Pilot wages VS other jobs
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who should be drummed out of the profession for being a dangerous lunatic who shouldn't be in charge of a blunt pencil let alone a mulit-million pound aluminium tube moving at 500mph 6 miles above the ground.
Yeah whatever...
I suggest those of you who are sick of it get out or shut up! Name me another oh so fantastic career that you will never tire of or complain about?
Go on then!
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Errrrrrr. That's my point...
Flying is no different from any other profession. It can be good or bad. The old nonsense that "you should do it for free because it's flying" is what I have a problem with.
Just because flying is fantastic, doesn't mean that you should trade salary with a tube driver.
Flying is no different from any other profession. It can be good or bad. The old nonsense that "you should do it for free because it's flying" is what I have a problem with.
Just because flying is fantastic, doesn't mean that you should trade salary with a tube driver.
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How can you be happy doing a job where you get paid half what other people doing the same job get in the industry?
I know I couldn't. Everytime I saw my pay packet I'd know I was getting diddled and that will have an effect.
If you are happy getting paid less than half what I get for doing a job within the same industry, then sorry, but you are an eejit.
I know I couldn't. Everytime I saw my pay packet I'd know I was getting diddled and that will have an effect.
If you are happy getting paid less than half what I get for doing a job within the same industry, then sorry, but you are an eejit.
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No, its not the seniority system thats distorting the pilot job market, though I do agree that the market is broken and rigged against us at the moment. In the left hand seat It's the fact that you have to either already have or purchase a type rating. in the rhs having commercial aviation experience means you're blocked, as only dirt cheap cadets or pay to fly vermin who make the airline a fortune from the training are of interest.
Last edited by six-sixty; 13th Feb 2011 at 13:51. Reason: Spelling
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I met one of our new Flexi Crew FOs in an orange crew rest room last week. He'd had his line check two months earlier. Now I don't know about you, but I spent at least the first six months post initial line check with a big grin on my face every time I went flying. But not this guy. He ended our chat with "if I knew what I know now I would have never become a pilot".
Says it all really...
Says it all really...
Let me guess, another frustrated wannabe pilot...
I tell you what, once you've been a pilot for 10 years, then you can tell me if you still find it a job that you'd do simply for the passion rather than for a decent salary.
It helps to have passion for any job, but that doesn't stop them being JOBS.
If you go into flying with your eyes blinkered to reality, then you are a fool. Any career has it's good days and bad, but at the end of it all, after a couple of years, you lose the misty eyed outlook of someone looking in from the outside and realise what the job actually entails.
If you are happy to be a Captain on a jet for £45K a year (I'm fairly certain even RYR don't pay that little) then you are a total and utter eejit, who should be drummed out of the profession for being a dangerous lunatic who shouldn't be in charge of a blunt pencil let alone a mulit-million pound aluminium tube moving at 500mph 6 miles above the ground.
I tell you what, once you've been a pilot for 10 years, then you can tell me if you still find it a job that you'd do simply for the passion rather than for a decent salary.
It helps to have passion for any job, but that doesn't stop them being JOBS.
If you go into flying with your eyes blinkered to reality, then you are a fool. Any career has it's good days and bad, but at the end of it all, after a couple of years, you lose the misty eyed outlook of someone looking in from the outside and realise what the job actually entails.
If you are happy to be a Captain on a jet for £45K a year (I'm fairly certain even RYR don't pay that little) then you are a total and utter eejit, who should be drummed out of the profession for being a dangerous lunatic who shouldn't be in charge of a blunt pencil let alone a mulit-million pound aluminium tube moving at 500mph 6 miles above the ground.
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I generally don't start telling professionals in a field I know naff all about what they should be happy with being paid.
I suggest you do the same.
By all means ask questions to increase your understanding, but the second you start to tell people that they are getting paid "well" in a job that you know nothing about, then expect to get a reaction.
Would you like it if I told you that I think you should be happy getting paid £3.20 and a packet of peanuts for your job, without knowing anything about it?
I doubt it.
I suggest you do the same.
By all means ask questions to increase your understanding, but the second you start to tell people that they are getting paid "well" in a job that you know nothing about, then expect to get a reaction.
Would you like it if I told you that I think you should be happy getting paid £3.20 and a packet of peanuts for your job, without knowing anything about it?
I doubt it.
I generally don't start telling professionals in a field I know naff all about what they should be happy with being paid.
I suggest you do the same.
By all means ask questions to increase your understanding, but the second you start to tell people that they are getting paid "well" in a job that you know nothing about, then expect to get a reaction.
Would you like it if I told you that I think you should be happy getting paid £3.20 and a packet of peanuts for your job, without knowing anything about it?
I doubt it.
I suggest you do the same.
