EZY Cadet Contracts

[Alexander de Meerkat]

no sponsor - just to remove any doubt from your mind, I have nothing to do with CTC. I did not enter aviation through them and agree that their stranglehold on new entrant flying is not good for the industry. The fact is, nonetheless, that they have become the primary way into airline flying. I am not agreeing with that, but recognise that if you want to become an Airbus pilot, that is what you must do. I actually agree with EZY, that we should be taking pilots from the turboprop community (that is how I came to fly an Airbus). It is also true to say, that taking people from such backgrounds does not guarantee success at all - we have had our strugglers from there too.

I do not buy into Robert G. Mugabe's argument. If you fly with people whose performance is unsatisfactory then you have a duty to report that to the Training Department so they can be retrained to proficiency. It is always difficult to judge people by their comments on PPRuNe - I know that myself due to the countless inane assumptions made about me at different times. Nonetheless, given your attitude, you may find you are one of the Captains that the cadets dread being with, and consequently their performance suffers accordingly. A Captain can go a long way to create an atmosphere as well as destroy it. You may indeed be a great guy who is expressing genuine concerns or a pain in the neck who people dread being with - only the people you fly with will know that. As we all know, the worst CRM catastrophes are the people least aware that there is anything wrong with the way they conduct themselves. Your beliefs about the cadets would be very insulting to most of them - I just consider them my colleagues who need a hand from time to time, in the same way I did at their stage.

[angelorange]

Lies, Damn lies and

Maxedout :How much debt have you got? Would you like another £20k debt for a shiny jet TR? Oh and a mandatory JOC course first (Flight International said UK CAA was considering for all non MPL frozen ATPLs!). Ah yes CTC can do one of those for....how much!?!

Then you will be in the same position as now but with an extra £20k loan to repay. Nobody takes zero hour A320/B737 pilots in the UK at least.

Oh, I see then you pay £20k to 30k for 500h "Line training" with an airline banned by FAA and EU.

Come back home to no job as all the requirements are 1000h on type or sorry we don't understand your CV - where did you get those 500h?

Don't listen to Bzb or AdMeerkat! They are looking at the universe through a CTC straw and describing the one planet they can see as if no others exist! Yes EZY have 60% cadet FOs and maybe more at Gatwick. But that looks set to change:

1. With the latest revelations regarding piloting ability and fatigue issues of Flexi deals. Such issues grounded Tiger in Australia recently and now Jetstar cadet scheme is under investigation ( Jetstar cadet scheme under scrutiny )

2. Most of us know what the P2F Captain/Fatigued FO issues surrounding the Colgan crash of 2009 has done to US pilot recruitment and FAA pilot rest requirements.

3. LoCos such as Jet2 have shown you can have a broad spectrum of recruitment and even fund a pilot's TR with a 3 year bond + full pay on the line.

GA in EU is tough but even Alan Sugar thinks it will get better as those businesses that survive the financial drought start to pull through and get back to aviation.

Have you really tried all the TP operators in the UK? EU? In Africa? In Asia?

I know of several pilots who have just started with Loganair and Eastern. Yes, Flybe have their own MPL scheme which has reduced intake from Instructors and other CPLs but the jobs are out there if you are willing to travel and make connections. PPRUNE is not the likeliest place to make them but there are a few genuine pilots willing to assist out there.

Chin up!

[angelorange]

Antonov re: Qatar

Qatar SO is actually an FO job - it is nothing like a Cathay SO/Cruise only pilot position. Expect to b an SO for 6 months to 1 year max - and you don't make the Capt's bed - you fly the RHS for whole sector incl. T/O and Landing.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Re NSF's comments about the guys struggling just needing help in getting more experience. I agree with the principle, however I disagree that flying one of our buses on the line is the correct theatre to be doing this. I believe travelling joe public might have something to say about this if a serious exposé of our experience levels was conducted in a more public domain.

