EZY Cadet Contracts

[Bealzebub]

Narrow runway.

I absolutely agree with you. Keep repeating those numbers until they don't sound quite so glib. These are mortgage numbers, and indeed a second mortgage is often how they are secured. If you are the primary borrower they will indeed affect your ability to obtain a home purchase mortgage.

However as ADM has said, they are the routes into the career at this level. There are no guarantees, and whether it is an acceptable gamble for an individual is a matter for the individual. For those that are successful, some should be able to discharge their obligation within 5 years. It might be a very frugal 5 years, but if you are in your early twenties, being in your mid/late twenties with those training debts discharged, 4000 airline hours under your belt, a possible command looming on the horizon, and the ability to whinge about more mundane things, probably isn't the worst prospect in the world.

I am not offering "advice" to get into debt. The path to success is littered with the bodies of those who didn't succeed. Make no mistake it is a very risky venture. However the comment or "advice" if you want to call it that, is to those who have already decided to commit. I have been saying this for a few years now, and this is what I believe ADM is also saying. If this is your ambition within a short term timescale, then this is your best opportunity of achieving that ambition.

I fly with the "product" every day. It is a good "product." The airlines like it.

Rail against it with pleasure, but it is the reality of an airline pilots cadet apprenticeship in the second decade of the 21st century. I can't see that changing in the next decade. All I do see is a growth in this sector of the market, and a streamlining of the system into MPL over the next few years.

[Bealzebub]

EZY,

Fair enough. That is your experience in the environment and culture you work in.

I have flown with them for the last 15 years, and the experience has clearly been very different to yours. That is why I made the comment.

Welcome to PPRuNe.

[skianyn vannin]

I too fly with the product everyday, and must agree with ezy. I'm sure these guys and girls are keen, and are masters of the fmgc, but i'm afraid many of them have no idea about energy and profile management or how to actually land the aircraft. Only yesterday I was in the crewroom and overheard a trainer having to take someone off line after a few months because he couldn't fly an approach and land. What is going on in this company?

The airlines like them because they are cheap, and easily manipulated

[maxed-out]

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES

Not all of us have our sites set on "big shiny jets" and we don't all bemoan the lower salaries that TP First Officers take home. When I set out on my modular journey in early 2007, I was more than happy to find employment on a TP and take a massive salary cut compared to what I'm doing now. It was a career change and accepted all the highs and lows that came with that.

Having started my third season this year doing a weekend GA gig (unpaid) to keep current and not a sniff of a tp FO job yet, pray tell where all these TP jobs are? And yes I have networked for 3+ years, am flexible and am willing to travel world-wide!

Now I'm carefully considering an SSTR too. Utter madness I know.

Not having a personal go at you. Just wanted you to maybe see the world through our eyes a bit.

[nabanoba]

By no means did i suggest that 93k sterling is a low number. But it is 27k less than the figure being quoted. Which means it will take 2 years less for me to save for. Pretty substantial no?

I know it is an astronomical figure. But I have spent years researching and CTC is the only gig in town if I want to become a pilot. This isn't about me wanting to take shortcuts. It's not a shortcut. It's the only way.

Modular is cheaper, but there is zero logic in spending 60k to go down that route and then find that no one will touch you without a TR and 500+ hours on type. If I went the modular route I would have no chance of a job. With CTC at least I have a shot.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

nobanoba - you are absolutely right. You will be aware that there are no absolute guarantees in aviation, but in as much as one exists, CTC is it. They have provided jobs, sooner or later, for just about every successful graduate of their schemes - not many schools can say that.

Narrow Runway - as far as I can tell, the essence of your advice is to get a 'real career' elsewhere. That is excellent if you do not want to be an airline pilot, but the nature of people on here is that they probably do. If that is what you want to do, and many young people still want to do just that, then the only credible way is through the likes of CTC. To say that they should get a 'real career' elsewhere is just crass. There are countless doctors who have amazing qualifications but cannot get jobs - a terrible waste of years at university. That does not stop them wanting to be doctors. And just out of interest, as one who has a son finishing university who does not want to be a pilot, I do not see a pile of jobs out there waiting to drag him fr om rags to riches in 5 years.

