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EZY Cadet Contracts

Old 31st Jan 2012, 22:27
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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1. All the more reason not to do it.

2. Again, if this is the case, don't train.

3. I'm not getting that one.

Agree with your bottom statement.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 22:37
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My point being that someone who has access to £100K plus without being landed with the burden of having to pay it back will have limited concern about the consequences of a recession. They will have limited concern about the contract on offer at their LCC of choice. They will however be able to tell you what's so great about a 737NG or who provides Type Rating training for Easyjet.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 23:34
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I reckon its quite easy to judge flexicrew for choosing to accept a contract like that but one should think of the personal situation as well.

There probably are enough examples of people fresh out of training who can't wait to sign the contract without any thought about the t's & c's which is pretty alarming. But when I look at my personal situation for example the story is completely different. With me are probably hundreds of people who were/are in the same situation.

Started training in 2007 when everything was still going well economy wise. Then when the sh*t started to hit the fan a couple of months into training there was no way back. After completion of my training I was very reluctant to even look at schemes like flexi. Two IR renewals later and the situation was a lot different I can assure you!

I discussed the flexi contract a lot of the people I trained with and who signed the flexi contract long before I did. This way I knew what I could expect.

When I got the opportunity it didn't take long before I wanted to take the gamble. In the back of my head there's always the thought that it's not the way it should be but I haven't regretted my choice so far.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 23:56
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In the back of my head there's always the thought that it's not the way it should be but I haven't regretted my choice so far.
Don't give it another thought - there are people here who will tell you that green is actually red...after a while you begin doubting yourself
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 01:35
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yippy ki yay
Don't give it another thought - there are people here who will tell you that green is actually red...after a while you begin doubting yourself
& this is exactly the type of blinkered approach which got the industry in the world of **** it is in today.

Last edited by Coffin Corner; 23rd Feb 2012 at 09:17.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 07:02
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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At the risk of being controversial...

Anyone judging the cadets` "blinkered approach" for taking up the "offer": Had the opportunity for a "fast track" into the RHS of a Jet, including the prospect of emplyoment (never mind the conditions attached) been there when you started your flying training, would you have gone for it?

Think hard. Any answer to that is actually useless because it's hypothetical as is the question. Just trying to get people to think and to put some perspective into the discussion. Schemes like that will always attract too many people (as will schemes that have you being wasted working FRV over the summer for a bit more money... sound familiar?) Being given this chance at the right time in their lives, I believe many of the ones that now are so vocal against the whole thing might have actually jumped on as well...

Still, that doesn't make it right...
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 08:10
  #47 (permalink)  
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I view the youngsters who accept these contracts as poor deluded victims of " snake oil salesmen". They are naive prey to the likes of CTC.

Conversely I also have no respect for these "victims". They have demonstrated such poor judgement by throwing huge sums of money in the quest for instant gratification.

They are the " new generation ". Products of their time where to buy now and pay later is a concept they are comfortable with. Hell the British Government has been doing it for 15+ years.

However here is the rub. They will have to adjust their expectations when they have to pay it all back. I quite enjoy watching the scales fall from these bright eyed,indoctrinated, generally arrogant fledglings' eyes once they are out of the training world and exposed to "real" life.

As for the consequences. If these people have no self respect in the first place why should they expect me to hold them with any regard.

The difference between being naive and stupid is small.
 
Old 1st Feb 2012, 08:20
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I’m still at a loss as to why this is such a bad deal.

At potentially the age of 20, you’re getting a starting salary that works out around £35k gross or £1,800 net after loan repayments.

You’re flying one of the best & safest bits of kit around doing a job that you love, with a well respected airline (from a training and SOPs perspective at least).
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 08:25
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OK, well I didn't really mean what I wrote (to an extent) - I just got fed up with reading the same old stuff here so decided to be an ignorant !!

I agree with Callsign Kilo in that after going through an FTO the ONLY options that are presented to you are these SSTR schemes with questionable contracts. They really do sell you the fact that if you aren't prepared to do a SSTR and don't get into one of these schemes you're screwed.

I'm sure its pretty easy to look down at the new cadets joining these schemes and wave your finger at them, saying they're crazy, destroying the industry etc.. saying how they should've done it the proper way by going onto TP first but from I what I came across during my job hunt these were the best contracts out there....and thats saying something!

