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Stan,
I completely understand where you are coming from. Granted we should not have to pay for a type rating, we should be able to have a steady income, and all that without getting into debt first.
But the problem is when it comes to principles versus reality, reality usually wins. And unfortunately for me, ending the sixth year of my young carreer, and many other young pilots this is/was the reality when we got into aviation.
Coming from a small country with no national carrier. Ryanair was the best option at that time. Frankly speaking, it was the only option. So I, and along with me many others, swallowed the bitter pill. Because any job and thus any income still beats sitting around at home with no income at all.
Spandex,
You're right in your convictions. And believe you me I wish our industry still worked the way you describe it. But as you say there's no point living in the past.
Not pointing this comment at you specifically Spandex. But how fair is it really to pick on people trying to make the best of a situation that isn't even of their own making. A lot of older pilots love to reminisce about the "old" days. Well, they were there at the very beginning when the rock started rolling down the hill. When I look at the situation now, I can only conclude they did nothing at all to stop it early on.
edit: The reason why I'm still working for Ryanair is because I'm one of the lucky few who managed to secure a base position within driving distance of my actual home. I understand my situation is the exception rather than the rule, and thus all the comments that I make should be viewed in that light.
I completely understand where you are coming from. Granted we should not have to pay for a type rating, we should be able to have a steady income, and all that without getting into debt first.
But the problem is when it comes to principles versus reality, reality usually wins. And unfortunately for me, ending the sixth year of my young carreer, and many other young pilots this is/was the reality when we got into aviation.
Coming from a small country with no national carrier. Ryanair was the best option at that time. Frankly speaking, it was the only option. So I, and along with me many others, swallowed the bitter pill. Because any job and thus any income still beats sitting around at home with no income at all.
Spandex,
You're right in your convictions. And believe you me I wish our industry still worked the way you describe it. But as you say there's no point living in the past.
Not pointing this comment at you specifically Spandex. But how fair is it really to pick on people trying to make the best of a situation that isn't even of their own making. A lot of older pilots love to reminisce about the "old" days. Well, they were there at the very beginning when the rock started rolling down the hill. When I look at the situation now, I can only conclude they did nothing at all to stop it early on.
edit: The reason why I'm still working for Ryanair is because I'm one of the lucky few who managed to secure a base position within driving distance of my actual home. I understand my situation is the exception rather than the rule, and thus all the comments that I make should be viewed in that light.
Last edited by d105; 20th Dec 2010 at 15:54.
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-15, yes I know, like I've said before I'm not Ryanair bashing. I'm not taking up an anti Ryanair stance. We just happen to be having this discussion on a Ryanair thread.
Yes it would be great if nobody had to pay for a job but it's the very fact that people do pay for a job which is allowing this sort of con to flourish!
The next airline to take it on board will do so having seen the amount of bright, young pilots banging on O'Leary's do with their thirty grand.
Etcetera...
Yes it would be great if nobody had to pay for a job but it's the very fact that people do pay for a job which is allowing this sort of con to flourish!
The next airline to take it on board will do so having seen the amount of bright, young pilots banging on O'Leary's do with their thirty grand.
Etcetera...
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Spandex Masher, et al.,
I have previously given that question a great deal of thinking when it comes to principle vs. reality. In my point of view, no, I would not pay for another type rating, at least not up front, perhaps in the form of a training bond.
With 500 and some hours mainly SE prop, if I was in charge of recruiting, I cannot say that I would have hired myself even, spent tens of thousands of EUR/GBP to train myself and then see how I would have turned out. With a couple or thousands of hours on the 737, good sim sessions and line checks, I believe that I have proven that I´m up for the challenge. And since I now meet the requirement for airlines that do not charge directly for a type rating, I do not see the need for future type rating costs. Some draw the line between initial training and a TR. I have drawn the line after my first TR.
I have previously given that question a great deal of thinking when it comes to principle vs. reality. In my point of view, no, I would not pay for another type rating, at least not up front, perhaps in the form of a training bond.
With 500 and some hours mainly SE prop, if I was in charge of recruiting, I cannot say that I would have hired myself even, spent tens of thousands of EUR/GBP to train myself and then see how I would have turned out. With a couple or thousands of hours on the 737, good sim sessions and line checks, I believe that I have proven that I´m up for the challenge. And since I now meet the requirement for airlines that do not charge directly for a type rating, I do not see the need for future type rating costs. Some draw the line between initial training and a TR. I have drawn the line after my first TR.
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Lospilotos, you'll have to humour me now.
