Virgin Atlantic Pilot Strike Ballot
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I don't think it is possible to successfully run an airline for very long, with front line staff who only have 5 days training.
VS and BA pilots can soon be replaced. There are hundreds out there who are qualified to do our jobs. Remember that Yellow Pen.
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In actual fact......It's got nothing to do with Sir Richard...he's as hands on and approachable as the Queen in a cash crisis. As with HRH ..he's just a face and he readily admits to leaving it to Steve Griffiths.
Steve Griffiths is the guy putting the deal on the table.
The buck stops with Steve Griffiths.
So can we have less of Dick and more of Steve.
And train some milkmen to fly the fleet.......see if it helps the company.
Steve Griffiths is the guy putting the deal on the table.
The buck stops with Steve Griffiths.
So can we have less of Dick and more of Steve.
And train some milkmen to fly the fleet.......see if it helps the company.
Last edited by p7lot; 27th Jun 2011 at 18:55.
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In these days of financial constraints it is most important that companies look after their workforce who can make or break the company so easily. A workforce with good morale are more likely to keep customers on side by going the extra mile, whereas an unhappy workforce is unlikely to be as motivated. This seems to me to be another example of managers not managing their workforce effectively because if they were then this situation would not have arisen.
To be a respected manager does not mean that you need to always say yes to your workforce, but it does mean that you need to explain situations clearly, whatever they may be, and to lead by example. It would appear that the managers at Virgin are no different to many others in that they have seperate rules for themselves. I have read that management payrises awarded in 2008 were excessively large when the workforce were awarded nothing. That certainly is not the way to achive good morale within a company nor is it for good company co-operation. I say to all Virgin pilots I hope you achieve success as too many workers in the UK, in all industries, have been neglected by their "management", who have placed their own greed before doing their primary job of managing.
It is about time in this industry that the true value of a pilot is recognised. Managers are easy to replace and many have no real qualifications wheras pilots are highly trained individuals who have taken years to achive the level of experience required for their role. Someone mentioned that theVirgin pilots could be easily replaced. Sure no one is indispensable but I know, from first hand experience in the industry, that the majors have in the past been able to recruit some of the better pilots, a fact that should be valued. Virgin are very fortunate to have such well trained and capable pilots. As a manager I would be doing my upmost to keep this most important part of the workforce onside as they are an insurance policy to a safe and effecient operation.
To be a respected manager does not mean that you need to always say yes to your workforce, but it does mean that you need to explain situations clearly, whatever they may be, and to lead by example. It would appear that the managers at Virgin are no different to many others in that they have seperate rules for themselves. I have read that management payrises awarded in 2008 were excessively large when the workforce were awarded nothing. That certainly is not the way to achive good morale within a company nor is it for good company co-operation. I say to all Virgin pilots I hope you achieve success as too many workers in the UK, in all industries, have been neglected by their "management", who have placed their own greed before doing their primary job of managing.
It is about time in this industry that the true value of a pilot is recognised. Managers are easy to replace and many have no real qualifications wheras pilots are highly trained individuals who have taken years to achive the level of experience required for their role. Someone mentioned that theVirgin pilots could be easily replaced. Sure no one is indispensable but I know, from first hand experience in the industry, that the majors have in the past been able to recruit some of the better pilots, a fact that should be valued. Virgin are very fortunate to have such well trained and capable pilots. As a manager I would be doing my upmost to keep this most important part of the workforce onside as they are an insurance policy to a safe and effecient operation.
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Oxymoron666,
No employee should subsidize their employer whan a business is profitable, and certainly not their customers. I fully accept the role Management has played. If you have made sacrifices during the hard times, you should be looked after when the better times return. Like I said, I have been lucky.
Equally, I would be prepared to pay a bit extra for my holiday if it was guaranteed to maintain and improve employees pay. Sadly, many consumers may not agree but I believe you get what you pay for in life.
Maybe I should have included the question "Do I think the Management of Virgin Atlantic is selfish?" in my original post.
No employee should subsidize their employer whan a business is profitable, and certainly not their customers. I fully accept the role Management has played. If you have made sacrifices during the hard times, you should be looked after when the better times return. Like I said, I have been lucky.
Equally, I would be prepared to pay a bit extra for my holiday if it was guaranteed to maintain and improve employees pay. Sadly, many consumers may not agree but I believe you get what you pay for in life.
Maybe I should have included the question "Do I think the Management of Virgin Atlantic is selfish?" in my original post.
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In a company with union membership of around 95% of the target workgroup, a ballot return of 94%, with 97% of those returns voting for industrial action, is extremely significant. As the 'union' within the company consists solely of the company's active-duty pilots, I don't think there is any way that this can be said to have been orchestrated by a union hell bent on company destruction - I'm sure that's the last thing these pilots want. Couple this with the reported internal survey result of just 6% satisfaction with the way the flight operations department is run, and it seems pretty clear that the bones of this dispute is not about pay - it's more likely about respect, communication and leadership. Or rather, the lack of those things. A union can't call a dispute on multiple topics, especially such ephemeral topics as these, so the very extended negotiations about pay have to serve as the stalking horse in the hope that the settlement will address all the issues at stake.