I'm sure coffin corner would say that if that was the best out there then you shouldn't take it - but lets be serious are you going to turn down a contract which seems to be the best you are going to get at your level? am I really going to be that stubborn and refuse to sign it in the hope that maybe in 10 years time it might be a bit better? I'm not denying that these contracts are rubbish, I'm just saying that once you've qualified and those are the best offers available you really do have to take it (IMO).

As the previous poster said, I guess you could not train in the first place but how many people look at potential contracts in detail before they start training to do something? once you're trained up its too late.

Yes you are probably right, a lot of these people will be paying for the decisions that they make now at a later stage. Pot-less in some back of beyond location, no meaningful social or family life with complete destain for the industry that they work in.
Maybe this applies to you guys too?
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 08:31
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Bealzy

Yes, but an airline pilots job is not a necessity unless perhaps you already are one. It is an expensive vocation.
Following the magenta line is a vocation is it?

What a sense of humour you have!! Don't tease the littluns, it's cruel.

Vocation it ain't.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 08:37
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some would argue its harder and more academically challenging to become a pilot than it would be a lawyer or a doctor. certainly wouldnt brand the position with the likes of an ambulance driver or a Samritans counciler of which are vocations
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 09:20
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Learjet,

from personal experience, it is much much much harder to become a qualified doctor or lawyer than a pilot. There is just no comparison. If you think otherwise you are fooling yourself.

As regards to the Flexi-Crew issue:
Anyone who now signs one of those contracts is just plain stupid. Chasing a "dream" is simply not a justification.

If you can come up with that kind of money then use it to become something sensible, like a lawyer or doctor.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 09:46
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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FANS you're an idiot. Did you read my post? It's nowhere near £1800 after loan repayments. I know of only one guy who got into training at 18 and even he didn't start flying for easyjet until 22. It took 4 years to get from start of training to RHS. So none of this £35k after loan at age 20. Added to that there is NO GUARANTEE you will be flying. Train as a doctor or a lawyer and there will be a job out there for you. Train as a pilot and you MAY work 8 months then get laid off again. All with a debt of £100k. Bloody marvellous. You are the reason courses like this exist and you are the reason they will continue. Open your eyes and smell the coffee.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 09:55
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Yip

I can understand people taking the contracts if they had already started the process before the downturn, but for those who haven't yet, and didn't, I think they have been/would be mental. What I don't get is if you are about to invest £100,000 then why the hell are they not researching everything? I don't buy the "oh the flight school sold it to me" brigade. £100k is a serious amount of cash and I for one would want to be armed with all the facts before ploughing any kind of cash into flight training.
A sad indictment of the way it has gone is that these have been the only contracts on offer for a long while and yet the flight schools were full, people queuing up to throw their cash at them. I personally don't believe that this is down to the schools' selling tactics, I think it is down to the individuals who will stop at nothing to sit in the rhs of an airliner and will do "whatever it takes, at whatever the cost", this is the real driving force behind it and the schools and airlines (Easyjet) are coining it in and laughing their tits off. I thought the credit crunch would stop the banks lending money to all these individuals but they are finding the cash, I don't get that either.
Where does it end though? I am not sure it will, not now. It really pains me when I am flying around and I hear all the foreign pilots flying for Ryanair & EasyJet. The cadets with cash are coming from the continent and are keeping the schools full over here too, the free labour laws are unfortunately a one way gravy train, but that's a different discussion for another day.
You could say I am slightly bitter about it all, (I'm not though, I am happy to be employed) I am an experienced pilot (if u call 4,000hrs experienced) stuck on a "modern" turbo prop with nowhere to go. The natural step up for the likes of myself is to go to Easyjet, Monarch, Thomas Cook etc, but we can't go anywhere. The only way to get on in this industry now is to have absolutely no experience. When & where will it end? I'm not sure it will.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 10:31
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I'm on a FlexiCrew contract with EasyJet, starting at the beginning of 2010 as one of the first batch of contractors from Parc. Ultimately, it's worked out pretty well - I love my job; work with great people; fly brand new aeroplanes and get paid pretty well for the privilege.

I've flown 650 hours in the last 12 months and grossed ~£50,000. This pay will increase by 20% in a little over a month when I hit 1500 factored hours. It's not hard to be free of debt in under two years if you're careful with money - ie, not taking every month's pay and squandering it.

