Failures at Korean Air - Conspiracies or poor candidates?

[Ricky Billy Pearse]

Was discussing with fellow pilots about the pitfalls of contract flying in the Orient. Up came the topic of many failures during pre-employment checks and during initial line training. There were also reports of subsequent failures even after successful line training during the profiency sim checks and annual route checks. I wonder if insiders can give plausible reasons; are the failures mainly due to conspiracies between the local Korean checkers and collusion with the Korean Civil Aviation Board or due to the poor abilities of recent candidates due to the fact that they are scraping the bottom of the barrel?

I heard that they do have expat training captains and checkers as well as expat flight operations auditors; I am sure they can help put a stop to all the conspiratorial schemes of the local Korean checkers to fail foreigners.

What are the rewards for foreign trainers, is there a substantial pay or allowance for training?

How do KAL choose their foreign trainers?

How do the recruitment agencies factor in the selection of trainers?

What qualifications does KAL need for the expat trainers? Past training capacity certainly would play a big role, right?

Appreciate your insights, KAL ppruners!

[Luddite aviator]

Korean culture

KAL have a big problem with recruting in the fact that any Korean national is very attuned to loosing face,they feel that if someone that they have selected on a sim check fails later down the line it will reflect badly on them.

Hence some very good people get the chop at sim assessment as it is far safer from a Korean career point of view to fail someone than pass them.

[Prince Rupert]

Of late, I have heard that KAL is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. As such they do have a lot of dodgy candidates with dubious hours and claimed experience. Some passed through the hoops with relative ease but quite a number got caught.

I left some time ago, so I do not know the current situation. During my time there, there were 2 Canuck trainers, 4 Malysians on T7. On the A330, there were also a few Canucks, a Thai and 2 Iranians appointed as trainers. There are a few expat trainers on the B737 too. On the T7, the 2 Canuck trainers failed their " checker rides " by the KCASA checker for some silly reasons.

All told, it is actually a lousy job with an additional USD800, but I wonder why all the expats were clamoring to be trainers and checkers. Despite their denials that they do not want to be trainers, almost all the expats secretly harbor ambitions to be instructors. I only know one, a Malysian, who flatly told the Training Business Bureau he had better things to do. When I checked out at the Flight Admin on the 7th floor of the OC building in Gimpo with my final clearance, I saw some kind of incredulous looks on the Korean chief trainers when this guy categorically told them that he did not want the job eventhough they had identified him for selection during a trainers meeting. He was pre-empting his selection just in case they roster him for checkers/instructors training as a " surprise fait accompli " where one cannot refuse without causing severe loss of face!

The expats at the audit department are toothless possums who write tons of useless reports. There was only one Aussie maverick who did a good job but sadly, he was let go from audit after ruffling some feathers; his contract was almost not renewed.

No, the foreign trainers cannot help much. At best they just give KAL some semblance of " fair hiring " but there is certainly zero equal opportunity.

[Vrille]

What an awful place to work in....

[Bwanah Kumbaya]

Only US$800 for an instructor's position...you are kidding right? Another piece of disinformation to throw off other competing candidates?

I heard many good things about KAL...free meal tickets, 1st class dead heading, 4 round trip free tickets etc. Stop your disinformation!

[Chuck Canuck]

Prince has got it right Bwanah. The instructor's allowance is only US$ 800 during the time I was there. The checkers got about $100 more. The audit guys got about $1500. 1st class dead heading only if you are dead heading from/to ICN for on rostered duty, but commuting to/from home base. Free meal coupons...that's cheap peasant stuff!

[billabongbill]

From what I heard from former colleagues still holed up near the DMZ, most of the current applicants are NTR guys who are taking a stab at big time airline flying. Inevitably many have cooked hours and dubious credentials. The type rated guys will definitely go for the softer targets like Turkish, Chinese carriers and Scoot where the flying is generally non-stressful and friendlier faces abound. One long time KAL expat told me years ago that going for a flight with other 3 Korean pilots was like going for a funeral, dour faces and general unfriendliness. There were exceptions, of course, but unless you are a natural brown noser, toadie or a lamb, it was definitely a very unpleasant environment to work in. Your psychological and mental state will suffer insiduously without you knowing as you will be kidding yourselves putting on a smiling face all the time hoping that you had not offended anyone with your candid remarks.

The only positive is the flexible commute; however with increasing number of expats, there will be some smart asses who endeavour to abuse the system which will definitely lead to a curtailing of the flexible commuting arrangements. As it is, the abuse of the home commute privileges had led to the loss of 1st class seats for from/to homebase commute. With the increase in number of claims for family travel for " step children ", etc you will likely see reduction in free tickets given.

