BA Pilots Ponder BMI Proposal
That is exactly the dilemma we face at the moment. If we vote Yes, then BMI is integrated in BA short haul, with all the problems that will entail. We (BA pilots) have been told we have to help finance it by reducing our T&C's.
Alternatively, we vote No and IAG buy BMI and set up BA Express with reduced T&C's and use it as a wedge to reduce BA's salary bill at LHR.
Alternatively, we vote No and IAG buy BMI and set up BA Express with reduced T&C's and use it as a wedge to reduce BA's salary bill at LHR.
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So what will happen with bmi then?
Hi am all new to P Prune so forgive me if am asking the wrong question or the wrong question at this moment in time?BUT having an avid interest in all the pilots forums re TUPE, BALPA, etc, etc, what about the laymen within bmi who currently operate at EMA? Some from the Engineering site and more from their HQ in Donington Hall? And not being a Pilot, our interest is of a different nature. So what will the Walsher do? Will he sell the Hall and turn it into the BA Spa complete with heli pad or will he keep it on as some other regional BA HQ? What about the loss making bmibaby and regional?
No one knows or no one is bothered . . . . it is not all about pilots and crew you know. We have voices too. However, I think the majority are resigned to the fact that LHR will rule and if you want to go to LHR, you go assuming there is a position there for you and if not, it is bye byeeeeee! Thank you for your time ladies and gents and be interested in any posts to a novice on p prune.
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I love this. No proof and this is not how we at bmi understand it and by we I'm not just talking about pilots, I'm talking about the top level management, who really and truly have no idea of what plans IAG have for the company.
So the fact you lot are saying it's a certainty is making me remember how much utter rubbish is spouted as fact on this site.
Show exactly where you are getting your info from and then I might take it seriously, until then, it's just assumption and conjecture with no fact to back it up.
So the fact you lot are saying it's a certainty is making me remember how much utter rubbish is spouted as fact on this site.
Show exactly where you are getting your info from and then I might take it seriously, until then, it's just assumption and conjecture with no fact to back it up.
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Extract from our Chief Pilot
"The nub of the choice you face is a decision about maintaining control of your future. In the
coming weeks you will be given the opportunity to vote collectively on these proposals.
They represent hard changes to your agreements and you will be voting to accept the
package as a whole. If you believe these changes represent a fair and proportionate
response to making our business competitive, secure in the knowledge that we will have
significantly more capacity to grow our business, you should vote yes. If you do not accept
the case for change and choose to vote no, the shorthaul competitive challenge will remain
and both IAG and British Airways have made clear that under such circumstances, the
conditions would not be met for IAG to approve the merger of the bmi business into British
Airways. While this scenario would avoid accepting the change proposals, it would come at
a significant cost in terms of denying British Airways pilots the confidence of owning their
own growth within a career structure they recognize and benefit from"
Extract from BALPA
Will a YES vote guarantee integration of BMI into BA Mainline?
Should IAG go ahead with the purchase, after regulatory approval, we have a very clear
undertaking from BA CEO Keith Williams that a vote in favour of this package will ensure
integration into. BA Pilots are the only specific work group being consulted on the changes. All other directorates in BA have accepted that they will either meet the cost targets IAG has
approved as part of a proposed integration, or they will lose out on the new BMI work. The
company has indicated to us that all ground handling and engineering functions could be
carried out by third party contract as necessary. BMI cabin crew may or may not be integrated
into Mixed Fleet, but at any rate unit costs will not be permitted to rise above BMI levels.
"The nub of the choice you face is a decision about maintaining control of your future. In the
coming weeks you will be given the opportunity to vote collectively on these proposals.
They represent hard changes to your agreements and you will be voting to accept the
package as a whole. If you believe these changes represent a fair and proportionate
response to making our business competitive, secure in the knowledge that we will have
significantly more capacity to grow our business, you should vote yes. If you do not accept
the case for change and choose to vote no, the shorthaul competitive challenge will remain
and both IAG and British Airways have made clear that under such circumstances, the
conditions would not be met for IAG to approve the merger of the bmi business into British
Airways. While this scenario would avoid accepting the change proposals, it would come at
a significant cost in terms of denying British Airways pilots the confidence of owning their
own growth within a career structure they recognize and benefit from"
Extract from BALPA
Will a YES vote guarantee integration of BMI into BA Mainline?