As for CTC, my and others experience of them matches the old geezers topping up pensions description above. I came from a TP background and had themissfortune to do my 737 rating at CTC. Having allready witnessed training in another airline arena, I had something to compare CTC with when I arrived and the place and it's attitudes were shocking, very unprofessional and different SOPs every day depending on what background today's instructor had. It was nothing but a greedy self serving sausage factory then, since infecting our career with its cancerous ways I do not believe it has become any better.

I do have children who are interested in aviation. They will NOT be going near a CTC cadet scheme if I have a breath in my body or with my cash. In the same way as Captain Sully described on the hill, I do not wish my kids to follow me in my career. I would not inflict the indignity of it upon them.

And Norm, dear chap, a clear path for cadets one day becoming a full time 5354 captain with us? Really? In the past perhaps, but now? What radar are you using to see through the clutter to see this clear path? If things like the current Merlin proposal continue and certain ops directors get their way by the time someone joining today as a flexi CTC cadet is ready for command the job will be unrecognisable compared to the t's and c's you and I enjoy now. The race to the bottom continues unchecked IMHO.

[Bokkenrijder]

CTC is without doubt largely responsible for the demise of the professional career here in the UK. Having done a TR at CTC, I can honestly say their training was second rate. The place is populated by old geezers topping up their large final salary pensions, or rather suspect operators.

Hahaha, oh yes that brings back the memories of good ol' RAF Dibden! What a bunch of self righteous doorknobs!

I have to say though that line training in EZY (at least back when I was there) was excellent and the overall line flying experience really helped me a lot in my next job. So reading here and also hearing from ex-colleagues (!) about the sometimes questionable quality of the present generation of cadets makes me wonder what's happening. Pay peanuts and get monkeys I suppose...

Bealzebub, AdM, what is your interest in this stuff? Are you shareholders / managers in CTC or in EZY and profiting from every overprized training a cadet buys? Your constant touting of untruths are astonishing.

I completely agree with you Studi! Very vague indeed why they are so actively defending a rotten system...

[Bealzebub]

Very vague indeed

Vague? I don't think we could have explained in any greater depth or clarity the reasoning behind the comments or the basis of the observations. What is it that you want to hear (that hasn't already been said,) that would make it any less "vague" for you?

[Robert G Mugabe]

I do not buy into Robert G. Mugabe's argument. If you fly with people whose performance is unsatisfactory then you have a duty to report that to the Training Department so they can be retrained to proficiency

I will always report people who's performance is unsatisfactory as I will praise people who's performance is above average.

However it is slightly unnerving when one gets gypsies warnings from trainers to " watch out for so and so as they are persistently of a below easyJet standard".

To observe the variations of flare technique on landing is mildly "hollow stomach inducing"

I have been in the simulator when my RHS colleague ( on first simulator after line training ) failed due to inadequate proficiency during manual flight.

When our SOP's are limited to the following it does imply a lowering of the mean standard

1. Flap 3 landings will not be trained during First/Second Officer line training.
First/Second Officers joining with no previous airline experience (i.e. OAA/CTC) will retain their AIMS 3* restriction until successful completion of their first recurrent simulator check

2. Max. X-Wind including gusts:– 15kts for FO (with 2 stripes)

3. No PLANNED tailwind landings for 3* F/Os, if the conditions change after the
commencement of the final approach the F/O should continue with the landing.
No Flap 3 landing for 3* F/Os unless in emergency requiring F/O & Flap 3
landing

My personal opinion is ; as I said before ; as a generalisation and an observation the latest batches of the product are not as good as they used to be. So either the training provided by CTC is not as good or the raw material is inferior. One Cadet up north allegedly was convinced the Med was the Atlantic when asked. Great situational awareness.

In addition most of those who struggle seem not to have a connection to the aircraft ( seat of the pants flying to old timers ). This must be due to the fact the training is on very benign types such as the twin star and dare I say it the Airbus. PowerAttitudeTrim and Attitude PowerTrim are concepts some would find foreign.

