Where has it all gone wrong?
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Where has it all gone wrong?
I am an inexperienced First Officer ( in my view) 1000 hours on type I come from an Aviation Family and wanted to continue as this always appeared to be a proud professional profession. I self sponsered my way through my ATPL and type rating and have a position now , even though I had to sign a training bond for a type rating I already had. However new start, new country for my young family and myself ...... HOW Wrong.
The last 6 months have consisted of my recurrent training whereby the Instructor fell asleep in the simulator. I am flying with inexperienced Captains whom are thrown into the left seat ready or not once they get to 3000 hours. And sadly the professional older Captains are walking out......... The aircraft are tatty and worn........ The Management are just not interested, ........... Is it the same with all companies or am I just unlucky....... To be honest I feel that there must be better ways of earning a living....
The last 6 months have consisted of my recurrent training whereby the Instructor fell asleep in the simulator. I am flying with inexperienced Captains whom are thrown into the left seat ready or not once they get to 3000 hours. And sadly the professional older Captains are walking out......... The aircraft are tatty and worn........ The Management are just not interested, ........... Is it the same with all companies or am I just unlucky....... To be honest I feel that there must be better ways of earning a living....
Sorry to hear your predicament but at least you have A job - many haven't.
That said, yes there are employers out there with better Terms & Conditions - just keep applying and something will come up.
Good Luck
That said, yes there are employers out there with better Terms & Conditions - just keep applying and something will come up.
Good Luck
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Thanks for the response, ...... I just wonder where it will all end. When I say senior Captains are walking out its not just the job its Out of aviation. Its mainly the managements attitude......... no care or consideration get the job done and stay out of our hair. ah well
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Same old story...
Hey there,mate...The same crap everywhere,except you're flying for a legacy carrier,which can be counted on the fingers of your one hand...People doing the job are not interested any longer,no respect,average salaries,simulator checks have become a formality,nobody's interested what you know and how you can handle an a/c as long as you remember the button-pushing sequence...A lot of hard work and it's a game over without a simple "thanks" once you lose your medical.
Every time I go to fly I expect to be treated like a nobody by ops,management, ATC , security personnel and even cabin crew.No respect,no rights and you're always the one to blame for everything...Though I still love the job and always wanted to do it,I would strongly recommend anyone thinking of it as a profession to be very careful.But,good luck,anyway,I'm sure those who are willing to change things will find their better place with greener grass,stay on the positive side
Every time I go to fly I expect to be treated like a nobody by ops,management, ATC , security personnel and even cabin crew.No respect,no rights and you're always the one to blame for everything...Though I still love the job and always wanted to do it,I would strongly recommend anyone thinking of it as a profession to be very careful.But,good luck,anyway,I'm sure those who are willing to change things will find their better place with greener grass,stay on the positive side
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I don't suppose this operator uses B737s and needs more F/Os? - as I'm type rated and desperate!
As fireflybob says many haven't got a job.... me being one of them! Of course I'd like good Ts and Cs (who wouldn't?) but right now I'd just like to be flying and building experience!
As fireflybob says many haven't got a job.... me being one of them! Of course I'd like good Ts and Cs (who wouldn't?) but right now I'd just like to be flying and building experience!
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Unfortunately, this scenario is only too common now. The rot set in when airlines were no longer run by aviation professionals but bean counters and management school graduates. I don't honestly see it improving.
Me cynical? Absolutely; with good reason!
Me cynical? Absolutely; with good reason!
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Andrew, is this honestly your own opinion, or are you repeating what the more vocal disgruntled guys are saying? Just check yourself. For example, what do you really know about experience at 3000 hours and becoming a captain? You've only just started!
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I self sponsered my way through ........ and type rating
Once MOL proved that there was a line of people willing to pay to sit in the right seat, the respect rapidly went out the window....
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I have been in different outfits all over the world but never experienced a sim check as a formality or someone falling asleep. Maybe its me, they keep on be picky on every detail. I would love to have a sleeping instructor 
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You make a very interesting point Jazz Hands...."For heaven's sake, don't you think every other profession on the planet hasn't had to deal with exactly the same stuff? What makes aviation think it has some God-given exemption?"
.......well there aren't many other professions on this planet where in the blink of eye hundreds of lives can be lost or saved (AF447 or US Airways Flight 1549) by the actions and split second decisions of two people!!
Oh and yes you are right it is called 'life', that's each and every single one that is lost or saved by the ability of those who enter the flight deck and close the door behind them, not the "bean counters" you refer to.
.......well there aren't many other professions on this planet where in the blink of eye hundreds of lives can be lost or saved (AF447 or US Airways Flight 1549) by the actions and split second decisions of two people!!
Oh and yes you are right it is called 'life', that's each and every single one that is lost or saved by the ability of those who enter the flight deck and close the door behind them, not the "bean counters" you refer to.
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Where did it all go wrong?
Dear Andrew,
Look at this sentence:
"I self sponsered my way through my ATPL and type rating and have a position now , even though I had to sign a training bond for a type rating I already had."
That was written by you.
Can you see where it started to go wrong?
Look at this sentence:
"I self sponsered my way through my ATPL and type rating and have a position now , even though I had to sign a training bond for a type rating I already had."
That was written by you.
Can you see where it started to go wrong?
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Mike Hotel:
In the past airlines (majors at least) paid for your training. Competition was tough for such places, hence rewards were good.....
.....compare that to.......
......Paying for ratings and then compounding the situation by accepting a bond on that very same type......
.....if you want more reasons why it's gone wrong, ask your Mum.
In the past airlines (majors at least) paid for your training. Competition was tough for such places, hence rewards were good.....
.....compare that to.......