SRB's letter seems to ignore the underlying issues here, and was released to the press (I believe before it was released to the pilots) - yet the pilots do not have the right of reply in the press, though of course the union does.
Such disaffection is a major issue which should concern all at Virgin, and I sincerely hope it can be addressed before the whole house of cards falls down.
SRB's letter seems to ignore the underlying issues here, and was released to the press (I believe before it was released to the pilots) - yet the pilots do not have the right of reply in the press, though of course the union does.
Such disaffection is a major issue which should concern all at Virgin, and I sincerely hope it can be addressed before the whole house of cards falls down.
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I am no fan of RB by any stretch of the imagination. However I agree with a lot of what he writes.
The days of the "big buck" are gone for pilots, forever. If the strike does go ahead it will probably finish VS. If RB does cave in, all the other trades will also want a rise and I believe it when he says the money wont be there.
The pilots are not indispensable, neither is the airline. Yes as mentioned it will take time to replace pilots. W.W. must be hoping like hell you pilots do go ahead with your action. Every employee at Sabena thought they and the airline were indispensable and look what happened there. If RB pulls the plug a lot of the ex employees and their families will be in for some very hard times indeed.
If the suits are the problem why don't you threaten strike action for "regime change"? If the strike does go ahead I think it could be the beginning of the end for VS., then it will be just another airline that went bust on the long list that is already. All airlines are being priced and taxed out of existence and a lot of the travelling public have probably had a guts full of it already. Who the hell wants to travel by air in their leisure time?? I don't that's for sure.
The dream and the good times are over. If you have a job that pays the bills and you can save a bit, you are in the minority. I think things financially, will only get worse globally but I hope I am wrong.
The days of the "big buck" are gone for pilots, forever. If the strike does go ahead it will probably finish VS. If RB does cave in, all the other trades will also want a rise and I believe it when he says the money wont be there.
The pilots are not indispensable, neither is the airline. Yes as mentioned it will take time to replace pilots. W.W. must be hoping like hell you pilots do go ahead with your action. Every employee at Sabena thought they and the airline were indispensable and look what happened there. If RB pulls the plug a lot of the ex employees and their families will be in for some very hard times indeed.
If the suits are the problem why don't you threaten strike action for "regime change"? If the strike does go ahead I think it could be the beginning of the end for VS., then it will be just another airline that went bust on the long list that is already. All airlines are being priced and taxed out of existence and a lot of the travelling public have probably had a guts full of it already. Who the hell wants to travel by air in their leisure time?? I don't that's for sure.
The dream and the good times are over. If you have a job that pays the bills and you can save a bit, you are in the minority. I think things financially, will only get worse globally but I hope I am wrong.
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Striker replacements?
Sure, you can't replace a competent pilot by "any old bod with 5 days training."
That's what the Continental pilots thought about Frank Lorenzo's antics. Didn't work out too well.
On the other hand,an aspect for management to consider is the forecast shortage of pilots worldwide as the Asian airlines continue booming, and many older pilots across the globe reach retirement age.
Does Branson want to slough off his best people for unknown quantities?
That's what the Continental pilots thought about Frank Lorenzo's antics. Didn't work out too well.
On the other hand,an aspect for management to consider is the forecast shortage of pilots worldwide as the Asian airlines continue booming, and many older pilots across the globe reach retirement age.
Does Branson want to slough off his best people for unknown quantities?
The days of the "big buck" are gone for pilots, forever
The demands from the pilots in this case seem quite reasonable - a pay rise based on inflation etc - hardly asking for "big bucks", merely a request to be treated fairly.
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I have been involved in many employee negotiations and reasonable people always win. Extreme action, extreme standpoints and extreme views never succeed. I don't know the precise details of this case so I apologise if this seems rather dismissive. When I was in business I always paid and needed to pay the highest rate possible for my best employees. Reasonable employees saw the figures and understood the constraints. If I was aVirgin pilot I would not create waves - that's a black mark in the Company's books and takes a long time to remove. Check the facts, listen to the arguments and state your point of view calmly in writing to management - without using hyperbole. But only if you feel you have to.
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I worked for VS from 1990-2001. It had 6 aircraft and 500 employees and was great fun.
We survived the Gulf war, the BA dirty tricks campaign, we had the best product on the market and (IMO) the best people for most of my time there.
Sadly the whole airline started to go down the pan in around 2000. By no short measure around the time Mr B took his leave.
It went from being a fun place with great prospects to being a corporate company with nothing but £ signs.