The future, a question (some parallels with todays industry):
- No airline is recruiting pilots with your TR, they sold all the TRs they can and are now bloated with pilots most of whom are on standby.
- The rot has set in and every other airline in existence now requires that you pay for a TR, it is the only way in the door. Hell, why not? We make more money that way.
- You can't stay where you are because you too are on twelve months of solid standby and are not getting any cash in the bank.
What do you do?
- Leave the industry - I ain't paying for another TR - don't look back at your lost 'investment'.
- Stay where you are, untenable, more lost investment.
- Pay for another TR, it's the only way in, more 'investment' to lose.
Ok, I am exaggerating what I think will happen but you can't deny that it could/will happen if the current trend remains unchecked.
The future, a question (some parallels with todays industry):
- No airline is recruiting pilots with your TR, they sold all the TRs they can and are now bloated with pilots most of whom are on standby.
- The rot has set in and every other airline in existence now requires that you pay for a TR, it is the only way in the door. Hell, why not? We make more money that way.
- You can't stay where you are because you too are on twelve months of solid standby and are not getting any cash in the bank.
What do you do?
- Leave the industry - I ain't paying for another TR - don't look back at your lost 'investment'.
- Stay where you are, untenable, more lost investment.
- Pay for another TR, it's the only way in, more 'investment' to lose.
Ok, I am exaggerating what I think will happen but you can't deny that it could/will happen if the current trend remains unchecked.
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Sorry to hear about the demise in your pay and conditions . I left the company because people like yourself prostituted yourself to the company resulting in my terms and conditions being hacked .I have no regrets and I am glad I made the move,:
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Spandex,
I think your looking at this from the wrong end, consider the new guys who have very little leverage entering this industry. It should really be the collective on the other side that are protecting the industry from employing such practises. As a workforce they can have a say if they choose to do so, such as the BMI/EZY guys when that dreadful p2f scheme was implemented. Those guys put a stop to that. If they hadn't then who knows, but I suspect the situation for guys looking for employment would be worse.
The older ones that complain about this are generally the ones that should have been doing something instead of nothing when airlines were testing the waters. Just my opinion and I had to pay for my type as well. I don't regret it as I was able to break into this industry. Will I consider paying a type again? I very much doubt it. I've already turned down a possible position based on that very requirement. Citing those reasons.
I think your looking at this from the wrong end, consider the new guys who have very little leverage entering this industry. It should really be the collective on the other side that are protecting the industry from employing such practises. As a workforce they can have a say if they choose to do so, such as the BMI/EZY guys when that dreadful p2f scheme was implemented. Those guys put a stop to that. If they hadn't then who knows, but I suspect the situation for guys looking for employment would be worse.
The older ones that complain about this are generally the ones that should have been doing something instead of nothing when airlines were testing the waters. Just my opinion and I had to pay for my type as well. I don't regret it as I was able to break into this industry. Will I consider paying a type again? I very much doubt it. I've already turned down a possible position based on that very requirement. Citing those reasons.
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Now, listen carefully: STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought we were talking about standby periods, which are unpaid.
Buying a TR and such practices should not be linked. And I must say that I've been fortunate enough to never pay for a rating.
RYR take advantage of people on BRK contracts. I sadly believe that paying for a rating is here to stay. After all, it's been going on for 20 years.
What's new is that people buy a rating on the basis of a ZERO hours contract and then sit around waiting for the phone to ring in the winter months. Lunacy.
Go skiing. Oops, can't do that, spent the cash........
..... Don't do it!!! Keep the money in the bank.
As LSM says, there is a surplus of qualified B737 FO's available.
(Before anyone points it out, I'm a Captain for an Eastern European pink A320 airline. But ALL our employees AND contractors have a basic wage. No flying? FO: 2000€ a month. Captain: 4000€ a month. However, ALL our pilots do at least 50 hours a month even in November. Reality is that everyone still has an income.)
I thought we were talking about standby periods, which are unpaid.
Buying a TR and such practices should not be linked. And I must say that I've been fortunate enough to never pay for a rating.
RYR take advantage of people on BRK contracts. I sadly believe that paying for a rating is here to stay. After all, it's been going on for 20 years.
What's new is that people buy a rating on the basis of a ZERO hours contract and then sit around waiting for the phone to ring in the winter months. Lunacy.
Go skiing. Oops, can't do that, spent the cash........
..... Don't do it!!! Keep the money in the bank.
As LSM says, there is a surplus of qualified B737 FO's available.