[Bealzebub]

If I can take that observation one step further. For the last few months now, all of the successful graduates of the Wings courses have been transitioning straight into airline placements with almost no break at all. I am aware of one course who had to chase up their licence issue as they were starting with their airline the following week. Over the last couple of years that has not always been the reality, and given that Winter/Spring is always the strongest induction and training period, it might not be so in the next few months. However, as more airlines start to gear up for cadet recruitment, this looks like a very strong "ace card" if you want to be a serious player.

[Narrow Runway]

AdM

No, you are just reading what you want to read.

What I said was: "My advice would be: Fly for fun, get a real career elsewhere.

Not perhaps what the young Meerkat or Beazlebub Cubs want to hear, but more sane."

I specifically mentioned Meerkat or Beazlebub Cubs. i.e. Your offspring.

If you can't explain, in realistic terms, how far this profession has fallen, how long it'll take to pay back the debts and how unlikely it is that they will ever enjoy the rewards you do (even in a low cost airline), then I think you aren't telling the whole story.

I'm a father. My son is aeroplane mad, but I'll be telling him EVERYTHING, warts and all. If he still wants to go for it in years to come, then I will need to review it then. But, I sincerely hope that things may have changed for the better by then, but I know they won't - if anything, the FTO's will have just got even greedier and the PTF route will be engrained.

[Robert G Mugabe]

I too fly with the product everyday, and must agree with ezy. I'm sure these guys and girls are keen, and are masters of the fmgc, but i'm afraid many of them have no idea about energy and profile management or how to actually land the aircraft. Only yesterday I was in the crewroom and overheard a trainer having to take someone off line after a few months because he couldn't fly an approach and land. What is going on in this company?

In total agreement.

Some also show an inability to learn and improve. I find myself guarding the red button on every approach with the newbies. That is with an expectation of using it.

I am also finding they will report for duty while clearly unfit due colds and flu thus increasing the chances of infecting other crew members.

Instead of no tailwind/Config3 landings and x wind limits of a gentle breeze they might be restricted to gear up and "please could you get me the weather for......" Those limits could be relaxed if "operating with a trainer"

However on contemplation I now think more people should pay to fly in the hope that supply will soon outstrip demand and the market will adjust itself. If that means our" zero to hero" generation are cast out into financial purgatory after 6 months on the line and replaced by more "Jet time right hand seat lemmings" so be it.

[Wellington Bomber]

£10000 living costs are you having a laugh

I would say 18months at your current average UK salary is about £36000 take home pay whilst you are doing all your training before you wipe your feet on big shiny jet carpet

[Bealzebub]

Bealzebub, AdM, what is your interest in this stuff? Are you shareholders / managers in CTC or in EZY and profiting from every overprized training a cadet buys? Your constant touting of untruths are astonishing.

I can only speak for myself, but the interest is borne out of 15 years of direct involvement. I am neither a manager or shareholder in either company, and I do not profit in anything related to this subject. It is not an "untruth," in fact quite the opposite, hence the comments and observation.

There are several sponsorships available where a real contract awaits you. BA is only one of them.

Well, yes there are, but do you know who is charged with administering the sponsorship programme? CTC. Even so, with this and a couple of other cadet programmes, there is no guarantee of "a real contract" awaiting you. Nevertheless there are better terms applicable to certain other schemes also adminstered by CTC. The problem is, (and I say this again,) they haven't been around for the last few years, when EZY has indeed been pretty much the only game in town.

BA have dipped their toe back into the cadet programme, and Monarch have taken around 30 cadets over the last 12 months, so things are improving a little, but despite this EZY has still far and away been the largest cadet destination from this source.

Then there is still the military option where you get great and intensive training.

Yes, but few wannabes use it as a civil apprenticeship, and even if that were not the case, the requirements, standards, and demands of a military career are far removed from the realistic elements of this particular discussion.

