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BALPA - UK facing shortage of pilots

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BALPA - UK facing shortage of pilots

Old 5th Nov 2010, 02:03
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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It isn't rocket science is it.

Boom and bust and all the knock on effects are still with us which seems to be every 8 years in varying degrees.

Boom. Many students being trained, heaps of jobs. Bust. Very few being trained, very few jobs. Always has been since I have been in aviation.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 05:00
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I Can't Believe It!!!!!!

I see that in the UK, as in other places, FTOs are the MAFIA ruling in the aviation industry.

Want to know why?

Because as in other places, the UKs pilot association, BALPA, is so worried about the poor, poor FTOs who are going to go broke because there are fewer and fewer crazy young lads ready to spent 100 K pounds for nothing in return.

Poor, poor FTOs What are they going to dooooo?

Here comes BALPA and says: let's reduce training taxes! or....
there will be a pilot shortage!


Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh
Pilot shortage????

When did BALPA sold its sould to devil?

What they have to say iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis:



1st SELECTION

2nd TRAINING

3rd RECRUITING



THE COST OF TRAINING CAN BE SHARED AND/OR BONDED.
THERE WOULD NEVER BE SHORTAGE OF PILOTS
THERE WOULD NEVER BE OVERSATURARION OF PILOTS


BALPA should lobby to change regulations so that TRs can't be done self sponsored and ban pay to fly.

Pilot shortages never occur. Only shortages of type rated experienced pilots, which is quite a different thing.

The goddamned FTOS are killing us!!
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 07:08
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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You see what happens when you do that? There is now no job for the newly qualified pilot because the air taxi job he could have had is still being filled by the air taxi pilot who can't move on to a turbo prop because the turbo prop job he could have had is still being filled by a turbo prop pilot who can't move on to a big shiny jet because people like you have paid to jump the queue
Well said, here-in you have nailed the problem on the head

What are you going to do about that BALPA???? Well we all know the answer already..............
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 08:17
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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BALPA should lobby to change regulations so that TRs can't be done self sponsored and ban pay to fly.
or.. now here's a thought...

if a carrier doesnt want to pay up front and bond a new hire, then a TR from any JAA(EASA) approved training provider be accepted, not only one by a specific selected provider (or internal one) that charges three times the market rate to the trainee.

Ergo: it can be considered that *if* an airline wont accept a TR from a JAA(EASA) authorised facility, then the carrier is in no uncertain terms expressing that it has no faith the regulator's authority and approvals. which then doesn't say much for thier own AOC.

that is a simple piece of action that would start to restrict the damage to the industry.

BALPA. way behind the power curve.

.. horse bolted gate..
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 08:34
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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BALPA carries quite a bit of weight in the media, so it is significant in that "there must be a looming shortfall" if BALPA say so. I think a global shortfall might well be in the offing given expansion plans already announced by mid-east and asian carriers. This could be good news for all, if they have to ratchet up their T&Cs to get suitably qualified candidates from the West to apply. This could result in a response by Western airlines to retain their staff, by improving pay over here.

My first full recessionary cycle in the airline industry, but from what I am hearing over at BA, their assessment is for 6 clear years of profits, (with the usual warnings applied). Many people expect BA to continue to recruit in the next financial year, so things look much more optimistic now than they have for a long time. Toss in the recent changes to tuition fees which could easily result in grads struggling with 70K debts on leaving university and all of a sudden the 100K one-stop route to a pilot qual starts to look like pretty good value.

Maybe BALPA are playing a canny game, by underpinning current pay negotiations! Who knows..?

Last edited by nigegilb; 5th Nov 2010 at 08:54.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 11:20
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher
If it wasn't for the greedy "I want one and I want it now" spoilt brats of today none of this would be happening.
I'm not trying to exonerate 'em; they are quite guilty yet it's not their fault only. There were always those who wanted to jump the queue yet in the days of yore, they couldn't. I remember a couple of years ago the collective bemusement in my outfit when we first got the word that the ZFT TRed guy would be joining us. We wondered how can anyone get chopped between successful sim and base training and concluded it was some poor soul whose company went bust just at the wrong time. Then it turned out he paid for his TR @ Toulouse. Shock and awe was a bit subdued when we learnt he was closely related to famous politician. We wondered where was the world going to, when sufficiently rich & famous could buy themselves TR.

A few years later, we know.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 11:38
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Britain Faces Pilot Shortage

According to the British Airline Pilots' Association the number of people learning to fly commercial aircraft is falling.

"Once young people could enter the profession through airline sponsors'' said Captain Mark Searle, BALPA Chairman. "But now they have to fund their own initial training which can cost up to £100,000.''