That's not to say that it's all sunshine and daisies. There's a continued uncertainty over employment prospects and the proposed new entrant contract is laughable - it's basically EasyJet moving FlexiCrew in-house and cutting the agencies out of the picture.

There already exist Second and First Officer new entrant contracts, agreed two years ago, which no FlexiCrew pilot has ever seen. It's a pay-cut for those of us with Parc, many more years on FRV, and no loyalty pay. Leave is another catastrophe with some people averaging one week a year. EasyJet blames Parc; Parc blame EasyJet. It pisses me off on a massive scale.

The lack of rostering protection is another issue. So is the problem of "us and them" in the workforce, which to be fair I've never experienced but isn't unheard of. Just look at this thread. FRV would work if we got a little control over our days off, but it seems too much to ask. I tried to get a single day off with 12 month's notice which took way too much effort to make it worthwhile.

WWW - I agree with you in many respects on your views of FlexiCrew, I really do. None of us expects you to vote for any deal to get better conditions for us (though I suspect the crap deal for FlexiCrew is not going to be the defining factor of the new pay deal) but I have to ask if you're so vehemently opposed to it, why you and BALPA allowed it to happen in the first place?

Last edited by Fursty Ferret; 1st Feb 2012 at 20:06.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 10:56
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As usual on PPrune, you’re an idiot for disagreeing with someone!

I know of a chap working at EZY at age 20 – but the point about my age comment is that this is a job you can get straight into without strong academic qualifications &/or uni.

You’re right there’s no guarantee of a job – the same is very true for the many lawyers out there with law degrees plus LPC doing paralegal work. At today’s uni fee levels, they’ll have spent a lot of money with even less guarantees than CTC.

We can go on comparing pilot to other jobs but you’re getting mixed up with the numbers - and deducting living expenses which I am afraid to tell you have to be paid in any job you do. The £35k is before loan and a guideline for the gross pay – I think it’s even been issued as part of the OAA MPL scheme now (but someone else can confirm).

Yes you’ve got ~ £100k debt, but everyone knew that before they even turned up at CTC’s/OAA/FTEs open day. With CTC, you’ve got a job flying a 320 that you get paid for in line with market rates for someone with very little experience. What more could you possibly expect when there are many experienced TPs more qualified for your job?
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 11:45
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The cadets have a cavalier attitude towards £100,000 because its not their money - its the equity in 'mummy & daddy's' house...
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 12:47
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FANS - go to listentotaxman.com stick in 35k and see what you get. I make it 2180 a month. Minus your £1150 a month which is what I pay gives you £1000, thats without a student loan repayment. Nowhere near £1800 as you said. Therefore I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm proving you wrong. Take it from someone who is in the system. Don't just make stuff up from what someone told you. And don't patronise my "getting my numbers mixed up," because I haven't and I don't. I spend hours working out how much I'm going to get paid and putting it into spreadsheets so I can budget - go back to page 1 and you can see. You've just made yourself look stupid.

University fees are completely different to a SECURED LOAN on your parents house. You don't pay any of it back until you earn over the threshold. Try persuading HSBC that you can't afford it this month because easyJet only gave you 25 hours as happened before christmas.

I have no idea how much the repayments are on 100k, but I imagine they are a lot higher than mine are after I borrowed 65k which was unsecured and when cadets were going straight into the RHS on a permanent contract.

Looking at your other posts from before christmas you were trying to put people off applying to CTC and OAA. Two-faced?
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 15:41
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Surprisingly, there has been no mention on this thread of the six Easyjet First Officers that went bankrupt last year...
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 21:07
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What I cannot understand is the market place for jobs in airlines is crammed full, people with the I will do anything attitude.

Surely the airlines must know this, and what would stop them lowering salarys to much lower amounts i.e 18,000 for FO and 30,000 for a captain???

if demand is so high why dont they take advantage of this?

Sure it would but a lot of people off training to become pilots but it may even out the job to pilot ratio.

I had a restaurant in the UK before comming to OZ, when I did my interviews I had a medium responce, but if I had applications comming out my arse and people throwing money at training programs it would put me in a position to say "hold on a second demand is high Im going to knock the salary down here.

on the other hand if you are finding it hard to employ people demand would be low, so you would need to increase the salary to attract candidates.

I am in no way supportive of low salarys, but if your in buisness and you have a job market like the airlines why dont they cash in?
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