Should IAG go ahead with the purchase, after regulatory approval, we have a very clear
undertaking from BA CEO Keith Williams that a vote in favour of this package will ensure
integration into. BA Pilots are the only specific work group being consulted on the changes. All other directorates in BA have accepted that they will either meet the cost targets IAG has
approved as part of a proposed integration, or they will lose out on the new BMI work. The
company has indicated to us that all ground handling and engineering functions could be
carried out by third party contract as necessary. BMI cabin crew may or may not be integrated
into Mixed Fleet, but at any rate unit costs will not be permitted to rise above BMI levels.
Say again slowly..... With respect, I would suggest that you get onto your Balpa company council and management and start demanding some answers. Your future is going to be decided one way or another by a Yes or No vote by the BA pilots in 2 weeks.
At the moment it would seem to be a forgone conclusion that you will be part of BA. (my opinion only)
If I were you, I'd want to know exactly what that is going to mean for me and my future career in BMI/BA.
At the moment it would seem to be a forgone conclusion that you will be part of BA. (my opinion only)
If I were you, I'd want to know exactly what that is going to mean for me and my future career in BMI/BA.
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I think I can fairly safely say that I probably know more about what's going on than our BALPA CC do...
Unfortunately!
Eventually, I do believe that we'll end up as part of BA. However, at this moment in time that is not certain and there's a lot of rumour and conjecture flying about on here that doesn't tally with what I know to be fact at this point in time.
I cannot go into any more detail than that. I could, but I won't as I'm not authorised to do so.
Unfortunately!
Eventually, I do believe that we'll end up as part of BA. However, at this moment in time that is not certain and there's a lot of rumour and conjecture flying about on here that doesn't tally with what I know to be fact at this point in time.
I cannot go into any more detail than that. I could, but I won't as I'm not authorised to do so.
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Say Again S l o w l y,
Is there anything that you can say that would be pertinent to the BA pilots' vote?
Until the results of that vote are known, nothing else can be predicted with any certainty. That said Shaka Zulu's copies of quotes from both BA and the BACC are accurate. Does anything you know contradict them?
There has also been a lot of speculation about how the integration, should it come about, be dealt with. It seems sometimes that the assumption is that it will be a scrap between the BACC and the BMICC. I mention this because sometimes it seems that it has been forgotten that ultimately BA/IAG are in charge. Maybe it's just me.
On that subject, in the Flt Ops directors letter he points out that, integrate or not, there will still be pressure on Short Haul costs. I suspect BA would be looking for concessions from SH, even if BMI pilots were not integrated.
Touching on that, there would appear to be an amount of disgruntlement on the BA recruitment thread about the introduction of the 34 pay points. I can completely understand people being upset by that, but the whole subject of "incremental drift" is one that BA pilots will have heard for some time as nearly every manager mentions that something has to be done about it at any given opportunity. I suspect that they have been biding their time and fell over themselves to attach it to this vote. After the Openskies affair it was only too obvious that BA pilots were keen to keep as many people flying BA aeroplanes on the same seniority list as possible. Even if the vote is "no" to integration, PP34 will not go away.
To the BMI chaps, if it were me, I would also expect to be wearing a BA uniform sooner rather than later, but speculating on where you might be in the grand order of things may be a little premature. Lets wait and see where we are in a couple of weeks time. You guys seem to have been messed around, had hopes built up, sacrificed things only to be disappointed time and again. I hope that this will be better, but I think we should await the outcome of the vote first and then let our CCs get together. It's been said already, but the BACC are a very decent bunch of chaps.
Is there anything that you can say that would be pertinent to the BA pilots' vote?
Until the results of that vote are known, nothing else can be predicted with any certainty. That said Shaka Zulu's copies of quotes from both BA and the BACC are accurate. Does anything you know contradict them?
There has also been a lot of speculation about how the integration, should it come about, be dealt with. It seems sometimes that the assumption is that it will be a scrap between the BACC and the BMICC. I mention this because sometimes it seems that it has been forgotten that ultimately BA/IAG are in charge. Maybe it's just me.
On that subject, in the Flt Ops directors letter he points out that, integrate or not, there will still be pressure on Short Haul costs. I suspect BA would be looking for concessions from SH, even if BMI pilots were not integrated.
