Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Anyone interested in the Profession anymore?

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Anyone interested in the Profession anymore?

Old 20th May 2011, 21:52
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 264
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
Wow, Enjoytheview. Wow..
amsm01 is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 09:35
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A few have stuck to the basic question. My answer too, for what it is worth (40 odd years in the Industry & 22500 hrs) is NO. For simple economic reasons. You will not get the return on your investment however the latter is achieved. But, then we go down the romantic route. This career will always attract those who simply love flying. The same deal if you just fancy being a Racing Driver, Top Sportsperson, Actor etc. It IS the buzz.

But, we have done it to ourselves. Status fell away behind Lawyers, Doctors and other professions because we, as pilots, allowed others to take control. Beancounters; Very odd Management pilots (usually from military backgrounds who thought there was still a war on); CRM lectures to pilots by failed Cabin Attendents; Long hours, shorter rests; Aircraft designed by Engineers where little, if any, piloting skills are required. Oh, lets not forget Union Control , either ! Blimey, list goes on & on.

I too have crossed Oceans and enjoyed the view. Endless views of Ice bergs, the snowey wastes of Canada, the deserts.......ohmigosh, several breathtaking views of Everest.........yeah, brilliant and all worth the effort.But, & here is the rub, I didn't pay for it. Fully Sponsored Cadet with everything provided (down to a pencil & eraser). Never payed for a type rating in my life & turned down SIA B747 because they wanted a Training Bond & a Bank Guarantee ! Get outa here ! You guys pay me ! I do this for MONEY ! I am, after all, a COMMERCIAL pilot.

A few years left and like others have said before, my last few years are the unhappiest. I was even called into the Office the other days to explain why I was persisting in rounding up the fuel requirement to the nearest 100KGS (yes, ex Cranwell, Hercs....no brains).

NO, if someone else is paying all the fees right up to full blown, RHS, decent airline, decent jet.....GO FOR IT. Otherwise, do something else and get that buzz from your local flying club.

Ok, yet another, minrest Jakarta coming up. Better watch my fuel load is right down to the flightplanned KG. Awful third-world uniform (get my own shirts made up in Thailand),crap hotel (who cares as it is minrest anyway), awful crews who you really would not want to dine with anyway and geees, if anything remotely challenging comes up, it is Command by discussion (CRM gay Cabin Attendent told me so ).

It really is quite ghastly & NOTHING like what I signed up to us a dreamy Cadet. I did experience the best of it though but, dear readers, would NOT recommend the current Airline Piloting world to anyone.
slowjet is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 12:11
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yep, I'm with slowjet on this one too.

The following post from a forum on another website sums it all up for me ....

Seeing the world from 38,000 feet thousands of times, reading the checklists thousands of times, being strapped into your seat eventless hour after eventless hour, hoping the flight is eventless, saying the same call outs over and over..., every working day like ground hog day, same stomach butterflies in the sim briefing room as you walk the recurrent training tight rope yet again, the gnawing anxiety of something going wrong on the line, the lack of the sense of actually traveling anywhere, the pointlessness of delay codes, the meaninglessness of the fuel league, the tragic sight of new staff trying to look keen at 5 am, trying to sound delighted to be of service to our customers on the P.A. as they try in vain to recline their seats, seemingly unending light to moderate CAT always threatening and teasing something worse, irritable bowel syndrome and occasional gastric barotrauma every day of every week of earlies, fatigue on quite a few days that feels worse than having dengue fever, bad landings when you have 20,000 hours, realizing that all the pax know you are a prat having made a P.A. without enough thought, fuel supervising procedures, thunderstorms everywhere you want to go, ATC, who you know are earning considerably more than you because they have a union, giving you headings into bad weather and not giving you a different level away from turbulence, occasional nightmares of the GPWS going off just before the alarm goes off at 3:45 am, explaining to cabin crew in the annual safety course what you have to do before the first flight of the 7000th day, remembering where the extension seat belts are kept in the same dire course, trying to pretend to the other pilot that you have a life when searching for conversation topics during the black hole of experience more commonly known as the cruise, cancelling the master caution when on the ground with nothing running, telling the other pilot that you are cancelling the master caution when on the ground with nothing running, watching someone thoroughly check the landing distance when landing somewhere like Stansted, pretending to care about a slot delay, having strange flashbacks of watching Thunderbirds as a kid as you call rotate with a slightly American accent just before realizing how sad you look, reading about the company's profits and expansion plans,..........
Sad, but true.

