Where has it all gone wrong?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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...AF447. A case of pilots with no manual flying skills.
macdo
OK, suddenly no A/P, no A/T, erratic air speed indications, and sensory overload from multiple sources at night in IMC in turbulence at FL350. . . So what?
Zero excuse for an inability to manually maintain configuration: Keeping present cruise thrust set, maintaining cruise attitude (typically 2.5 degrees nose up) . . . by just looking at (and trusting), the self powered standby attitude indicator. Instinctive. Elementary. Nothing more to do until out of the turbulent weather.
Instead, one overwhelmed P/F reacts by saying: "I Have Control" and pulls the stick, climbing 3000 feet into a stall.
"...there is ample indication on other threads to support the theory that the crew were presented with information from their instruments and warning systems which was contradictory and confusing."
Zero excuse for an inability to manually maintain configuration: Keeping present cruise thrust set, maintaining cruise attitude (typically 2.5 degrees nose up) . . . by just looking at (and trusting), the self powered standby attitude indicator. Instinctive. Elementary. Nothing more to do until out of the turbulent weather.
Instead, one overwhelmed P/F reacts by saying: "I Have Control" and pulls the stick, climbing 3000 feet into a stall.
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The airlines that put these unqualified folks in the cockpit are part of the problem and thus responsible for the outcome of such tragedies. As they say… tuition comes at a very dear price… and in the case of AF447 lives.
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Seriously people let it go with the AF447 crash. No-one is disputing that pilot error occurs, but to harp on about one incident is a bit much. Yes there are others too but look at the other side of the fence. REAL pilots as you would call them crash too. There are numerous examples of military/civil/light aircraft crashes that were also pilot error.
Ultimately yes as a commercial pilot we do not physically fly as much as other pilots in different areas of the piloting world, but that is because it is just not practical. The world has changed and everything is about bottom lines, commercial pressures and economics. This is what drives our T and C's now. For this we have to thank many people: government, companies, individuals etc. It is certainly not just the self sponsor types that have changed our industry.
It is always easy to sit behind the computer/desk or in a comfy armchair and make judgements on events that have happened to others but I don't believe it serves a purpose. All we can hope is that we will step up to the challenge when it arises and be able to solve whatever situation has arisen.
Learn from the past and from others actions.
NEVER say NEVER.
Ultimately yes as a commercial pilot we do not physically fly as much as other pilots in different areas of the piloting world, but that is because it is just not practical. The world has changed and everything is about bottom lines, commercial pressures and economics. This is what drives our T and C's now. For this we have to thank many people: government, companies, individuals etc. It is certainly not just the self sponsor types that have changed our industry.
It is always easy to sit behind the computer/desk or in a comfy armchair and make judgements on events that have happened to others but I don't believe it serves a purpose. All we can hope is that we will step up to the challenge when it arises and be able to solve whatever situation has arisen.
Learn from the past and from others actions.
NEVER say NEVER.
Join Date: Mar 2009
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True ...... True ...... True!
Though as my avatar suggests, I got out too early at fifty three, I nonetheless did 25 years finishing up as senior management pilot on international routes.
Back in the "good old days" we travelled first class when deadheading, got top salaries, conditions, accomodation and virtually anything we wanted, including $$$$$$$$ was "just about" there for the taking.
But as already said that was when pilots had a big role in running the airline, knew the value of MORALE - rude word these days - and generally treated their crews with much respect.
Then it all went to s*it when management was taken over by bean counters, dropkicks from other failed airlines/companies and those who believed pilot bashing was the in sport.
Me? I had the best of the best for my entire career and though I still miss flying dreadfully, I now see the attitudes of management, airline employees, cabin crew and the general public and know that whether you have a great job or not, the business of drilling holes in the sky has lost all of it's glamour and adventure.
It's a sad feeling to see a job I once loved and respected go down the gurgler! Example??? Have a look at QANTAS?
Being torn apart by some halfwit from the UK who has absolutely no idea of what Pilots (and Engineers) are all about!
Bugga!!
Back in the "good old days" we travelled first class when deadheading, got top salaries, conditions, accomodation and virtually anything we wanted, including $$$$$$$$ was "just about" there for the taking.
But as already said that was when pilots had a big role in running the airline, knew the value of MORALE - rude word these days - and generally treated their crews with much respect.
Then it all went to s*it when management was taken over by bean counters, dropkicks from other failed airlines/companies and those who believed pilot bashing was the in sport.
Me? I had the best of the best for my entire career and though I still miss flying dreadfully, I now see the attitudes of management, airline employees, cabin crew and the general public and know that whether you have a great job or not, the business of drilling holes in the sky has lost all of it's glamour and adventure.