By all means ask questions to increase your understanding, but the second you start to tell people that they are getting paid "well" in a job that you know nothing about, then expect to get a reaction.
Would you like it if I told you that I think you should be happy getting paid £3.20 and a packet of peanuts for your job, without knowing anything about it?
I doubt it.
I am not telling YOU that YOU should be happy with that.
No need to try and belittle others.
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Well £45k IS a good salary when compared to the national average. It's what I get (or thereabouts) for being a Personnel Manager for a very large UK retailer.
IMHO it's nowhere near enough to pay for someone with the expertise to keep a £multi-million aircraft and hundreds of people safe from harm.
You may be interested (or not) to know that the store manager of a very large supermarket (think big white sheds with red and blue titles) can earn a six-figure salary as well a great pension and share options.
Not as exciting as flying a jet I'm sure
IMHO it's nowhere near enough to pay for someone with the expertise to keep a £multi-million aircraft and hundreds of people safe from harm.
You may be interested (or not) to know that the store manager of a very large supermarket (think big white sheds with red and blue titles) can earn a six-figure salary as well a great pension and share options.
Not as exciting as flying a jet I'm sure
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Why should we care what others think about pilot salaries? I don't care how much you get paid and even if I did, I know that my opinion is worthless, so I keep schtum.
The vast majority of the world population would be stunned if they earnt even as much as minimum wage in the UK, let alone £45K. However, I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion in the same way that you pointing out that other people in the UK think pilots get paid vast sums, when in reality £45K is not much for an experienced professional in any field. IT, Law and even some engineering professions (though engineers are generally almost criminally underpaid in the UK) get salaries often well above £45K.
It's impossible to draw meaningful comparisons between different professions when it comes to salaries really. Especially if you don't know anything about that particular field anyway.
The vast majority of the world population would be stunned if they earnt even as much as minimum wage in the UK, let alone £45K. However, I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion in the same way that you pointing out that other people in the UK think pilots get paid vast sums, when in reality £45K is not much for an experienced professional in any field. IT, Law and even some engineering professions (though engineers are generally almost criminally underpaid in the UK) get salaries often well above £45K.
It's impossible to draw meaningful comparisons between different professions when it comes to salaries really. Especially if you don't know anything about that particular field anyway.
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Ex wife, regional manager well known supermarket, basic was over 70K plus a nice BMW plus massive staff discount and bonus. Moved to head office, now earns 100K plus. I guess the responsibilty for potentially poisoning half the country justifies the large salary! Not bitter at all
Why should we care what others think about pilot salaries? I don't care how much you get paid
Look, despite what you think of me as a mere civilian I am not completely stupid. I wasn't born yesterday. I am aware that pilot wage amounts were decided many years ago by people far more experienced and intelligent than me. And then there is supply and demand to factor in.
But if Ryanair are anything to go by...
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Within my circle of non-aviation friends and family, all except one earn at least twice as much as I do as a 757 FO. One earns just a little bit more than me; but he's only 22! (I'm 42)
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Guys/Gals - I don't think that anyone would genuinely deny the fact that £45k is a lot of money BUT when talking about salary in the world of Flight Crew, a captain's salary of £45k is just simply wrong !
Think about it - I appreciate that the national average salary may well be £26k or whatever, but remember - in MOST, NOT ALL, there is no requirement to initially invest sums ranging from £40k to £100k (estimate) in order to get the basic right to fly commercially. Therefore, as I said earlier, with the fact as Flight Crew we could end up unemployed through health, accident etc., the salary should reflect this fact. It would pay management at companies like RYR and EZY etc. to remember that whilst they use various facts like oversupply of cadets, global recession and alike to fuel and justify their cost-cutting tactics, as a largely professional bunch that "that gets the job done", when things improve (and they will) it's going to get mighty difficult to crew those empty birds sat rotting on the apron - don't see the profitability in that now ! In essence, they need to look at the long-term effects of what they're doing NOW and redress the balance.
As for all these cadets coming through paying vast sums to LoCo's - are you really furthering your careers ?? Or are you setting up a short-term gain for a long-term loss ?? your choice of course, and passengers will happily fly with you subsidising their ticket cost, and management relish the thought of your coffers entering the company accounts and furnish ever present large performance bonuses.
Think about it - I appreciate that the national average salary may well be £26k or whatever, but remember - in MOST, NOT ALL, there is no requirement to initially invest sums ranging from £40k to £100k (estimate) in order to get the basic right to fly commercially. Therefore, as I said earlier, with the fact as Flight Crew we could end up unemployed through health, accident etc., the salary should reflect this fact. It would pay management at companies like RYR and EZY etc. to remember that whilst they use various facts like oversupply of cadets, global recession and alike to fuel and justify their cost-cutting tactics, as a largely professional bunch that "that gets the job done", when things improve (and they will) it's going to get mighty difficult to crew those empty birds sat rotting on the apron - don't see the profitability in that now ! In essence, they need to look at the long-term effects of what they're doing NOW and redress the balance.