......Paying for ratings and then compounding the situation by accepting a bond on that very same type......
.....if you want more reasons why it's gone wrong, ask your Mum.
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Jazz Hands, might we revisit your glib statement when we really have something to get over? A fatal hull loss attributable to fatigue for instance?
I fear we won't be waiting long.
I fear we won't be waiting long.
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Back in the 'golden' old days, 1000 hours probably meant you were blasting around in a clapped out twin engine piston powered spam can, or if you were really lucky you were sat in a knackered oily old turbo prop! Ether way you were probably lugging your own cargo or briefing the pax personally. FTL, what were those?
Andrew7, you are not working for a career airline. Get what you can out of it, like a 3000 hour command, and then poke off as soon as a better offer comes along (like the older more experienced captains you speak of are doing!). That's how it is. Not quite the rose tinted industry the media and flight schools had you believe but you are doing something you should be able to get at least some enjoyment out of, and if not then why continue doing it at all?
Just please, don't become one of these bloody old moaners that I come across from time to time!
Andrew7, you are not working for a career airline. Get what you can out of it, like a 3000 hour command, and then poke off as soon as a better offer comes along (like the older more experienced captains you speak of are doing!). That's how it is. Not quite the rose tinted industry the media and flight schools had you believe but you are doing something you should be able to get at least some enjoyment out of, and if not then why continue doing it at all?
Just please, don't become one of these bloody old moaners that I come across from time to time!
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This is the state of the world; not just aviation.
Until there is unity - they will carry on shafting us.
Until there is unity - they will carry on shafting us.
Something for BALPA to learn from maybe? Then again industrial unity amongst pilots - never happen.
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When I started on B-737 in 2007, we had a good basic salary, per-diems, overtime, sick pay...
And every year, something has been removed. The first year we had 8 days off in a row (commuting) then they changed it to 4 + 4, with the possibility to take 1 holiday, so it became 5 + 5
Then they removed the sick-pay, yet we had to provide a doctor certificate when sick.
Overtime pay was removed, and before we got another per-diem when arriving after midnight, now this was removed as well...
Some of our captain left for other airlines, but I know of at least one captain who quit flying altogether, he said he was fed up about modern aviation and being treated without respect.
Many of the contract pilots wanted to leave, but the were ?
Most coninued only because they had no other job to go to, this does not mean terms & conditions are fair.
Yes, those who have a job should be happy in one way, compared to those who don't have a job, but coditions are getting worse and worse every year...
And every year, something has been removed. The first year we had 8 days off in a row (commuting) then they changed it to 4 + 4, with the possibility to take 1 holiday, so it became 5 + 5
Then they removed the sick-pay, yet we had to provide a doctor certificate when sick.
Overtime pay was removed, and before we got another per-diem when arriving after midnight, now this was removed as well...
Some of our captain left for other airlines, but I know of at least one captain who quit flying altogether, he said he was fed up about modern aviation and being treated without respect.
Many of the contract pilots wanted to leave, but the were ?
Most coninued only because they had no other job to go to, this does not mean terms & conditions are fair.
Yes, those who have a job should be happy in one way, compared to those who don't have a job, but coditions are getting worse and worse every year...
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i will answer a couple of things.
I would love someone to have sponsered me. However how many European airlines do that these days. ? Secondly you seem to mis-understand i am not complaining about people with 3000 hours getting left seat, if they are good enough then thats great and good for them, however I feel that i would learn a lot more from the older experienced Captains than my 3000 hour "friends" . The statement I made is that the good guys,,,, that is some of the experienced ones,,,, seem to be leaving , and not just my airline but the industry...... in my Airline alone 3 Captains leaving this month and not for other positions but to get out of the game. So how does that leave me thinking? How am I to learn? what future is there in this profession.... I am entering a profession and it appears foolishly thought that it would give me the same satisfaction that my Fathers had. Because one thing I know he would go to work happy and come home happy. I love flying dont get me wrong but its all the bs............... that accompanies it. Maybe I should look elsewhere but I am asking those with the know is it any better any where else ??
I would love someone to have sponsered me. However how many European airlines do that these days. ? Secondly you seem to mis-understand i am not complaining about people with 3000 hours getting left seat, if they are good enough then thats great and good for them, however I feel that i would learn a lot more from the older experienced Captains than my 3000 hour "friends" . The statement I made is that the good guys,,,, that is some of the experienced ones,,,, seem to be leaving , and not just my airline but the industry...... in my Airline alone 3 Captains leaving this month and not for other positions but to get out of the game. So how does that leave me thinking? How am I to learn? what future is there in this profession.... I am entering a profession and it appears foolishly thought that it would give me the same satisfaction that my Fathers had. Because one thing I know he would go to work happy and come home happy. I love flying dont get me wrong but its all the bs............... that accompanies it.
Maybe I should look elsewhere but I am asking those with the know is it any better any where else ??
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You ask these things now? Where have you been hiding? Usually these things are pretty clear when you start on the first page of PPRuNe. So either you have chosen a very shady outfit to work for, or you listen too much to the moaners, or... you have not done your homework before embarking on this career. And how can you say you do not learn from 3000 hour guys? I know what you mean, but isn't that a bit arrogant coming from someone who just started?
So is it better anywhere else? Well, I'm not sure exactly what your expectations are, so can't answer your question. In many airlines, including legacies, you will get command at 3000 hours, and no, I've never had an instructor falling asleep. I know there are big moaners in any company though..
So what else?
So is it better anywhere else? Well, I'm not sure exactly what your expectations are, so can't answer your question. In many airlines, including legacies, you will get command at 3000 hours, and no, I've never had an instructor falling asleep. I know there are big moaners in any company though..
So what else?