The terrible J2000 project lost millions and it took another 5 years to get the lost Jcls pax back. Economy went from 34" seat pitch, best entertainment, great meals to what it is now..........enough said there i think.
Everyman and his dog knows that Singapore have been desperate to sell for years and every time Virgin reports a profit the Singapore trading report states otherwise. (That's the great thing about being a private company).
It is a great shame that this once great 'people' airline has come to this.
It has become everything that it once fought against and until that is sorted it has no hope of sorting out the mess it has got itself into.
We survived the Gulf war, the BA dirty tricks campaign, we had the best product on the market and (IMO) the best people for most of my time there.
Sadly the whole airline started to go down the pan in around 2000. By no short measure around the time Mr B took his leave.
It went from being a fun place with great prospects to being a corporate company with nothing but £ signs.
The terrible J2000 project lost millions and it took another 5 years to get the lost Jcls pax back. Economy went from 34" seat pitch, best entertainment, great meals to what it is now..........enough said there i think.
Everyman and his dog knows that Singapore have been desperate to sell for years and every time Virgin reports a profit the Singapore trading report states otherwise. (That's the great thing about being a private company).
It is a great shame that this once great 'people' airline has come to this.
It has become everything that it once fought against and until that is sorted it has no hope of sorting out the mess it has got itself into.
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The good and the Bad
I support the actions of the VS pilots despite having just switched our front end business from BA to VS because of the last farce with Cabin Crew.
Some of the arguments here are so valid and eloquent but when I hear someone stating "Managers are easy to replace and many have no real qualifications whereas pilots are highly trained individuals who have taken years to achieve the level of experience required for their role" - I wonder whether this industry has any chance at all?
Whilst some may not like it, good airline managers are hard to come by and worth their weight in gold. I've had the luck to work with some of them. Many work extremely long hours - 2500hrs+ per year not including long stays away from home. Working on laptops on long haul flights then straight into meetings or back to the office. The skills required by Revenue Management (maximising ticket/freight income) is not learnt at the equivalent of flight school, it takes years of hard work. Sure there are bad managers just as there are bad pilots.
For any airline to be still in business after the last 10 years of industry change and increasing costs is almost a miracle and it has only been achieved by management, crew, front line and back room staff pulling together. Nobody should underestimate each others tasks or feel they are more important.
We all have to change with changing times and that means ALL. VS management need to share the pain and gain equally to survive the next 25 years.
Rant over
MF
Some of the arguments here are so valid and eloquent but when I hear someone stating "Managers are easy to replace and many have no real qualifications whereas pilots are highly trained individuals who have taken years to achieve the level of experience required for their role" - I wonder whether this industry has any chance at all?
Whilst some may not like it, good airline managers are hard to come by and worth their weight in gold. I've had the luck to work with some of them. Many work extremely long hours - 2500hrs+ per year not including long stays away from home. Working on laptops on long haul flights then straight into meetings or back to the office. The skills required by Revenue Management (maximising ticket/freight income) is not learnt at the equivalent of flight school, it takes years of hard work. Sure there are bad managers just as there are bad pilots.
For any airline to be still in business after the last 10 years of industry change and increasing costs is almost a miracle and it has only been achieved by management, crew, front line and back room staff pulling together. Nobody should underestimate each others tasks or feel they are more important.
We all have to change with changing times and that means ALL. VS management need to share the pain and gain equally to survive the next 25 years.
Rant over
MF
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The count asks why should a BA 744 pilot earn more than a VS 744 pilot? Thats life. There is a vast difference from top to bottom pay scales throughout the world airline industry.
However, The VS crew force obviously have missed out since 2008 but at the end of the day a strike benefits nobody, neither the employees or the company. Who wants to be left with just BA long haul for christ sake.
I hope Beardie and BALPA sit down and work out a compromise real soon before things go tits up and the damage can't be reversed
However, The VS crew force obviously have missed out since 2008 but at the end of the day a strike benefits nobody, neither the employees or the company. Who wants to be left with just BA long haul for christ sake.
I hope Beardie and BALPA sit down and work out a compromise real soon before things go tits up and the damage can't be reversed
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Well said MF.... and I agree, good airline Managers ARE worth their weight in Gold and its most definitely is a two way process. Ths historic 'us and them' scenario has to go between crews and management, which requires full open-ness and mutual trust and respect, which I think is the main cause of this dispute.
I think most of the crews AND the Union in this case are trying to get the balance that is needed, but they have been made promises by management, some of which have not been kept. It looks very much to me (from the outside) like a serious failure at HR level, otherwise things would never have got this far.
I think most of the crews AND the Union in this case are trying to get the balance that is needed, but they have been made promises by management, some of which have not been kept. It looks very much to me (from the outside) like a serious failure at HR level, otherwise things would never have got this far.
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Fruitbat, it was supposed to be yesterday I heard on the grapevine, so I suspect from the press silence there's some very heavy private negotiations going on, which could be a good sign.. fingers crossed