I wish now I'd done law or medicine .......

Aldente is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 12:30
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: FL400
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Slowjet - interesting post, but you spoil it with the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph. If you truly feel that you cannot learn anything from someone because they are from some group that you don't approve of, then I would suggest that you've been in the wrong job your whole career. Listening to people that you perceive to be below you either in rank or social position, is a skill I suspect that one or two of the military guys that you dislike, could teach you a thing or two about.
This may not be the airline world that you joined and you may be resistant to change generally, but things move on. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not. Engineering away the requirement for pilot skills is surely a good thing generally? Ships no longer require a crew of hundreds to man the rigging and likewise aircraft have moved on. Personally I see that as a positive development in safety and efficiency.
I'm sorry if you feel so bitter about your career. A wasted career is a very sad thing. Personally I love flying and I will never do anything else - its un-complicated, largely bad-stress free and still well rewarded in the large part. I suspect if you had tried your hand at something other than flying in your career, you might have found out just how blessed you are.
Al Murdoch is offline  
Old 21st May 2011, 19:14
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: World
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
amsm01: It's up to the man himself to decide how he feels about his life. Unless I'm reading your reaction wrong.
d105 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 08:27
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Worst flights..?

Whilst people love staring at the clouds and experience other delights while flying, my worst flighst are the repatriation flights. Have you ever heard your passengers scream through the cockpit door ? Have you ever experienced passengers being forcibly dragged up the boarding stairs - I have and didn't like it, I definetly wondered what I was doing here. These flights should be done by the military. I watched all this on TV again - even Jet2, who undertake these flights, had their logos 'blurred' when shown on TV and I did not appreciate the cabin crew smiling when they closed the doors
Herc708 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 08:50
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think the Aldente's post sums up lo cost flying pretty well which I did for a couple of years. Is it worth paying 100k+ to do that for 30yrs? No.
I'm very lucky to finally have a great flying job on a modern long haul jet with a 'major', with excellent terms and conditions. Had some amazing trips staying in luxurious hotels around the world, flying a delightful aircraft, eating 1st class food, spending more time in bunks than an average lo co sector, being proud of the service we're delivering, flying with the best, both in the FD and cabin, seeing the world as I always wanted to.. Is it worth paying 100k for what I'm doing? Yes. Unfortunately, looking around there aren't many flying jobs like this anymore. Having felt a bit like some of the other posts here for the last 8 years the contrast is amazing.

Having said that, CTC cadets, who have been so much maligned on here for paying for their own TRs etc, are now joining majors with 500hrs straight from EZY after 1yr. Who's got the last laugh? Them probably as they are now on 60k a year and joining a major whilst under 25.

Last edited by Propellerhead; 22nd May 2011 at 09:01.
Propellerhead is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 10:27
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Al Murdoch, thanks for the editorial and personality assessment. Polax and others appear more succint and answer the thread question. I thought I did too with a bit of illustration.I will try to be a bit more articulate and less illustrative from my own unworthy bank of experience. Great to note the CTC chaps slotted right in and as a result, no doubt, would thoroughly recommend the career. In my 40 year span, the career has changed beyond recognition and will attract a different kind of pilot applicant. I am observing 40 years of deterioration. You strike me as being, possibly, a little newer and unable to see the deterioration that I and others are writing about. Particularly, the level of investment required will not recoup the financial or other rewards expected. It was a simple question, most of us have answered, with regret.
slowjet is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 10:48
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,545
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
slowjet

Great posts, all well observed.......

T'was a great once upon a time, and I only spent my own cash ( <10k STG) moving from military to civvy.

I am observing 40 years of deterioration.
Well I've only seen 35 years but to me the really staggering thing is that the rate of deterioration seems to have increased rapidly in the last decade or so.

In all honesty I still get satisfaction from it sometimes , and I'm well rewarded, but is it worth a youngster gambling 100k plus on the chance of getting the same satisfaction and financial rewards in 35 years? I'd certainly caution very strongly against placing the bet.
wiggy is online now  
Old 22nd May 2011, 11:02
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It would be interesting to see how long the happy people in this thread have been in the industry and how long they have been flying and likewise for the ones who arent so happy.