It's a sad feeling to see a job I once loved and respected go down the gurgler! Example??? Have a look at QANTAS?
Being torn apart by some halfwit from the UK who has absolutely no idea of what Pilots (and Engineers) are all about!
Bugga!!
Join Date: Feb 1998
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You said it RTE.
As a TAA 727 FO before the war I worked with what was once
a high standard domestic airline, and much of the conditions
you described went on there and in Reg's mob too. The crew
were good, aircraft were good, conditions, hours etc, and a
lot of pride in one's profession and Company. In short it was
worth the hard bloody work to get there.
All that changed of course when the Fat
got Jimmy Bow
Tie teed up after he obtained the corrupted Silver Bogie on
his payroll, and decided to do a Lorenzo spinoff. But I'm not
posting to go over history - the point is the days when being
an airline pilot meant something are gone, and gone forever.
Its a mug's game and has been for some time now. The shoe
is now on the other foot - pilots should use outfits now to suit
THEIR agendas. Once a ****ty outfit has served your purpose,
move on to another better one until you have extracted what
you required. Quit and move on to an even better one. I have
been doing this for 20 years now and each time I've made an
advancement both financially and careerwise.
Adapt to the new system out there, and gain as much as you
can. Use up these bastards the same way as they use up you.
Loyalty to one's employer has no place in 21st century airline
industry.
As a TAA 727 FO before the war I worked with what was once
a high standard domestic airline, and much of the conditions
you described went on there and in Reg's mob too. The crew
were good, aircraft were good, conditions, hours etc, and a
lot of pride in one's profession and Company. In short it was
worth the hard bloody work to get there.
All that changed of course when the Fat
got Jimmy BowTie teed up after he obtained the corrupted Silver Bogie on
his payroll, and decided to do a Lorenzo spinoff. But I'm not
posting to go over history - the point is the days when being
an airline pilot meant something are gone, and gone forever.
Its a mug's game and has been for some time now. The shoe
is now on the other foot - pilots should use outfits now to suit
THEIR agendas. Once a ****ty outfit has served your purpose,
move on to another better one until you have extracted what
you required. Quit and move on to an even better one. I have
been doing this for 20 years now and each time I've made an
advancement both financially and careerwise.
Adapt to the new system out there, and gain as much as you
can. Use up these bastards the same way as they use up you.
Loyalty to one's employer has no place in 21st century airline
industry.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Barriers to entry
If this has been said, apologies.
There has always been and will continue to be for the foreseeable future a great pool of young men and women who aspire to be pilots both military and civil. Their talents will very and also their social circumstances and ability to pay.
In today's low cost airline environment, all airlines are reducing Ts & Cs and the low cost guys have led the way. There isn't enough profit in these fares to pay us well, you can't be paid at Flybe what you can at Thomson. Any individual line pilot can easily be lost to the company and there is no material detriment to the business. This isn't so in a law firm / brokerage / private clinic. Those guys trade on reputation, we are anonymous operational staff. We are not professionals in the old sense, our job is too modern for that and we don't therefore have any decent ties to government to help us defend the industry.
Whilst we all know that a good Captain runs a safe and economical operation, the managers don't see this detail and in any case calculate that a much lower total pilot budget is in the best interests of the company and any individual managers bonus. Take the keys, bring it back in one piece, minimum standard, low cost. The engineers have saved us all from being tested except on the rarest of occasions, and that has meant ever decreasing standards and less able pilots doing an acceptable job (in financial terms). I do believe that we are heading for an accident or two in low cost in Europe, but such is the low probability of that, it could be tomorrow or in 10 yrs time.
Our only defense as I see it, and which BALPA, has worked little on is to stop the lowering of barriers to entry.
CTC / Oxfordnow select mainly on ability to pay. I recently spoke to a cabin crew member who failed the selection at CTC but was going back in 6 weeks to resit that portion. In the past people were not invited back for years.
Every person undertaking ATPL exams is cheating. All the schools have almost every question available, the quality of so called feedback is almost perfect. It cannot have been gained through feedback of remembered questions but only through wholesale copy. It is a gross dereliction of duty for the licensing authorities not to prevent this and uphold the standards of their exams.
With the MPPL the difficult initial IR test has been done away with.
A parents ability to pay is not sufficient grounds to entrust passengers to their spawn.
Trainers at easyJet are now complaining of attitude and ability problems with Cadets.
If the pilot workforce fails to raise barriers to entry we will continue the downward trend as airlines seek to fill the RHS as cheaply as possible, leaving the question of finding suitable captains till a later date and a different manager.
BALPA has failed.
To ensure the safe conduct of European passenger flights we must raise barriers to entry and awareness by:
Demanding stringent testing of potential pilots, academic and practical.