Touching on that, there would appear to be an amount of disgruntlement on the BA recruitment thread about the introduction of the 34 pay points. I can completely understand people being upset by that, but the whole subject of "incremental drift" is one that BA pilots will have heard for some time as nearly every manager mentions that something has to be done about it at any given opportunity. I suspect that they have been biding their time and fell over themselves to attach it to this vote. After the Openskies affair it was only too obvious that BA pilots were keen to keep as many people flying BA aeroplanes on the same seniority list as possible. Even if the vote is "no" to integration, PP34 will not go away.
To the BMI chaps, if it were me, I would also expect to be wearing a BA uniform sooner rather than later, but speculating on where you might be in the grand order of things may be a little premature. Lets wait and see where we are in a couple of weeks time. You guys seem to have been messed around, had hopes built up, sacrificed things only to be disappointed time and again. I hope that this will be better, but I think we should await the outcome of the vote first and then let our CCs get together. It's been said already, but the BACC are a very decent bunch of chaps.
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I think I can fairly safely say that I probably know more about what's going on than our BALPA CC do...
However, at this moment in time that is not certain and there's a lot of rumour and conjecture flying about on here that doesn't tally with what I know to be fact at this point in time.
Speculatively it looks like integration, at which point the 90 day consultation for TUPE can begin. Not before! Hence any 'fact' based upon TUPE regulations is automatically speculation and rumour.
If the BA Pilots think BMI isn't worth 2 days holidays and a productivity increase then BMI continues on its merry, loss making, way. No TUPE, no integration , nothing. Be sure as eggs are eggs though that the T's & C's within BMI would be slashed. Say 'no' and the slots get leased until IAG need them and BMI goes under.
As much as anyone moans about integration it seems to be the lesser of two evils at the moment.
All rumour and conjecture of course as I, although I keep myself very well informed, cannot, for certain, forsee the outcome of the ballot or the TUPE discussion if relevant.
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Look. I'm not getting into an argument about this. I have the current fleet list on my desk and it covers all of this and a whole lot more.
There are numerous things wrong with that list you've put up.
There are numerous things wrong with that list you've put up.
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Doesn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things how many Airbii you own, all that really matters to anyone in BMI (IMHO of course) is how the BA pilots compare two different shades of brown.
I think for anyone in BMI, much the same, all said & done, except your part in the decision Re your future, is probably a bit more passive.
I think for anyone in BMI, much the same, all said & done, except your part in the decision Re your future, is probably a bit more passive.
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Dawdler, in post #87 you refer to recent BASSA communications which are not in the spirit of the Settlement Agreement. I wholeheartedly agree that BASSA need to be more professional and sophisticated in their comms and I have fed this back to them as have others.
Unfortunately, after such a prolonged battle there are still many challenges ahead, not least the threat to the success of the Settlement Agreement caused by factions opposed to peace.
It may surprise you but I would not recommend you take a course of action that would lead to industrial dispute. It really is the nuclear option and the damaging fall out is unpleasant and long lasting.
I would not underestimate Willie Walsh, this ‘offer’ was not just pulled out of a Mixed Fleet hat. Consultants and lawyers will have spent time studying the options.
I also would not be over confident of a landslide ‘Yes’ vote, I may not have access to the BALPA forum but I do have access to Pilots in a social setting. Perhaps it’s my ‘militant’ aura that brings out the inner socialist in others but I am not hearing a lot of love for the ‘Yes’ vote. It may be the beer talking but I will be interested to see how the vote swings.
Finally, in the spirit of One Team I would like to assure you that having been passionate about our dispute, I am passionate about ensuring both sides abide by our Settlement Agreement. Lizanne Malone, the BASSA Chairman, had indicated she would step down from the role at this years BASSA elections. I wrote to her suggesting she stands again as I believe her new found collaborative relationship with the leadership Team is the steady hand on the tiller required to steer us through the stormy post dispute waters.
I do ask the Moderators indulgence in allowing me to share the reassuring news that after discussing it with her family, they agreed she had ‘unfinished business’ and she will be standing again. A relief to all who want to build on the foundations of peace laid so far.
The postings made by Dingbaticus are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.
