Dutch union VNV screwing Martinair pilots
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Dutch union VNV screwing Martinair pilots
Anybody in the know about how the pilots of Martinair apparently have been screwed by the KLM pilots union VNV? The story as told to me is that although it was a legal take over the Martinair pilots get zero seniority, so basically no career prospects, they still run the risk of being kicked out if there are too many pilots, all in exchange for a salary and pension upgrade.
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You have been wrong informed!
In short: The dutch ALPA (VNV) negotioted for a long time to get a good deal which was fair for both Martinair and KLM pilots. Both pilotgroups agreed (through the "ledenraad") and concluded that this is a fair deal. Almost everebody is happy now, however there will be always a few people who think they should have gotten a better deal.
In short: The dutch ALPA (VNV) negotioted for a long time to get a good deal which was fair for both Martinair and KLM pilots. Both pilotgroups agreed (through the "ledenraad") and concluded that this is a fair deal. Almost everebody is happy now, however there will be always a few people who think they should have gotten a better deal.
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Thanks Slam. But the person I met here in DXB for an Emirates interview told me that he would get 0 seniority while he was a TRI with 15+ years at Martinair. So what are the details?
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If the guy you met had so much seniority he can probably chose to stay at Martinair Cargo, and proceed with his Martinair career. Some less senior people (bottom of the list, i believe 67 men/women) can switch to KLM and start a career there. Indeed they get no seniority BUT there is no loss of salary, and they still have a job.
There have been extensive discussions in our labour union, and after long talks this plan was accepted by both pilot groups.
There have been extensive discussions in our labour union, and after long talks this plan was accepted by both pilot groups.
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To start of, the VNV is not the KLM pilots union, but the union representing all pilots in KLM, Martinair, Transavia, Arkefly etc. (and some other helicopter companies).
It has one board (dutch name bestuur) and for the main part 3 ledenraden (groups of representatives of the company divided into subblocks of the seniority list).
The board does all negotiations with all the companies, bit the individual ledenraden have the right to ammend, or vote out any deals made by the bestuur. So no one company pilot group can overrule the others (well there technically is a possibility, but that is very complex). On the outside it looks very strange, but it has served us very well in the last 80 years or so.
The deal which was made, was very complex and the result of over 1,5 years of negotiating between the VNV and Martinair/KLM. One of the main point which the union tried to hammer in to all parties concerned (KLM and Martinair pilot sides) was that the best deal was one where both parties gave about the same amount. There idea was to never have one pilot group have massive advantage over the other.
So what are the highlights of the deal:
- Martinair stops being a pax operator and focusses only on cargo
- Martinair can not recruite any more pilots
- KLM loses all full cargo aircraft to martinair
- All martinair pilots will become part of the KLM pilot pension fund (2d best pension fund in the Netherlands)
- 67 FTE martinair pilots need to switch to KLM at the bottom of the seniority list (can been voluntary or compulsory of not enough volunteers) and in start functions (SO longhaul or FO KLM Cityhopper)
- 67 FTE martinair pilots going to KLM retain their salary including payrises as if they were still with MAC untill their virtual KLM salary catches up and then that is their new salary.
There are a lot more points but these were the ones of the top of my head. The most important in my opinion is that nobody loses their job or loses salary (so we all can pay the mortgage, wives, mistresses etc etc).
There is a small group of people within MAC who will lose a lot of career prospect having to go to KLM at the bottom. But it is a very small group and again they lose no salary and get a better pension (quite important in these uncertain times).
The fact is, that the MAC pilot group was very wary of the secret nature that the negotiations were done and hired at their own expense external legal advice (est. cost 60.000 euro's). This did not sit very well with the KLM pilots and did raise tensions for a bit (which was more due to misunderstandings than anything else). The legal advice told the MAC pilots to sign on the dotted line as soon as possible as they would never ever get a better deal than this.
The problem with all these major deal including some of the most sacred parts of our profession, seniority and career prospect is that there can not only be winners, the best deals are when there are the least losers...
I for one was present at the KLM ledenraad meeting which voted for the deal (actually that was the codename "de deal"), all 10,5 hours of it. I really hope the guys coming over from MAC to KLM have a great time within our great company.
It has one board (dutch name bestuur) and for the main part 3 ledenraden (groups of representatives of the company divided into subblocks of the seniority list).