(Before anyone points it out, I'm a Captain for an Eastern European pink A320 airline. But ALL our employees AND contractors have a basic wage. No flying? FO: 2000€ a month. Captain: 4000€ a month. However, ALL our pilots do at least 50 hours a month even in November. Reality is that everyone still has an income.)
Last edited by stansdead; 20th Dec 2010 at 18:08.
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Well lets just look at it from both sides.
Yes, I agree, those who could have tried to prevent it should have done. No doubt about that in my mind.
Those that actually paid for it shouldn't have done.
Either of those actions would have prevented the blooming of the rot. Fair enough?
Now, on the first point, what are the collective doing about it these days? The collective that counts some who paid for a TR amongst it's numbers. Diddly squat, that's what. Why?
You see, it's a very cynical point of view to claim that we should have done something to prevent it when you are not doing anything to stop it continuing now!
Yes, I agree, those who could have tried to prevent it should have done. No doubt about that in my mind.
Those that actually paid for it shouldn't have done.
Either of those actions would have prevented the blooming of the rot. Fair enough?
Now, on the first point, what are the collective doing about it these days? The collective that counts some who paid for a TR amongst it's numbers. Diddly squat, that's what. Why?
You see, it's a very cynical point of view to claim that we should have done something to prevent it when you are not doing anything to stop it continuing now!
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Spandex,
You can't say those examples have equal responsibility. The rot should've been stopped by the workforce the very moment it began. That's where the true responsibility lies.
You seem to be happy to ignore the fact that people coming out of training, having paid for their initial training as well, need to have an income. Uncertain, limited or few hours are still hours. Like I said before, people do what they need to do in order to survive. Anything is better than sitting at home, with no income at all, on basis of principle.
If anything is cynical, it's blaming the current youngest generation of pilots for problems the older generation could've prevented in the first place. But because they didn't, by now those practices have spread wide and far. If you ask me, should Ryanair go bankrupt tomorrow, any number of other airlines would try exactly the same tactics.
Now if the Irish government would grow some f'ing balls and actually force union recognition onto Ryanair, along with a serious investigation into the social dumping that is Brookfield... Things might actually change a bit.
As for the collective you talk about Spandex. Things have actually been tried. About 5 years ago there was the famous "uprising" of the Dublin pilots, who at the time were unhappy with their T&C's. If I remember correctly they actually took Ryanair to court. The result was zero. Except for the fact that nearly none of the FO's involved made it to captain, and of the captains involved practically all have disappeared from the company.
The best an individual can do is leave. Something which I plan to do myself if I get a better deal somewhere. Will I be bitter towards the guy who takes my place? No. because I know what position he is in and what he needs to endure. So I won't blame him for keeping the Ryanair machine going. Because he, like me and all my friend, does what he needs to do.
With due respect Spandex, as I believe you're certainly worthy of that even based on your seniority in the industry alone, I don't think you'll ever fully get what I'm saying. Because you've never been in the situation many youngsters find themselves in today. I'm not sure you're able to fully relate.
I'm not attacking you personally with that by the way.
You can't say those examples have equal responsibility. The rot should've been stopped by the workforce the very moment it began. That's where the true responsibility lies.
You seem to be happy to ignore the fact that people coming out of training, having paid for their initial training as well, need to have an income. Uncertain, limited or few hours are still hours. Like I said before, people do what they need to do in order to survive. Anything is better than sitting at home, with no income at all, on basis of principle.
If anything is cynical, it's blaming the current youngest generation of pilots for problems the older generation could've prevented in the first place. But because they didn't, by now those practices have spread wide and far. If you ask me, should Ryanair go bankrupt tomorrow, any number of other airlines would try exactly the same tactics.
Now if the Irish government would grow some f'ing balls and actually force union recognition onto Ryanair, along with a serious investigation into the social dumping that is Brookfield... Things might actually change a bit.
As for the collective you talk about Spandex. Things have actually been tried. About 5 years ago there was the famous "uprising" of the Dublin pilots, who at the time were unhappy with their T&C's. If I remember correctly they actually took Ryanair to court. The result was zero. Except for the fact that nearly none of the FO's involved made it to captain, and of the captains involved practically all have disappeared from the company.
The best an individual can do is leave. Something which I plan to do myself if I get a better deal somewhere. Will I be bitter towards the guy who takes my place? No. because I know what position he is in and what he needs to endure. So I won't blame him for keeping the Ryanair machine going. Because he, like me and all my friend, does what he needs to do.