From CPT's I would expect more responsible action, to paint an honest picture about what is going on out there, not to sell some sort of scam as the only game in town.

Well, you might, but that would ignore the reality of the situation. What is being said here is an honest appraisal of the situation. The fact you don't like it isn't salient to the observation.

I am selling nothing, however if my son or daughter insisted on a career in this industry in todays market, this is the route I would honestly advise them to take.

£10000 living costs are you having a laugh

I would say 18months at your current average UK salary is about £36000 take home pay whilst you are doing all your training before you wipe your feet on big shiny jet carpet

No, that would be about right. Obviously it is a very subjective figure, but for a student living frugally that £10,000 would be a reasonable ballpark number. That is what recently graduated cadets tell me. I am not sure what you are alluding to, since these cadets are not earning an "average UK salary" whilst they complete a full time course of training, much of it overseas.

Much respect for your views but would be sensible of you to identify your exact role with regards to CTC if any.

Thank you, but I don't have a role with them.

[Wellington Bomber]

Not all cadets go straight from school/college, many have to leave paid work.

This is where the £36000 lost wages comes into it, whilst going back to college.

so you have upto £100000 training costs plus extra depending on type rating and living costs, and at the same time £36000 less income over 18mths due to no job.

Obviously the aforementioned £100000 is not interest fee, what would the final payback be give or take???? anybody

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Studi - the exam question is how does someone become an airline pilot? To describe CTC as a scam is just nonsense. You say it is not the only game in town - where else then can you go to get that first airline job these days? Also to suggest that all you get out of it is a paid by the hour job is not true. I do not like the current employment practices of easyJet any more than you do, but there is nonetheless a clear path from 200 hour cadet to captain on a 5/3/5/4 contract. The key thing is that many of these guys have gone onto a great future, whether with us or with other large carriers - it is not all bad.

Robert G Mugabe - we have all once been 200 hour pilots, and I was fortunate at that stage in my career to have supportive captains who understood the deal. My personal obvservation is that large numbers of CTC guys and gals are great people, but just lack experience. You cannot buy experience - you just have to get it. Part of the process is that if an individual needs more support to maintain the required standard, they will get it. That means that, on occasion, someone may be taken off the line to undergo further training. That does not mean the system has failed - it means the training system checks and balances are in place and working correctly. We have a number of Captains who, for reasons primarily related to their own insecurities, have elected to make life incredibly difficult for our newest pilots and make them feel small in order to make them feel better about themselves. I frankly have very little tolerance for that attitude, and always try to be supporting to a new pilot finding their way in the world. Clearly we have a minimum standard that must be maintained, but within that limitation we can go to great lengths to assist our colleagues.

[Robert G Mugabe]

Robert G Mugabe - we have all once been 200 hour pilots, and I was fortunate at that stage in my career to have supportive captains who understood the deal. My personal obvservation is that large numbers of CTC guys and gals are great people, but just lack experience. You cannot buy experience - you just have to get it

No problem however CTC and the like used to have a selection process in order to stream the candidates. They would then accept for training those they believed would reach a good standard on line.

As a generalisation and an observation the latest batches of the product are not as good as they used to be. So either the training provided by CTC is not as good or the raw material is inferior.

Either way those paying for the training should ensure they have the aptitude for it or that they receive value for their money.

One could even say that easyJet is happy to resource its expansion by using this inferior product as it is cheaper to retrain/recheck provide recency checks than it is to recruit,train and employ their own product.

Part of the process is that if an individual needs more support to maintain the required standard, they will get it. That means that, on occasion, someone may be taken off the line to undergo further training

I would also suggest if the problems are related to the flying of and landing from a basic AP coupled ILS approach the product is very poor and should not have passed line training in the first place.

In my view if our company SOP's severely restrict new pilots from operating the aircraft in accordance with FCOM/FCTM and our unrestricted SOP's there is a recognition that the new cadet is less able than his/her predecessor.

That does not mean the system has failed - it means the training system checks and balances are in place and working correctly.

Thank god. Our minimum standard has got lower in my humble opinion. One does hear that our training department is constantly battling other company departments in order to restrict the erosion of pilot quality and standards.