Your beliefs about the cadets would be very insulting to most of them - I just consider them my colleagues who need a hand from time to time, in the same way I did at their stage.

My beliefs about cadets has no reflection on how I react to/with them. Much the same way my thoughts with regard to gender/sexual orientation/colour and religion have no bearing to how I treat people. Each to their own as long as it does not affect me adversely.

Good luck to those about to pay to fly.Get value for your money.

[Bokkenrijder]

Very vague indeed

Vague? I don't think we could have explained in any greater depth or clarity the reasoning behind the comments or the basis of the observations. What is it that you want to hear (that hasn't already been said,) that would make it any less "vague" for you?

Ah yes, the good old selective quoting...

Perhaps you care to comment on the complete sentence, including the underlined part?

Very vague indeed why they are so actively defending a rotten system...

How do you, as a pilot, gain anything by actively defending the "pay peanut, get monkeys" scheme which is undermining the entire industry? Aren't you afraid it will eventually dilute your salary, your T&C's and the value of your share options as well? Or are you compensating this potential loss somewhere else?

[Bealzebub]

Very vague indeed why they are so actively defending a rotten system...

Because, as I have already stated:

This route provided a solid base into an airline apprenticeship, and for the succesfull applicants worked well. This same scheme is in many respects the same format as that recently adopted By British airways for their FPP cadet programme. It is also the format still used (in conjunction with CTC) by a couple of other companies still recruiting cadets.

Again, as I already stated:

Expansion in cadet (entry level) programmes is increasingly going to follow this model. The schools themselves have spent the last few years investing in the infrastructure, and the airlines are going to tailor their cadet programmes around that infrastructure.

And again:

ADM says that he would advise his son to follow this route as the best "most certain" route into flying an airbus. Accepting that there is nothing "certain" about it, I would definetaly have to agree. That is the advice I would give to my son or daughter as well.

So once again I ask, and perhaps this time you will actually answer.
What is it that you want to hear (that hasn't already been said,) that would make it any less "vague" for you?

P.S

How do you, as a pilot, gain anything by actively defending the "pay peanut, get monkeys" scheme which is undermining the entire industry? Aren't you afraid it will eventually dilute your salary, your T&C's and the value of your share options as well? Or are you compensating this potential loss somewhere else?

I don't regard it as a "pay peanut(s) get monkeys" scheme. I doubt of all the things that do dilute my salary, the experience levels of First officers who are recruited has a great deal of correlation at this point in time. T&C's have been influenced to an unprecedented degree, by the massive expansion in lo-cost operations. That expansion has been fuelled by demand, and survival for existing carriers is largely a matter of adapt or fail. I don't have any share options so as "a potential loss" it is an equally potential moot point as to where compensation might be sought.

[Bokkenrijder]

What is it that you want to hear (that hasn't already been said,) that would make it any less "vague" for you?

Nothing much really, I think you have exposed yourself enough. Both Studi (post nr 137) and ezydriver (post 138) have hit the nail on the head IMO;

And Norm, dear chap, a clear path for cadets one day becoming a full time 5354 captain with us? Really? In the past perhaps, but now? What radar are you using to see through the clutter to see this clear path? If things like the current Merlin proposal continue and certain ops directors get their way by the time someone joining today as a flexi CTC cadet is ready for command the job will be unrecognisable compared to the t's and c's you and I enjoy now. The race to the bottom continues unchecked IMHO.

Once the amount of lower talented guys has reached critical mass in a few years, the people who were responsible for it have for a long time ridden into the sunset with a nice sum of money.

The only thing you are doing here is giving more fuel to the race to the bottom, but obviously you don't care much about what it does to future salaries. As long as your salary and contract is safe, right?

ADM says that he would advise his son to follow this route as the best "most certain" route into flying an airbus. Accepting that there is nothing "certain" about it, I would definetaly have to agree. That is the advice I would give to my son or daughter as well.