With due respect Spandex, as I believe you're certainly worthy of that even based on your seniority in the industry alone, I don't think you'll ever fully get what I'm saying. Because you've never been in the situation many youngsters find themselves in today. I'm not sure you're able to fully relate.
I'm not attacking you personally with that by the way.
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D105
D105,
With due respect to you and everyone else, no-one should "find themselves" in £100,000 debt in order to attain a job.
Actually, it's not even a job. It's a zero hours contract. Worthless. Less than worthless in fact. It's lunacy.
Temporary Christmas shelf stackers are quite possibly making more, bearing in mind lack of debt servicing, in a shop this year than some BRK crew.
Until people realise this, the game is up.
With due respect to you and everyone else, no-one should "find themselves" in £100,000 debt in order to attain a job.
Actually, it's not even a job. It's a zero hours contract. Worthless. Less than worthless in fact. It's lunacy.
Temporary Christmas shelf stackers are quite possibly making more, bearing in mind lack of debt servicing, in a shop this year than some BRK crew.
Until people realise this, the game is up.
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Nothing personal taken, or given.
Believe me I understand their position. I also understand how that position has been literally forced upon them.
We can argue all day about who is to blame for this situation, the bottom line is that everyone is to blame. Those who brought these schemes into being, those who did nothing to stop them happening (although you indicate that efforts to stop them have since failed) and those that partook in them.
I'm not talking about an action against an individual airline as you've mentioned but a complete cessation of these pathetic contracts and deals.
They only exist now because they keep getting fed. Yes they should have been stopped before they started but that isn't the only way to skin a cat. Chop it's head off, now!
Believe me I understand their position. I also understand how that position has been literally forced upon them.
We can argue all day about who is to blame for this situation, the bottom line is that everyone is to blame. Those who brought these schemes into being, those who did nothing to stop them happening (although you indicate that efforts to stop them have since failed) and those that partook in them.
I'm not talking about an action against an individual airline as you've mentioned but a complete cessation of these pathetic contracts and deals.
They only exist now because they keep getting fed. Yes they should have been stopped before they started but that isn't the only way to skin a cat. Chop it's head off, now!
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McBruce, seriously, down to 5/2? WTF. The canaries are a serious commute back to the UK, already unworkable on a 5/3, if every other week is going to be a 5/2 this is going to reinforce saying "no" to the command upgrade which is what FR are relying on to keep themselves with sufficient captains. Its going to be an interesting summer season
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That cant be right, if its 5/2 5/3 and your doing routes out of there that are 3-4 hour sectors you will go out of hours very quickly, or have tons on standbys.
Tenerife does sound appealing, and I mean to live there and not commute, could go home the odd time on the 5/3 by swapping a day so making it 5/4 but really just base there full time.
Tenerife does sound appealing, and I mean to live there and not commute, could go home the odd time on the 5/3 by swapping a day so making it 5/4 but really just base there full time.
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F14. "Good roster, sleeping in your own bed every night." I think you'll find that many crews do not live where they work and thus are not in their own bed every night. From reading threads over the past year it would seem that many spend their 'days off' commuting to get to their own bed for only 2 or even 1 night. It's been told that some F/O's have forgone command to stay at home rather than be posted to the ends of Europe on 5/3 and precipitate family breakdowns. It's also been reported that base swaps to be at home for both parties is mostly rejected. I'm sure the 'own bed' propoganda covers only 50% at most. Perhaps those on the inside can correct me.
I still find it hard to understand the concept of being self-employed, not allowed to work for anyone else, no guarantee of work/income, having to give notice to leave and being compelled to be on duty for no pay. Extraordinary. Paying for your job is one thing; working for no pay is another entirely. And, how can you give notice to someone who does not employ and does not guarantee you work? Does RYR offer the same in return?
I still find it hard to understand the concept of being self-employed, not allowed to work for anyone else, no guarantee of work/income, having to give notice to leave and being compelled to be on duty for no pay. Extraordinary. Paying for your job is one thing; working for no pay is another entirely. And, how can you give notice to someone who does not employ and does not guarantee you work? Does RYR offer the same in return?
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What is it with you lot? 10 pages worth of the pitfalls with the Brookfield contract within Ryanair. Same issues expressed around this time every year, each year they become more and more exacerbated. And everybody still argues about it.
1. No one moans in the summer when we are doing 80-90 hrs per month. If anything I hear people complaining that they are bollexed and can't get any time off!
2. No one moans when they first get taken on as a cadet, whizz through line training and fly their little asses off at the expense of more expensive FOs.