I would guess that the happy ones are new and the not so happy ones have seen better times.

Or the happy folk are working for 'proper' airline where they feel valued, are well paid and arent being worked into an early grave (one way or another).

For me; I wouldnt encourage my kids into a flying career. Mainly because I see no future in it in the long term and I see no end to the screwing down of terms and conditions.

The person who posted earlier saying that 'try spending 9 - 5 in an office', well I think you will find many of us have, and from where I am sitting right now it doesnt look half bad! Regular hours, home every night, good money etc etc.

I have worked in aviation for almost 20 years and have been flying for 30, I love flying, I dont love flying for an airline. I think pilots have been de-valued for several reasons but mainly because unlike any other job I know people are prepared to pay to go to work.

Last edited by Fly Better!; 22nd May 2011 at 20:06.
Fly Better! is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 11:15
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 910
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Looking, as I am right now, forward to my deep night flight to the Eastern Med (and back), which has followed two earlies (outta bed at 3am) and knowing I'll be on the same rotation for 2 of the next 3 weekends, I can only say that SLOWJET has it completely right. I had a few good years, before the dead hand of accountants, security, terrorists, airline management and our good selves allowed this job to go down the pan to the extent where even the general public start to have sympathy with us!
There is still a career to be had here for anyone who has low expectations of life. If you are lucky you will end up in the top 10% of PAYE jobs and you will get more time off than many. But the lack of job satisfaction and constantly being dicked around by your employer will eventually sap your soul, I fell so sorry for the 20 year old cadets I see around, will they be able to do this job for 50 years and stay sane?
I have two teenage children, who already see that airline flying is a deadend career for most and if you want fun, make some serious money, have friends that you can see at the weekend and buy yourself a Pitts Special.

Re. the 9-5 debate, rather depends who you work for. Working for flybe or somesuch for crap money, I'd rather be in the office and have my weekends off,thanks.
Re. Cabin Crew - the gay comment was not politically correct, but reflects a stereotype senior cabin crew member who has been told by senior cabin crew management that they are integral to the airplane not falling from the sky, and has believed it. We have all met the type of both sexes and they are not an improvement to Flight Safety or CRM.

Last edited by macdo; 22nd May 2011 at 11:26.
macdo is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 15:41
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 264
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
d105: Quite so. It was simply a reaction to what is clearly heartfelt post and I wish him further satisfaction.
amsm01 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2011, 16:06
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: House
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
17 years in. Airline job pays the bills. Stuck on the belt now. Every year a new reason to cut the T&C's. It's a slow death.
nike is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 02:06
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Eurozone
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Have to agree with much of what is being said. I got into flying as a second career in my 30's way back when. I used to be an engineer and the job I used to do entailed more time on aircraft and more open ended time away than I ever do now.

On the minus side, I have had two redundancies and been on the wrong end of the seniority list as a result most of the time. That can happen in any profession but aviation makes it a double whammy as you have to start all over again every time. Hence I am a greying, doddering 3 striper whilst most of my contemporaries sit on the other side of the flightdeck.

On the plus side, I had the good fortune to be employed by a decent operator despite being the wrong side of 50 and now fly freight for a living. I enjoy it because I fly about half the hours that I used to do in pax flying and it's a mix of long and short haul which keeps the interest up. I even have half a chance of getting into the other seat before I am carried off in a pine box. So lots of ups and downs but providing you stay reasonably positive and have the good fortune to keep passing your medicals, things kind of even out.

Do I still enjoy it? Yes overall. I still look up when an aircraft goes overhead and I still stand on top of the steps and watch the comings and goings for a couple of minutes when it's my walkround. Regrets? no, I always wanted to do it and despite some bad times I achieved my ambition despite being told I never would by the usual assortment of naysayers that used to exist before PTF came along. Would I start it now? probably not due to financial considerations but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to.

Advice? have a plan B. I spent over a year not flying due to the state of things in 2010 and developed other ways to make money. I still do them because you never know what is around the next corner and doing something else gives you the chance to look forward to the next trip.