Let's face it, there are already way to many pilots out there, so why should anyone be entitled to go from zero to A319 in 200 hours?

What's this sheer madness of training more and more 200 hour FMGC button pushers in an economy where there are thousands of capable and unemployed jet rated pilots? And speaking of which, why doesn't EZY employ experienced drivers?

Expansion in cadet (entry level) programmes is increasingly going to follow this model. The schools themselves have spent the last few years investing in the infrastructure, and the airlines are going to tailor their cadet programmes around that infrastructure.

Could it be that airlines like EZY don't hire experienced pilots anymore because flying schools have invested way too much money in cadets schemes and need a constant stream of gullible souls in order to have enough turnover to avoid them going bankrupt? Is that why you are promoting this nonsense here, one hand washes the other? The airlines get cheap 200 hour cadets, the schools get money and you get your training jobs? And to hell with the consequences to T&C's right?

Still, as I said: it's very vague why anyone would be actively defending such a rotten system and be deliberately cutting into their own flesh like this, as clearly nobody is really benefiting from this except for a certain flying school and a certain airline...

[Narrow Runway]

Bealzebub

If you don't think there is a correlation between the low pay for FO's and the deteriorating conditions generally in our industry, then you are deluded.

You really sound more like McCall & Brady's fantasy wet dream material with such compliant talk.

Perhaps you're near enough retirement to not give a sh1t?

I'm at a loss as to your rationale.

[X-Centric]

I'd wager that BB is involved as a mentor pilot for their MON CTC Wings thing and thus is hopeful of future earnings ... .
Why are you so myopic that you can't/won't see that when this scheme first started (in 1995/6) it was the start of t+c's going down the pan (by employing guys/gals for effectively nothing), and over the years , regardless of the end products /changing market conditions (the 757 fleet manager for one!) , CTC have progressively made it financially worse for the newbie whilst casually lining their own pockets .
You genuinely should be ashamed of yourself BB , they have helped destroy this profession .

[nabanoba]

They are not defending a rotten system. They have been at pains to point out that they do not agree with the system. They are merely stating THEIR opinion that CTC is the best way to get into the airline business in the current system. What in the world is there not to understand about that.

The last 3 pages have been full of people disagreeing with Beazlebub and ADM, but no one has shown a better way to get into the airline industry than CTC. If there is a better way in lets hear it. If not then let's stop hearing this vested interests bull.

[Robert G Mugabe]

Unfortunately there seems to be very few other ways to get into the industry. In short you could call it a monopoly. The CAA should really assess if this monopoly is resulting in standards falling.

That would be like turkeys voting for christmas.

Very unlikely to happen.

Out

[Bealzebub]

If you don't think there is a correlation between the low pay for FO's and the deteriorating conditions generally in our industry, then you are deluded.

Yes undoubtably. The deteriorating rewards are entirely consistent with the supply outstripping demand in the marketplace. At this point in time that hasn't made much of an inroad into command salaries, but eventually it will.

The question I was asked was:

Aren't you afraid it will eventually dilute your salary

and the reply I gave was:

I doubt of all the things that do dilute my salary, the experience levels of First officers who are recruited has a great deal of correlation at this point in time.

Demand for pilots outside of certain middle and far Eastern markets is patchy and weak. T&C's generally have been significantly affected across the board by the wholesale "slash & burn" in the drive to eliminate cost. Airlines in competition with the larger and leaner lo-co newcomers (in relative terms) have had to adapt to these new realities. Cadet salaries reflect the experience level of these pilots. Usually this is the case for the first year or two and then the "low experience" factor becomes less significant in the equation. If cadets disappeared tommorow to be replaced by ATPL holding F/O's would there be any real shortage? I doubt it, so it is unlikely that there would be any real supply pressure on the general T&C's. Command salaries are at this point largely unaffected by F/O salaries, which (other than the cadet savings) remain in proportion to those that have existed previously.