The board does all negotiations with all the companies, bit the individual ledenraden have the right to ammend, or vote out any deals made by the bestuur. So no one company pilot group can overrule the others (well there technically is a possibility, but that is very complex). On the outside it looks very strange, but it has served us very well in the last 80 years or so.
The deal which was made, was very complex and the result of over 1,5 years of negotiating between the VNV and Martinair/KLM. One of the main point which the union tried to hammer in to all parties concerned (KLM and Martinair pilot sides) was that the best deal was one where both parties gave about the same amount. There idea was to never have one pilot group have massive advantage over the other.
So what are the highlights of the deal:
- Martinair stops being a pax operator and focusses only on cargo
- Martinair can not recruite any more pilots
- KLM loses all full cargo aircraft to martinair
- All martinair pilots will become part of the KLM pilot pension fund (2d best pension fund in the Netherlands)
- 67 FTE martinair pilots need to switch to KLM at the bottom of the seniority list (can been voluntary or compulsory of not enough volunteers) and in start functions (SO longhaul or FO KLM Cityhopper)
- 67 FTE martinair pilots going to KLM retain their salary including payrises as if they were still with MAC untill their virtual KLM salary catches up and then that is their new salary.
There are a lot more points but these were the ones of the top of my head. The most important in my opinion is that nobody loses their job or loses salary (so we all can pay the mortgage, wives, mistresses etc etc).
There is a small group of people within MAC who will lose a lot of career prospect having to go to KLM at the bottom. But it is a very small group and again they lose no salary and get a better pension (quite important in these uncertain times).
The fact is, that the MAC pilot group was very wary of the secret nature that the negotiations were done and hired at their own expense external legal advice (est. cost 60.000 euro's). This did not sit very well with the KLM pilots and did raise tensions for a bit (which was more due to misunderstandings than anything else). The legal advice told the MAC pilots to sign on the dotted line as soon as possible as they would never ever get a better deal than this.
The problem with all these major deal including some of the most sacred parts of our profession, seniority and career prospect is that there can not only be winners, the best deals are when there are the least losers...
I for one was present at the KLM ledenraad meeting which voted for the deal (actually that was the codename "de deal"), all 10,5 hours of it. I really hope the guys coming over from MAC to KLM have a great time within our great company.
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In the history of aviation, there has never once been a single totally successful integration of one pilot group into another during a buy-out, take-over or similar event. You can search the annals of history and I challenge any pilot to find a single case where all the pilots got all they wanted. Within that limitation, there have been some considerably more successful integrations than others. I am not affected by these 2 companies coming together, but I have considerable sympathy for the union negotiators who had to make it all work. Reading the terms of the deal, there will be winners and losers, but all the key protections are in place for every single pilot. In a seniority-based system, and I totally believe in seniority, then this is about as good as it gets.
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Don't shoot the messenger but this is the response:
"Every single Martinair pilot is utterly disgusted by the position of the Union which is run by and for KLM pilots and we were treated like second best. The "ledenraad"is a farce as it is all about size and guess what, KLM pilots win hands down. The only reason Martinair staff accepted is to take the money while looking for something else in line with the seniority and experience we have. It was a choice between being screwed or nothing and the union was on the screwing side to protect our blue collegues. Legally it was a take over and legally and morally we should have been integrated on the seniority list of KLM as is the position of another dutch union. But a firm NO from our KLM collegues, who had the KLM UK integration in the back of their mind, made this non negotioable and our ledenraad had to go for second best"
ps 1 I will save you the exact wording as it is not broadcastable as it was 03:00 local and the bar empty
ps 2 I am out of this discussion as I am no party
"Every single Martinair pilot is utterly disgusted by the position of the Union which is run by and for KLM pilots and we were treated like second best. The "ledenraad"is a farce as it is all about size and guess what, KLM pilots win hands down. The only reason Martinair staff accepted is to take the money while looking for something else in line with the seniority and experience we have. It was a choice between being screwed or nothing and the union was on the screwing side to protect our blue collegues. Legally it was a take over and legally and morally we should have been integrated on the seniority list of KLM as is the position of another dutch union. But a firm NO from our KLM collegues, who had the KLM UK integration in the back of their mind, made this non negotioable and our ledenraad had to go for second best"
ps 1 I will save you the exact wording as it is not broadcastable as it was 03:00 local and the bar empty
ps 2 I am out of this discussion as I am no party
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@No RYR for me
Sounds like one of the militants, there are always people who will feel hard done by any deal.