I wouldn't want to be 25 again, even for the increased energy levels.
zeddb is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 03:31
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
one pilot one voice

At some point we will all have to take a stand for our profession. Do an internet search of the name of this post and see that at Air Canada we are trying to take a stand against the errosion of our well deserved compensation and work rules. Its time for all to join the battle.
one pilot is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 09:33
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the support chaps. ALDENTE, your quote had me on the floor. Terriffic stuff & right on. My last sim ride had me heading for Stansted, no hydraulics, No electrics (crap battery from Argos), three spoilers uplifted by airflow (can happen said my esteemed instructor.......I mean, checker) and denied the use of the control column, I did get a bit stressed & raised my voice, a little, at the brilliant SFO who WAS checking the Runway length at STN. I thought I was keeping the tone humerous when I told him (in a high pitched, squeeky and sweaty voice) not to bother because STN was used by NASA as an ERA for Shuttle crews. In the debrief , I was told not to belittle the FO ! Aaaaaaah, maybe it was Al's brother ! ( Just joking Al). And, STILTON, stay focused. If you are going for Medical review this year, the body is a great self healer. Stay away from the negative thoughts & be positive about passing. Every good wish to you Sir.
slowjet is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 10:13
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: AMS
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Interested in the profession? Would I do it again? sure thing!

Also when looking at friends and acquaintances in the medical, engineering and legal sector. Yes they are home every night/weekend and holiday. But when they are home they often have to finish some work, type some rapports, answer e-mails etc…. They work 2x as hard for half the salary that i receive for my flying job.

Currently flying longhaul for a EU legacy; 2 - 3 flights a month, enough free time to play around at my local aerodrome flying SEP's a lot of free time at home, excellent T&C’s enabling me to have a very decent lifestyle and a good pension at 56, study debt payed off last year.

But would I recommend it to my children?
If one could get a sponsorship or a cadetship with a legacy, then go for it. Unfortunately this is becoming very rare. reality is catching up…
oboema is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 11:15
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Kent
Age: 47
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A lot of people are comparing being a pilot to being an engineer, doctor etc. The thing these professions have in common is that they have a professional body that controls the qualifications required and the skills needed to do the job.

Take civil engineers for example. After the initial degree they would then embark on their professional development with the Institution of civil engineers. This would then lead to becoming chartered. The Institution takes an interest in the development of engineers from student level and the engineers take an interest in the Institution and attend regular meetings and lectures about the industry. The ICE would never allow anything like P2F in the civils industry!

The pilot profession does not have anything serious like this that would look after pilots interests. Balpa is the closest thing but is a union not a professional institution.
Prophead is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 13:04
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Also when looking at friends and acquaintances in the medical, engineering and legal sector. Yes they are home every night/weekend and holiday. But when they are home they often have to finish some work, type some rapports, answer e-mails etc…. They work 2x as hard for half the salary that i receive for my flying job
oboema Really ?!!! I take it you haven't ever had to pay a private consultant's medical bill or use the services of a barrister then ? ........


Aldente is offline  
Old 23rd May 2011, 14:49
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: AMS
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts


@Aldente
To answer your question directly: private consultants & barrister - costs are fully covered by my medical & legal insurances.
On a more serious note:
Regarding the part that they work 2x as hard: last month I was a total of 10 days away from home for work, did 68 hours. Some of my friends in non-aviation sectors do as much in a week.
As for the salary, i was referring to my friends and acquaintances who are, just like me, halfway up the ladder in their professional careers. I'm not comparing with private medical consultants and barristers with big successful private practices.

@Polax52
I had to throw in borrowed money for my flight training (no silver spoon)
I also had my share of LOCO flying before i got a lucky brake at a major.
and I greatly sympathize with my (our) colleagues at EZY and RYR; the erosion of their T&C's will be a precedent for all of us.

Is there a way to stop the erosion and restore the status of our profession? It will be very difficult. People want to go from A to B, as cheap as possible.
Airlines have one important element on their side: the media. Pilots demanding better T&C's, are being put down in the press as "overpaid busdrivers who want even more" The public thinks that airplanes fly by themselves. Try to explain the fact that the new EASA FTL is unacceptable from a pilots point of view and people will laugh at you. Add to this the fact that in a few years time there will be 1000s of pilots coming from schools in India and China. 14 months and a MPL will do the trick. Cheap labour with comparable quality. It happened to the maritime sector 20 years ago and the beancounters are steering aviation in the same direction.
oboema is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.