We have a number of Captains who, for reasons primarily related to their own insecurities, have elected to make life incredibly difficult for our newest pilots and make them feel small in order to make them feel better about themselves

Well if those Captains are known to the training department they should be taken off line to undergo further training themselves.

Summary. For those about to pay to fly. Ensure you have the aptitude for it and ensure you receive value for money when training. Good luck.

[no sponsor]

There seems to be posters with quick access to facts and figures about CTC here, who quite obviously have some closer tie to CTC than they are letting on.

CTC is without doubt largely responsible for the demise of the professional career here in the UK. Having done a TR at CTC, I can honestly say their training was second rate. The place is populated by old geezers topping up their large final salary pensions, or rather suspect operators.

Anyway, I am pleased to hear the cadet standard is getting crap, since it means they will fail selection everywhere else. How come every Ezy F/O has their sights set on BA? With only 250 places available for DEPs, an awful lot are going to be disappointed in the coming years.

[lederhosen]

No Sponsor for a guy who says he is a a BA pilot, you do not seem to have been done any lasting harm by your CTC foray. I gather from the tone of your post that you do not like them. Honest feedback is helpful. However Schadenfreude about others trying to make a go of things and indeed follow in your footsteps is another matter.

[Bealzebub]

The place is populated by old geezers topping up their large final salary pensions, or rather suspect operators.

By that, I assume you really mean, very experienced captains with a long and obviously succesful career behind them with a variety of legacy airlines?

Anyway, I am pleased to hear the cadet standard is getting crap, since it means they will fail selection everywhere else.

That doesn't appear to be what is happening. In fact more seem to be getting selected by a variety of established and new operators including easyjet, British airways, Monarch, DHL, Cathay Pacific and Qatar airways.

How come every Ezy F/O has their sights set on BA? With only 250 places available for DEPs, an awful lot are going to be disappointed in the coming years.

yes, possibly. Presumably thus depriving them of a decent pension and the chance to top it up with a training position at CTC and other fine training establishments?

[no sponsor]

There is nothing "Schadenfreude" about my observation. Rather, it is obvious that if someone does not have the aptitude (as others are observing who fly for EZY as posted above), then it is those training organizations who are at fault by taking someones money when they know better.

Thanks for the updates of employment success for CTC cadets Bealzebub.

[Bealzebub]

I do.

I've flown with their cadets for the last 15 years. I have spent thousands of hours in the company of cadets and experienced pilots trained from this source. I've been line checked and OPC/LPC checked by CTC trained pilots. I have spoken to company management pilots trained by CTC. I have visited their training establishments in Southampton, Bournemouth and Hamilton, and spoken with cadets going through training. I've spoken with Instructors in the UK and in New Zealand. To be fair, I think I have done some homework, and to be honest as a twenty thousand hour plus pilot, it is not very likely that I will need to avail myself of their services in the very near future. However I haven't completely dismissed the idea that no sponsor suggested in an earlier post, when he said:

The place is populated by old geezers topping up their large final salary pensions.

It sounds a much better prospect than either Dignitas, or a council run care home!

Beyond that, I don't work for them or draw any other benefit. However if you think I should, then please send them an email with that suggestion and I promise that I will paste a copy of the first cheque that arrives on the doormat.

[angelorange]

New EZY/RYR Cadet scheme?

Is Tesco's JSA + expenses fairer than P2F?

"The advert, posted on the Jobcentre Plus website, said Tesco was looking for a permanent night shift worker in a store in East Anglia, paying just expenses and Jobseekers' Allowance.
Furious Twit ER followers riled the advert on the social networking site, questioning how it was possible for a major supermarket to get away with hiring someone in return for no full-time wage. Jobseekers' Allowance is currently paid at just £53.45 per week for under 25s, or £67.50 for older staff"

Telegraph uk



Tesco: JSA Plus Expenses Job Ad Was 'IT Mistake'

Tesco in row over advert for unpaid workers as it claims 'expenses plus benefits' offer was a mistake | Mail Online