Raising awareness amongst parents of potential pilots of conditions and prospects
Raising awareness amongst the travelling public of who is flying them, how much training they have had, their lifestyle in terms of pay, debt, work and rest.
---------
---apologies for any iPad induced typographic errors
There has always been and will continue to be for the foreseeable future a great pool of young men and women who aspire to be pilots both military and civil. Their talents will very and also their social circumstances and ability to pay.
In today's low cost airline environment, all airlines are reducing Ts & Cs and the low cost guys have led the way. There isn't enough profit in these fares to pay us well, you can't be paid at Flybe what you can at Thomson. Any individual line pilot can easily be lost to the company and there is no material detriment to the business. This isn't so in a law firm / brokerage / private clinic. Those guys trade on reputation, we are anonymous operational staff. We are not professionals in the old sense, our job is too modern for that and we don't therefore have any decent ties to government to help us defend the industry.
Whilst we all know that a good Captain runs a safe and economical operation, the managers don't see this detail and in any case calculate that a much lower total pilot budget is in the best interests of the company and any individual managers bonus. Take the keys, bring it back in one piece, minimum standard, low cost. The engineers have saved us all from being tested except on the rarest of occasions, and that has meant ever decreasing standards and less able pilots doing an acceptable job (in financial terms). I do believe that we are heading for an accident or two in low cost in Europe, but such is the low probability of that, it could be tomorrow or in 10 yrs time.
Our only defense as I see it, and which BALPA, has worked little on is to stop the lowering of barriers to entry.
CTC / Oxfordnow select mainly on ability to pay. I recently spoke to a cabin crew member who failed the selection at CTC but was going back in 6 weeks to resit that portion. In the past people were not invited back for years.
Every person undertaking ATPL exams is cheating. All the schools have almost every question available, the quality of so called feedback is almost perfect. It cannot have been gained through feedback of remembered questions but only through wholesale copy. It is a gross dereliction of duty for the licensing authorities not to prevent this and uphold the standards of their exams.
With the MPPL the difficult initial IR test has been done away with.
A parents ability to pay is not sufficient grounds to entrust passengers to their spawn.
Trainers at easyJet are now complaining of attitude and ability problems with Cadets.
If the pilot workforce fails to raise barriers to entry we will continue the downward trend as airlines seek to fill the RHS as cheaply as possible, leaving the question of finding suitable captains till a later date and a different manager.
BALPA has failed.
To ensure the safe conduct of European passenger flights we must raise barriers to entry and awareness by:
Demanding stringent testing of potential pilots, academic and practical.
Raising awareness amongst parents of potential pilots of conditions and prospects
Raising awareness amongst the travelling public of who is flying them, how much training they have had, their lifestyle in terms of pay, debt, work and rest.
---------
---apologies for any iPad induced typographic errors
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Loss of flight skills
"When you start to look at unusual accidents like the French 330, it is just as likely that the automation led to the accident, as any inadequacy in the crew's response. "
In ME training, it used to be drummed into the student that the good engine can take you to the scene of the crash if a/c not flown correctly. Now Automation can take you to the seen of the stall - not just AF447, but Colgan, Thomsonfly B737, Turkish B737 AMS.
Only in latter case was the earth too close for a stall recovery.
Over the past 10 years Pilot loss of control is the No1 killer in Commercial aviation. It is not just the sheer number of flights having increased. This is a percentage of total flights.
Manual handling and automation airmanship skills have faded industry wide. The training system is partly to blame. Industry is repsonding:
SKYbrary - Loss of Control
http://www.safeopsys.com/docs/RAES_URT_MASTER.pdf
In ME training, it used to be drummed into the student that the good engine can take you to the scene of the crash if a/c not flown correctly. Now Automation can take you to the seen of the stall - not just AF447, but Colgan, Thomsonfly B737, Turkish B737 AMS.
Only in latter case was the earth too close for a stall recovery.
Over the past 10 years Pilot loss of control is the No1 killer in Commercial aviation. It is not just the sheer number of flights having increased. This is a percentage of total flights.
Manual handling and automation airmanship skills have faded industry wide. The training system is partly to blame. Industry is repsonding:
SKYbrary - Loss of Control
http://www.safeopsys.com/docs/RAES_URT_MASTER.pdf
Join Date: Sep 2002
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The Problem?
English Management who grew up under Thatcher and now run airlines.
= Wipe out all who are smaller than thou.
(For foreigners ((non-english)) - watch "Billy Elliot")
English Management who grew up under Thatcher and now run airlines.
= Wipe out all who are smaller than thou.
(For foreigners ((non-english)) - watch "Billy Elliot")