As for all these cadets coming through paying vast sums to LoCo's - are you really furthering your careers ?? Or are you setting up a short-term gain for a long-term loss ?? your choice of course, and passengers will happily fly with you subsidising their ticket cost, and management relish the thought of your coffers entering the company accounts and furnish ever present large performance bonuses.
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I work in the paper industry.We now recycle old newspapers and magazines to produce fresh clean newsprint.Some of the senior ops earn well in excess of £45K.I am not at the top of my grade,but earn well in of excess of £35K.Now you might say big deal.Add to this our shift rota.We work 4 on 6 off. We also get a 10 day break in the spring and autumn plus a 18 day break in the summer.If you add it all up it means we are only on site for 4 months of the year.It all sounds fantastic but I would give it all up to live the dream.Age is the problem.
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This gets my vote for the best post/thought in a long long time!
PPRuNe is jampacked with Pilots deliberating a change of employer. Everybody looking for the holy grail of Aviation. It doesn't exist.
You have to look within yourself for happiness.
You have to look within yourself for happiness.
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previous job involved driving cargoships around the world about 9 months a year. i received about 1700 nett per month to do the job. at night youre left alone in the wheelhouse after a 10h+ shift loading the cargo so its up to you to keep your eyes open and not to hit anything, potential to kill the crew or destroy serveral millions of ship and cargo if yould fail to do so.
got into flying to spend more time with family and friends. social life improved tremendously, i work less then half the hours i used to and get more then twice the money. and this is on a "****ty" F/O brookfield contract at RYR
the days of being pampered in aviation are over, but in reality its a fairly well paid job, even if you consider the initial "investment". 900 hours plus some time to do preflight stuff is not even considered a full time job in many EU countries.
There is a lot to say about RYR, but you got to love 5/4 rosters!
adios!
got into flying to spend more time with family and friends. social life improved tremendously, i work less then half the hours i used to and get more then twice the money. and this is on a "****ty" F/O brookfield contract at RYR
the days of being pampered in aviation are over, but in reality its a fairly well paid job, even if you consider the initial "investment". 900 hours plus some time to do preflight stuff is not even considered a full time job in many EU countries.
There is a lot to say about RYR, but you got to love 5/4 rosters!
adios!
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My two cents (one actually).
A few days ago, the reason that pilots expect to be paid a respectable salary, above the average, were made extremely clear by tragic events very close to home for many of us.
As a pilot, I feel that no other explanation is needed as to why I expect to be well paid and to therefore be as free of monetary stresses as is possible. Our job carries enough risks and sacrifices to warrant our monetary demands, within reason, as we are expected to be on top of our game every minute that we are in work. Failure to be can lead to tragic consequences (I am not implying any professional neglect on the crew of BPS 7100).
Similar responsibilities are difficult to find in other jobs and careers and as such it is difficult to find a point of reference in other sectors of industry. But by way of example, I flew a double a few days ago and flew a total of 450 passengers to and from UK cities in less than 12 hours. If full, the aeroplane could have carried closer to 700 passengers over the 4 sectors. That is a lot of responsibility for 2 people irrelevant of age or experience.
Not many people earning the national average (who tend to sit in the back and assume that it'll just be another boring flight) could even be made to understand this point. We, as flight crews, engineers and Air traffic Controllers are jointly and primarily responsible for make flying a boring mode of transport.
A few days ago, the reason that pilots expect to be paid a respectable salary, above the average, were made extremely clear by tragic events very close to home for many of us.
As a pilot, I feel that no other explanation is needed as to why I expect to be well paid and to therefore be as free of monetary stresses as is possible. Our job carries enough risks and sacrifices to warrant our monetary demands, within reason, as we are expected to be on top of our game every minute that we are in work. Failure to be can lead to tragic consequences (I am not implying any professional neglect on the crew of BPS 7100).
Similar responsibilities are difficult to find in other jobs and careers and as such it is difficult to find a point of reference in other sectors of industry. But by way of example, I flew a double a few days ago and flew a total of 450 passengers to and from UK cities in less than 12 hours. If full, the aeroplane could have carried closer to 700 passengers over the 4 sectors. That is a lot of responsibility for 2 people irrelevant of age or experience.
Not many people earning the national average (who tend to sit in the back and assume that it'll just be another boring flight) could even be made to understand this point. We, as flight crews, engineers and Air traffic Controllers are jointly and primarily responsible for make flying a boring mode of transport.
Last edited by 170to5; 13th Feb 2011 at 20:59.