Unfortunately, after such a prolonged battle there are still many challenges ahead, not least the threat to the success of the Settlement Agreement caused by factions opposed to peace.
It may surprise you but I would not recommend you take a course of action that would lead to industrial dispute. It really is the nuclear option and the damaging fall out is unpleasant and long lasting.
I would not underestimate Willie Walsh, this ‘offer’ was not just pulled out of a Mixed Fleet hat. Consultants and lawyers will have spent time studying the options.
I also would not be over confident of a landslide ‘Yes’ vote, I may not have access to the BALPA forum but I do have access to Pilots in a social setting. Perhaps it’s my ‘militant’ aura that brings out the inner socialist in others but I am not hearing a lot of love for the ‘Yes’ vote. It may be the beer talking but I will be interested to see how the vote swings.
Finally, in the spirit of One Team I would like to assure you that having been passionate about our dispute, I am passionate about ensuring both sides abide by our Settlement Agreement. Lizanne Malone, the BASSA Chairman, had indicated she would step down from the role at this years BASSA elections. I wrote to her suggesting she stands again as I believe her new found collaborative relationship with the leadership Team is the steady hand on the tiller required to steer us through the stormy post dispute waters.
I do ask the Moderators indulgence in allowing me to share the reassuring news that after discussing it with her family, they agreed she had ‘unfinished business’ and she will be standing again. A relief to all who want to build on the foundations of peace laid so far.
The postings made by Dingbaticus are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 14th Jan 2012 at 18:17.
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Right, that's my decision to never pay another penny for BASSA membership and "representation" confirmed.
My posts do not represent the views of my employer, they are no more than an expression of my desperation for adequate, accountable, and adult representation in my work place. Sadly it seems the dream will not come true and the nightmare will continue.
My posts do not represent the views of my employer, they are no more than an expression of my desperation for adequate, accountable, and adult representation in my work place. Sadly it seems the dream will not come true and the nightmare will continue.
Dingbaticus
It may surprise you but I would not recommend you take a course of action that would lead to industrial dispute.
I may not have access to the BALPA forum but I do have access to Pilots in a social setting.
?
Perhaps it’s my ‘militant’ aura that brings out the inner socialist in others but I am not hearing a lot of love for the ‘Yes’ vote.
.As an aside I wonder how many of the workforce at BA will find the "reassuring news" you refer to at all "reassuring" or a "relief"? I suppose that's an argument for our cabin crew colleagues and will no doubt be hotly debated on another part of Pprune ( Two years down the road I'm still banned from that particular forum.....I wear that sanction with pride.....
)
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As an aside I wonder how many of the workforce at BA will find the "reassuring news" you refer to at all "reassuring" or a "relief"? I suppose that's an argument for our cabin crew colleagues and will no doubt be hotly debated on another part of Pprune ( Two years down the road I'm still banned from that particular forum.....I wear that sanction with pride.....)
14th Jan 2012 11:36
14th Jan 2012 11:36
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I do ask the Moderators indulgence in allowing me to share the reassuring news that after discussing it with her family, they agreed she had ‘unfinished business’ and she will be standing again. A relief to all who want to build on the foundations of peace laid so far.
Perhaps any further discussion of this matter is better placed on the cabin crew forum.
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Lizanne Malone, the BASSA Chairman, had indicated she would step down from the role at this years BASSA elections. I wrote to her suggesting she stands again as I believe her new found collaborative relationship with the leadership Team is the steady hand on the tiller required to steer us through the stormy post dispute waters.
Tell me, does she get her tickets and accommodation paid by Bassa (she commutes from LA) AS RUMOUR HAS IT? Perhaps I should be a Bassa rep too.
"A steady hand" , an absolute classic.........................
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Fruitcake
I wouldn't believe too much dear old Dingbaticus says, she's quite a fantasist, known to have invented a captain boyfriend in the past. Amongst other things.
Looks like the 'usual suspects', having lost all right to any say at all in the possible merger because of their behaviour in the last few years are trying to influence things via this place. That's not been a bad thing because at least now the BMI pilots have hopefully got a tiny bit more insight into the mindset of certain people in BA.
Perhaps it's time for the pilots and BA and BMI to resume the debate?
Perhaps it's time for the pilots and BA and BMI to resume the debate?
Last edited by wiggy; 15th Jan 2012 at 09:11.