Some martinair guys felt they deserved a place on the KLM seniority list because KLM got 3 non-profitable pax routes. They did forget that KLM lost 3 full-freighters and gained quite a bit uncertainty. There were actually quite a few KLM pilots who were of the opinion KLM should just let MAC go bust and fire the lot. Especially after MAC got bailed out by KLM (and mac militants will say that KLM brought mac in this position) and then mac pilots started demanding a place on the KLM seniority list while they should be happy they have a job to start off with!
I'm not saying the deal was good for everybody, but I do think that it was the most fair. Demanding horizontal integration into the seniority list would have been very messy, also with regards to Transavia who have been a full KLM daughter much longer and would also demand that (as I know first hand as my girlfriend is a FO for Transavia). I can't name one seniority list integration that has worked... Only thing I've seen is more divide..
In the end, everybody kept their salary and the martinair guys got a much better pension deal. In these uncertain times I think that is worth quite a lot. I also think the company didn't want a drawn out fight between 2 pilot groups, damages profitability.
In respect to the VNV being an all KLM club, there are some interesting points to take into consideration.
- Not one person of the martinair ledenraad voted against, with the KLM it was 2 against, the ledenraad represents the members, so why did everyone in MAC vote for the deal?
- Every ledenraad can vote against this deal, which means that if you don't agree you vote against. The risk you take is that you might get a worse deal second time around, and I think that is what the martinair guys thought.
- The bestuur is made up of KLM, Martinair and Transavia pilots, it is electable every 2 years and everyone may put forward their own bestuur, so if some group want to break through the KLM-ony stigma why don't they put forward an alternative.
The 3 major airlines (KLM, Transavia and Martinair) in the Netherlands have one of the best terms and endearments on the planet, with massive work protection and very well funded pensions scemes. I think this is largely due to having 1 strong union representing all. Hopefully Arkefly (the next up and coming airline in the netherlands) will get in a similar position soon.
I have to admit it doesn't always work for everyone. The KLMuK and KLC integrations showed that, but every once in a while they do get the most out of it for the most amount of people and I think this was one of these moments.
Somebody, somewhere will always be pissed off. I also don't fully agree with some parts of the deal, and will watch with interest how it plays out, but I did vote for the deal as I think it is best in the long run, for the pilots and for maintaining profitability in the company.
Sounds like one of the militants, there are always people who will feel hard done by any deal.
Some martinair guys felt they deserved a place on the KLM seniority list because KLM got 3 non-profitable pax routes. They did forget that KLM lost 3 full-freighters and gained quite a bit uncertainty. There were actually quite a few KLM pilots who were of the opinion KLM should just let MAC go bust and fire the lot. Especially after MAC got bailed out by KLM (and mac militants will say that KLM brought mac in this position) and then mac pilots started demanding a place on the KLM seniority list while they should be happy they have a job to start off with!
I'm not saying the deal was good for everybody, but I do think that it was the most fair. Demanding horizontal integration into the seniority list would have been very messy, also with regards to Transavia who have been a full KLM daughter much longer and would also demand that (as I know first hand as my girlfriend is a FO for Transavia). I can't name one seniority list integration that has worked... Only thing I've seen is more divide..
In the end, everybody kept their salary and the martinair guys got a much better pension deal. In these uncertain times I think that is worth quite a lot. I also think the company didn't want a drawn out fight between 2 pilot groups, damages profitability.
In respect to the VNV being an all KLM club, there are some interesting points to take into consideration.
- Not one person of the martinair ledenraad voted against, with the KLM it was 2 against, the ledenraad represents the members, so why did everyone in MAC vote for the deal?
- Every ledenraad can vote against this deal, which means that if you don't agree you vote against. The risk you take is that you might get a worse deal second time around, and I think that is what the martinair guys thought.
- The bestuur is made up of KLM, Martinair and Transavia pilots, it is electable every 2 years and everyone may put forward their own bestuur, so if some group want to break through the KLM-ony stigma why don't they put forward an alternative.