As for free meal coupons, Chuck has it nailed nicely as " peasant " stuff which certainly bring the dignity of expat pilots into question as some make a bee line for the coupon dispenser close to meal times much to the disgust of the locals.

[Ace Springbok]

There were token numbers of expat trainers and checkers. A few on each fleet. Some expat chaeckers can be arseholes too....sadly, most checkers and auditors had not much previous training experience in KAL and generally suffer from the " small man " syndrome. I remember one Aussie checker on the B777 who was such an arsehole...poor system knowledge and poor experience but an ego the size of 2 football fields. Heavenly intervention prevented him from causing further pain. Hopefully his close shave with big C mellowed him into decency.

I think the guy who rejected instructorship was a Chinese guy, not Malay. If I am not mistaken, he resigned earlier after they screwed him over the fuel leak incident.

[Squirrrel]

Training Cost

Does anyone here know what happens with the training cost if you are let go during the first 12 months after training, or during training even? For whatever the reason might be... money that you would have to pay back if you resigned yourself during this time...

[woodyspooney]

Ace, that chap is a Chinese malay. He was a former LCP who resigned from instructorship quite sometime ago. If I remember right he resigned before the fuel leak incident.

I heard Lenny was a toughie and sometimes way off mark with his understanding of T7 systems...however it's not very kind to connect his present suffering from the big C with any of his past indiscretions.

[B737NG]

15.000 USD

That is the sum you owe to KAL if you resign within the first year to reimburse the "training cost". Well you come either rated or you pay the type rating and then get hired NTR. Yes please explain me the 15.000 $. After one year rated you are free to go in 90 days, if you are in a hurry pay 5.000 USD and then you can go on the next day.

We had also Guy´s who left without a bill, just fail any checkride and then you "save" the bucks.... You might loose somewhere else.

[Rondo Alla Turca]

I heard Lenny was a toughie and sometimes way off mark with his understanding of T7 systems

He was a bushie in the highlands of PNG until he made it good in EVA, then scooted off to KAL. When he was appointed LCP in KAL, the ego ballooned and he made life difficult for those he thought he could use as a launch pad for bigger things. Well, typical story of someone hoisted well above their station.

[Samba Anaconda]

Heard from a reliable source up on the 7th floor of OC; the current bunch Malaysia LCP/LIPs have some issues too. One alfa alfa had FOQA exceedence quite a while ago, underwent sim retraining and then somehow brown nosed back( golf connection ) to training/check position, another had a FOQA exceedence in ORD, dropped as LCP then had a simple nose gear tire burst, declared emergency with air turnback to ICN ( dobbed by company because he should have continue to destination ) then miraculously reselected as LCP. Yet another rejected a takeoff because of his carelessness in selecting the wrong flap setting for intersection takeoff and yet selected as LIP. Not very convincing standards for training department In the audit department one guy failed to log in a multiple SEC computer problem and is now harassing others for not logging in simple faults.

[B737NG]

Could you please be more specific what you are looking for?.....

[Superpilot]

A word of warning to any Brits apply for positions with KAL. There is currently a taxation issue between the two countries which is preventing us from getting hired. So think twice before you fill the monstrously long application forms. Ask Rishworth the question explicitly before applying as they are not allowed to write this in the job ads.

[Toowoomba Taipan]

One alfa alfa had FOQA exceedence quite a while ago, underwent sim retraining and then somehow brown nosed back( golf connection ) to training/check position

That must be that brown fella who used to smoke a pipe trying to look very wise and smart...yep, he botched up a training flight and had to go for remedial sim training. How come he is still a trainer and checker now? When I was still there he was removed from the training and standards bureau...things in KAL must have gone backwards to the dogs after I left!

Generally the Malaysian trainers are very competent and proficient, this one being the exception.

The KAL trainer's pay is certainly very low; I wonder why the audit guys get more pay for the rubbish that they churn out.

[Chuck Canuck]

The KAL trainer's pay is certainly very low; I wonder why the audit guys get more pay for the rubbish that they churn out.

I think it has to do with the extra pay the Korean LCP gets vis-a-vis the Korean audit pilot. The Korean LCP continues to get paid for the flight hours accrued whereas the audit pilot do not get many long flights; most of the audit flights are on short flights where they cannot log the flight time and they spend a lot of time in the office writing reports. As such they get very few flight hours and in general the Korean pilots are paid according to their flight hours. So the $800 the Korean LCP gets plus their flight pay hours equal approximately $1500 the Korean audit pilot gets. So the foreign audit pilot also gets $1500 but the foreign LCP gets only the $800 but nothing more because his contract does not include flight time pay unless it is above 75 hours.