of DE Cadets, the policy was changed last year at TCX so that cadets would spend 2 years at FlyBe before coming onto the TC Fleet. I suspect that there is finally a recognition that the current regime stretches the resources of the weaker Captains and the weaker Cadets. Things may well move very slowly back in favour of some TP(or small jet) work experience before going onto a big jet, and it may well be the company insurers who begin to insist on it. Unfortunately, this info does not assist the OP.
Secondly, if you do commit to TP, for whatever reason, you are condemning yourself to a lifetime of poor wages. Generally, TP Capt and Jet FO on a proper contract with a respectable airline are not far apart, but with the JET FO having the option of promotion to JET Capt. which will be at least 15k more and if you are lucky with seniority pay, a top end of 100kplus.
Even if you start on poverty jet wages, your upside is still greater than the TP Capt.
There are plenty of jet jobs globally, at the moment, but history teaches that things change fast, so grab it while you can.
And take the long view, how much and how secure will I be in 5 years times, is more important than the downpayment on a nice car tomorrow.
UN614, you will get a good job in the ME FE with your experience, if you want to progress thats the only option unless very lucky.
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BB i had exactly the same conundrum at my operator, LHS Dash or RHS 195, i took the Embraer route and haven't looked back since. If your Dash reliability is anything like ours the mover to Miss Brazil will be like a hurricane of fresh air for you.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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Never ever turn down command.
Do so and you may wait 20 years or more for the opportunity to come around again.
Nothing wrong with turboprops either. I spent two years driving one round the UK and near Europe and that is where I really learned to fly. The fact that 12 year olds can buy their way into the RHS of an Airbus has got to tell you something about the magnitude of the challenge there.
And before everyone starts, I have indeed flown the Airbus and currently reside in a 747-8. So TP's never did me any harm. Quite the opposite in fact.
Do so and you may wait 20 years or more for the opportunity to come around again.
Nothing wrong with turboprops either. I spent two years driving one round the UK and near Europe and that is where I really learned to fly. The fact that 12 year olds can buy their way into the RHS of an Airbus has got to tell you something about the magnitude of the challenge there.
And before everyone starts, I have indeed flown the Airbus and currently reside in a 747-8. So TP's never did me any harm. Quite the opposite in fact.
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Agree with ZEDDBE
Proper airlines want future captains not eternal FOs. When you get an interview with a DFO/Chief Pilot they will be checking your command potential from the get go.
If things go downhill in the EU, a Q400 Command allows you to take overseas jobs that an FO can't get be that in China, Vietnam or ME.
With the ever rising cost of JetA1 turboprops are likely to make a comeback - ATR have already had one of their best sales years in 2011.
Going from Q400 to an Airbus is not a big deal.
Proper airlines want future captains not eternal FOs. When you get an interview with a DFO/Chief Pilot they will be checking your command potential from the get go.
If things go downhill in the EU, a Q400 Command allows you to take overseas jobs that an FO can't get be that in China, Vietnam or ME.
With the ever rising cost of JetA1 turboprops are likely to make a comeback - ATR have already had one of their best sales years in 2011.
Going from Q400 to an Airbus is not a big deal.
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Going from Q400 to an Airbus is not a big deal.
I know people who moved onto a 777 or 748, with only Q400 hours in their log (a few lucky ones). And many performed better than the stick flyers.
Too many jobs overseas require those "on type" or "jet" hours.
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Too many jobs overseas require those "on type" or "jet" hours.
You said on your initial post that you want to fly cargo. TP hours are good for DHL, EAT, TNT, GSS and if you have enough of them, Cagoloux. Some of these airlines promote fast, so they may see an upgrade as a bigger deal than some jet hours. Other airlines that look at guys with TP time are BA, Fly Dubai and Qatar airways. Guys have also gone into decent small / mid size biz jet jobs from the Q400 in the LHS.
In your shoes, I'd take the TP command, probably better pay and will freshen things up. If the E190 will lead to a quick LHS, take that, but if it doesn't you'll be stuck with a lot of FO time and employers wondering if you would want or be able to handle and upgrade.
PS I'm LHS in a TP and would love to move on. I have found many employers start to take you seriously as a Captain and it has opened up some interesting possibilities.
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At your age, I'd go for the jet and broaden your options for the future. There are plenty of ex-jet pilots who chose to return to turboprops and seemed to have no difficulty doing so but there are probably more turboprop pilots who are stuck there finding it difficult to get a jet job for the reasons mentioned above.
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I find myself in a similar situation to yourself, few more hours, though I'm just happy to go along with whatever happens.
A friend recently asked me "where do you want to be in 5 years?" and "which of the available paths will get you there first?" (Or at all?!)
Do remember, Flybe will be a completely different airline in 5 years. There will be nearly 50 Embraers in fleet and far less Q4's.
With attrition, retirements and the changing fleet its likely your upcoming left hand seat position will be a Jet position within 5 years (or so).
A friend recently asked me "where do you want to be in 5 years?" and "which of the available paths will get you there first?" (Or at all?!)
Do remember, Flybe will be a completely different airline in 5 years. There will be nearly 50 Embraers in fleet and far less Q4's.
With attrition, retirements and the changing fleet its likely your upcoming left hand seat position will be a Jet position within 5 years (or so).
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True. It's a small German operator maybe most of you won't know
Augsburg Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Augsburg Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Need sunnies to cut the glare from the SHINY JET SYNDROME here.
Seriously, a jungle jet is not a wide body and you're still in the right seat. Command in any crew aircraft will prep you for a future command. Sitting in the right seat for another 5 years will prep you for...another five years in the right seat.
Unless you plan to get a useful type (like a 747 or 777, not an embraer) in the right seat and move to another job, you NEVER TURN DOWN COMMAND.
Kids these days...