Across the industry generally, there has been an elimination of such things as final salary pension schemes, and many of the lifestyle benefits that never were a feature of the Lo-Co operators. Cost of living pay rises have been pared back to the bone. However this is true right across the broader economic spectrum as well. To suggest that cadets are in any meaningful way to blame for these reductions is ludicrous. Given the experience levels generally required for command consideration, a glut of very low hour cadets actually reduces the suppy side of the command equation moreso than a glut of experienced F/O's would.

So yes, I doubt of all the things that do dilute my salary, the experience levels of First officers who are recruited has a great deal of correlation at this point in time. I hope that explains the rationale and also the context of the answer in relation to the question that was asked.

You are on a different planet! You got to be mangement or a wannabee!

Ezy with characteristic consistency, you are wrong, wrong and wrong! Although to be fair, I do not know which planet you are on, so I might have to defer on that point.

[Bokkenrijder]

That is why BB and AdM must have some personal interest in this CTC Easy scheme, whatever it is. May be they are freelancers at CTC. It is obvious if someone only wanted to point out the best way into the industry he would not falsifying the truth to such an extent and sell the most scamiest option.

Exactly Studi! Ironically enough the good old and trusted self improver route into EZY (turbo prop, military) has more of less been closed off by... CTC!

Why are you so myopic that you can't/won't see that when this scheme first started (in 1995/6) it was the start of t+c's going down the pan (by employing guys/gals for effectively nothing), and over the years , regardless of the end products /changing market conditions (the 757 fleet manager for one!) , CTC have progressively made it financially worse for the newbie whilst casually lining their own pockets .

Exactly!
As always, look at who profits and that will explain a lot of what they are posting here on PPrUne!

p.s. thankfully for BB and ADM, they have now found some unexpected support all the way from Korea! 안녕하세요 and 환영합니다

[Bealzebub]

That is why BB and AdM must have some personal interest in this CTC Easy scheme, whatever it is. May be they are freelancers at CTC. It is obvious if someone only wanted to point out the best way into the industry he would not pick CTC/Easy as the best way and falsifying the truth to such an extent and sell the most scamiest option.

You really wont take the fact on board will you? I don't "freelance" or anything else at CTC. You may recall I stated quite clearly that:

I don't work for them or draw any other benefit.

I am neither a manager or shareholder in either company, and I do not profit in anything related to this subject.

I am simply repeating myself. If you choose not to believe it, that is a matter for you, but it doesn't change the fact.

In the top two "Better options" that you listed:

Better options?
1. BA Cadetship
2. Some other sponsorships

The first is administered by APL, a CTC company.
The second involves other companies that also use CTC for their own cadet programmes.

Perhaps those companies have failed to recognise the "scam" you erroneously claim exists. If so, they clearly lack your insight as in some cases they have been exercising these options for over 15 years!

[Poose]

Death of the Self Improver...

Gentlemen,

Here is some of the advice being offered to aspiring pilots in the 'Wannabes' section from some of the posters on here.

I don't like to gang up on anyone... but this might make interesting reading.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ver-route.html

[Bealzebub]

Yes it makes interesting reading, and your point is?

Let me guess, the management, freelance, shareholder conspiracy?

[FANS]

It tells you all you need that this CTC debate is on the T&Cs section rather than the Wannabes.

I think that it’s never been easier or quicker to become a jet, airline FO than in the last few years. All you need is cash and a certain view on risk – but generally the wealthier you/your parents, the less worried you’ll be about paying the £100k training costs and hence the CTC route works.

There is clearly going to be a reason why EZY will employ (and near exclusively in recent years) so many 200 hr FOs, when many experienced pilots are out there – and it’s not because CTC’s product is that good!


If your goal is to become an A320 FO in a short timescale and you have the funds, CTC is perfect. Don’t complain about the T&C’s – that’s why you’re there rather than an ex-flybe chap. It really is that simple.

PS – haven’t read the last 100+ posts so apologies if repeating a previous post