3. The UK and Irish operation has become a seasonal one at best. With high tax rates, stagnated growth, vast competition and the recession; I can't see it changing unfortunately. Yet what percentage of the airline is/wants to be based here?
4. The Brookfield Contract is here to stay. MOL is a regular Houdini and will magic his way out of anything to suit his purpose. The current Ryanair contract stands at €28000 basic and half sector pay for FOs. It would be a ****e side less if the powers that be turned round and told Ryanair to employ all their pilots directly. Actually, what you would probably see is around a quarter to a third of FOs being laid off completely and the rest being placed on seasonal contracts a la Jet2.
5. People now joining seem to have no expectation. I have mixed emotions on this one. For one I am glad that people have a sense of reality however a cadet that I spoke to just yesterday was only too prepared to be sent to any outpost whatsoever and perfectly accepted that he may be looking at a lengthy spell in the right hand seat. He was only 2 minutes in the company and he was admitting that he would probably be gone in 3 to 4 years anyway. Is this the type of candidate Ryanair now want? - I willing to bet so!
6. EMT is now a TRTO and has been for some time. Nice little business which will continue to do very well, even after the last 737-800 rolls out of Seattle, the growth ends and MOL heads for the hills after cashing in his remaining shares!
1. No one moans in the summer when we are doing 80-90 hrs per month. If anything I hear people complaining that they are bollexed and can't get any time off!
2. No one moans when they first get taken on as a cadet, whizz through line training and fly their little asses off at the expense of more expensive FOs.
3. The UK and Irish operation has become a seasonal one at best. With high tax rates, stagnated growth, vast competition and the recession; I can't see it changing unfortunately. Yet what percentage of the airline is/wants to be based here?
4. The Brookfield Contract is here to stay. MOL is a regular Houdini and will magic his way out of anything to suit his purpose. The current Ryanair contract stands at €28000 basic and half sector pay for FOs. It would be a ****e side less if the powers that be turned round and told Ryanair to employ all their pilots directly. Actually, what you would probably see is around a quarter to a third of FOs being laid off completely and the rest being placed on seasonal contracts a la Jet2.
5. People now joining seem to have no expectation. I have mixed emotions on this one. For one I am glad that people have a sense of reality however a cadet that I spoke to just yesterday was only too prepared to be sent to any outpost whatsoever and perfectly accepted that he may be looking at a lengthy spell in the right hand seat. He was only 2 minutes in the company and he was admitting that he would probably be gone in 3 to 4 years anyway. Is this the type of candidate Ryanair now want? - I willing to bet so!
6. EMT is now a TRTO and has been for some time. Nice little business which will continue to do very well, even after the last 737-800 rolls out of Seattle, the growth ends and MOL heads for the hills after cashing in his remaining shares!
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MugaBELLEW was in the STN crewroom on Tue before 6am pressing flesh. I asked him and he told me:-
1. All the new bases will be on Apr-Oct 5/4 roster and Nov-Mar 5/3 roster. That includes the Canaries. Apparently all places are filled now for the islands.
2. Limited leave all Dec 2010 due xmas ops. Very few on month off which will affect Dec hours. Many off in Jan on month off and unpaid leave which should help hours for all.
3. No more OCC courses. Anyone in FR knows where to call him in STN and most have his mobile number!
1. All the new bases will be on Apr-Oct 5/4 roster and Nov-Mar 5/3 roster. That includes the Canaries. Apparently all places are filled now for the islands.
2. Limited leave all Dec 2010 due xmas ops. Very few on month off which will affect Dec hours. Many off in Jan on month off and unpaid leave which should help hours for all.
3. No more OCC courses. Anyone in FR knows where to call him in STN and most have his mobile number!
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Apr-Oct 5/4 roster and Nov-Mar 5/3 roster
The other way round maybe?
I think that is the way but don't forget that you will only be granted leave during winter months so in effect you'll be working on a 5/3 pretty much all the time. So that is our nice roster gone.
Did you forget to ask him about the new nice contract for the Canaries. Massive cuts for everyone, or did he fogot to mention that.
New Ryanair deal: crap roster + no money and not benefits whatsoever.
oh!! I think he also forgot to mention that soon all bases will follow.
The other way round maybe?
I think that is the way but don't forget that you will only be granted leave during winter months so in effect you'll be working on a 5/3 pretty much all the time. So that is our nice roster gone.
Did you forget to ask him about the new nice contract for the Canaries. Massive cuts for everyone, or did he fogot to mention that.
New Ryanair deal: crap roster + no money and not benefits whatsoever.
oh!! I think he also forgot to mention that soon all bases will follow.