The 3 major airlines (KLM, Transavia and Martinair) in the Netherlands have one of the best terms and endearments on the planet, with massive work protection and very well funded pensions scemes. I think this is largely due to having 1 strong union representing all. Hopefully Arkefly (the next up and coming airline in the netherlands) will get in a similar position soon.
I have to admit it doesn't always work for everyone. The KLMuK and KLC integrations showed that, but every once in a while they do get the most out of it for the most amount of people and I think this was one of these moments.
Somebody, somewhere will always be pissed off. I also don't fully agree with some parts of the deal, and will watch with interest how it plays out, but I did vote for the deal as I think it is best in the long run, for the pilots and for maintaining profitability in the company.
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Just received the following link
Martinair staat op strepen - Reizen en vakanties | U leest er alles over op Reiskrant.nl van De Telegraaf [reiskrant]
The article states that the Cabincrew members do not agree with their union that they lose all their seniority since it is technically a take over and because of that they should keep their seniority. This is exactly the same as what the cockpitcrew members said that started this thread..
Martinair staat op strepen - Reizen en vakanties | U leest er alles over op Reiskrant.nl van De Telegraaf [reiskrant]
The article states that the Cabincrew members do not agree with their union that they lose all their seniority since it is technically a take over and because of that they should keep their seniority. This is exactly the same as what the cockpitcrew members said that started this thread..
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....the above article is from a tabloid newspaper with a few altered details to enhance the sensation factor...
Martinair Cabincrew keeps it salary and pension with increments as they would have with Martinair.
OK, Martinair pursers will start as "regular" cabin crew but with aforementioned (their old) T&C.
Add to that the amount of free time and fat secondary T&C's that KLM offers.
They haven't got any reason to complain, especially in these challenging times!!
As for the pilots, i spoke to a few Martinair guys recently, they are mostly very happy with the deal KLM offers them. 68 guys are redundant at Martinair and were transferred to KLM, to start at the bottom of the seniority list.
BUT they keep their full salary, pension and future increments, until the salary they would receive with KLM catches up, and then go on the KLM scale
...so a few of them are now Second Officers at KLM, doing 3 flights a month on a fat Martinair MD11/747/767 salary. Agreed, it may not be nice for your working morale, but you can still pay your mortgage and your financial future is secured or even improved.
........take a look around, to other airlines, and count your blessings!!!
+1 for the VNV!!
Martinair Cabincrew keeps it salary and pension with increments as they would have with Martinair.
OK, Martinair pursers will start as "regular" cabin crew but with aforementioned (their old) T&C.
Add to that the amount of free time and fat secondary T&C's that KLM offers.
They haven't got any reason to complain, especially in these challenging times!!
As for the pilots, i spoke to a few Martinair guys recently, they are mostly very happy with the deal KLM offers them. 68 guys are redundant at Martinair and were transferred to KLM, to start at the bottom of the seniority list.
BUT they keep their full salary, pension and future increments, until the salary they would receive with KLM catches up, and then go on the KLM scale
...so a few of them are now Second Officers at KLM, doing 3 flights a month on a fat Martinair MD11/747/767 salary. Agreed, it may not be nice for your working morale, but you can still pay your mortgage and your financial future is secured or even improved.
........take a look around, to other airlines, and count your blessings!!!
+1 for the VNV!!
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Also heard that all Martinair pilots that are all ready on pension lose the privilege of discount tickets (z, 90%, etc)! The argument being that Martinair don't fly pax anymore? Kind of a daft conclusion but, again what's logical in a merger?
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@ No RYR for me
When starting this topic You exactly got it right ! Whatever some KLM-pilots say on this subject.
Backs to the wall with families to feed.What else should the Martinair pilots have chosen ? I wonder what they would say if the AF-pilots union had done the same to them.
But, sad enough : there are always losers in a merger and it's mostly the ones being taken over.
I thank those of the less senior pilots who had to leave to work in the future as "bunk preparers" and "FMS punchers" for some loathsome characters out there.I am aware that they took up the biggest tab.
So long guys ! MP won't be the same without You !
When starting this topic You exactly got it right ! Whatever some KLM-pilots say on this subject.
Backs to the wall with families to feed.What else should the Martinair pilots have chosen ? I wonder what they would say if the AF-pilots union had done the same to them.
But, sad enough : there are always losers in a merger and it's mostly the ones being taken over.
I thank those of the less senior pilots who had to leave to work in the future as "bunk preparers" and "FMS punchers" for some loathsome characters out there.I am aware that they took up the biggest tab.
So long guys ! MP won't be the same without You !
Last edited by .86; 18th Dec 2011 at 10:53.
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@.86
"What else should the Martinair pilots have chosen ?"
Well, what else would the MP pilots like to have? 1 on 1 seniority when moving to KLM??
OK, a takeover does not go smoothly for some, but all MP guys keep their old salary plus future increments, untill the KLM salary catches up and they all have a secure JOB!
Those "KLM turds" as you refer to could also have said NO to the proposal as it is now; then you would really have been with "your backs against the wall"
As to the MP guys who now have to move over to KLM as "bunk preparers" and "FMS punchers" ...been there done that.... I also have a background in another airline, when I came to KLM I was placed at KLC. When I was about to be promoted to capt. my aircraft was phased out and I was parked somewhere else in the company as a "bunk preparer" and "FMS puncher"
Well, I am happy that I have a job that pays all the bills and then some,
I have virtually zero seniority and am not the youngest anymore, but eventhough I dont have a MP 767 F/O salary, I dont complain.
2 Friends of mine have had to sell their house as a result of a takeover going bad, i count my blessings, as a "KLM Turd"
Lets stop bashing eachother like this. Virtually all KLM pilots, me included, are very welcoming to our Martinair COLLEAGUES joining the club and look forward to working with you all, yes, even you .86
"What else should the Martinair pilots have chosen ?"
Well, what else would the MP pilots like to have? 1 on 1 seniority when moving to KLM??
OK, a takeover does not go smoothly for some, but all MP guys keep their old salary plus future increments, untill the KLM salary catches up and they all have a secure JOB!
Those "KLM turds" as you refer to could also have said NO to the proposal as it is now; then you would really have been with "your backs against the wall"
As to the MP guys who now have to move over to KLM as "bunk preparers" and "FMS punchers" ...been there done that.... I also have a background in another airline, when I came to KLM I was placed at KLC. When I was about to be promoted to capt. my aircraft was phased out and I was parked somewhere else in the company as a "bunk preparer" and "FMS puncher"
Well, I am happy that I have a job that pays all the bills and then some,
I have virtually zero seniority and am not the youngest anymore, but eventhough I dont have a MP 767 F/O salary, I dont complain.
2 Friends of mine have had to sell their house as a result of a takeover going bad, i count my blessings, as a "KLM Turd"
Lets stop bashing eachother like this. Virtually all KLM pilots, me included, are very welcoming to our Martinair COLLEAGUES joining the club and look forward to working with you all, yes, even you .86
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Fair enough, turds is out.
Loathsome characters will stay for the moment.
You must surely agree they are out there ? Not You, I can see that.
As for how happy Martinair pilots should be with this RVA and the assesment about "bailing out" by KLM, I still care to have a different opinion.
Watch "Paris" as I am not totally confident there won't be some surprises for all of us in the future.
Happy X-mass.
Loathsome characters will stay for the moment.
You must surely agree they are out there ? Not You, I can see that.
As for how happy Martinair pilots should be with this RVA and the assesment about "bailing out" by KLM, I still care to have a different opinion.
Watch "Paris" as I am not totally confident there won't be some surprises for all of us in the future.
Happy X-mass.
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There are loathsome characters, only caring about their own position and wallet. Luckily most guys I fly with have a total different, positive attitude towards the MP colleagues.
Regarding the current economic climate its very important that the MP deal is arranged and that everybody has a roof above their heads. When the economy picks up again we have an opportunity (and some leverage=MPcargo is generating a healthy profit) to shape-up the KL/MP deal, in favor of the MP guys. There is a lot of solidarity for the MP guys within KLM.
We don't know what Paris will do, but united we stand, divided we fall!
Take care
Regarding the current economic climate its very important that the MP deal is arranged and that everybody has a roof above their heads. When the economy picks up again we have an opportunity (and some leverage=MPcargo is generating a healthy profit) to shape-up the KL/MP deal, in favor of the MP guys. There is a lot of solidarity for the MP guys within KLM.
We don't know what Paris will do, but united we stand, divided we fall!
Take care