Up until the turn of the millennium, many airlines used to sponsor cadets who wanted to enter the industry. Gradually as a result of cost cutting this was stopped, with British Airways being the last to drop its programme in the aftermath of September 11.
However airlines did still pick up the cost of the additional licence pilots needed to operate individual aircraft, such as a Boeing 737.
But this has ceased within the last five years, leaving cadets facing a further bill of at least £25,000.
A top-earning pilot, at the controls of a Boeing 747, can expect to earn £110,000 a year, while a junior recruit on a smaller plane would start at around £25,000. The union says the industry average is around £60,000.
BALPA says it has been contacted by potential pilots who have decided against joining the industry because of the cost of training. Flying schools have also told the union that they have noticed a drop in applications.
"This is plain wrong,'' said Captain Searle. 'These young pilots are desperate for a job and are now being charged by airlines to fly fare paying passengers. Airlines should be ashamed.''
Pilots retire at 65. According to the aircraft manufacturer, Boeing, aviation will need 448,000 new recruits over the next 20 years, just to replace those who have left the industry.
In the short term there is a plentiful supply of pilots, because of the number who were laid off during the recession. But if the dramatic recovery of aviation in recent months continues, the industry could find itself short of pilots by the middle of the decade.
However BALPA's analysis was challenged by Simon Buck, chief executive of the British Air Transport Association.
“In the current economic climate many airlines can no longer offer direct sponsorship but, if pilot recruitment becomes a significant problem for UK airlines in the future, this policy may need to be reviewed," he said. "Currently we are unaware of UK airlines experiencing difficulties in recruiting pilots.”
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 12:51
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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BALPA with some of the FTO's who are dis-advantaged compared to CTC and Oxford should start a well advertised campaign to encourge those not to pay for type ratings, pay to fly or positions that dont pay salaries during line training etc or something similar that is constructive.

BALPA are fully aware of the issues and its often discussed, however its difficult for them to find something to bargain perhaps in this area.

Its not right to have large amounts of personal debts / liabilities instead of something fair with airline operators. I honestly thought the recession would have stopped people from finding extra borrowing to pay for type ratings or poor contract positions with some of those low cost operators. Another issue is how people live whilst doing a type rating / line training and the extra borrowing with hardly any proper income, if any at all.

Obviously Oxford / CTC would not perhaps agree having contracts or associations with operators. At the end of the day, Oxfords product which was integrated courses of good quality with high promise of a proper job with good terms has gone and having to pay for it.

The other issue is the recruitment advertising, under equal opportunities, BALPA's legal department should be looking into this too and see if anything could be done in the UK. Its not fair for companies such as CTC or whomever to directly send pilots into an airline via contracts, when obviously that airline should have advertised for all to apply meeting a fair requirement. This would not happen in other industries as it would unfair or possibly illegal.

I just dont understand why people do not group together and say NO to airlines regarding such issues and poor T&C's with BALPA and FTO's via a well advertised campaign and give it a go. It may eventually even help those experienced pilots with employment T&C in the long term too.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 14:55
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Upfront; I'm not an expert..........currently training for my PPL for fun. Could it concur that the industry becomes dominated by (wealthy) boys/girls that have had enough money to pay for their training?

Is it possible that this scenario could result in cockpits being full of people that are not necessarily the "best fit" for the job? The strict recruitment policies for cadets in the past ensured the "right" person was selected for training.

It was asked elsewhere on this forum " How many pilots that begin training actually make a career out out of it?, to which the answer was " those with the most money, 'cos they can keep repeating modules until they eventually pass".

That doesn't inspire me I have to say, although if I had 100K I would probably have a go myself.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 16:12
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with most of what is being said here about the cost of training for new pilots. But one of the biggest reasons for shortages of pilots is the lack of commonality between licensing jusrisdictions i.e. FAA and EASA.

It's a nonsense and the Unions would be better off forming large, co-ordinated pressure groups to have a licensing standard accepted for worldwide common licensing rather than parochially protecting their own parishoners.

Then, of course, we would have a glut of pilots on the market and rates of pay - already depressed - would be pushed even lower, sigh.
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 16:58
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Angry Idiots!

It shows once again what bunch of complete dufuses BALPA are!

Instead of trying to contain the ever increasing flood of pilots eroding T&C's in the industry, BALPA are prostituting themselves to the highest bidder: the airline management! Get ready for 'BALPA endorsed' slavery P4T and P2F schemes in the future!

With friends like BALPA, who needs enemies?
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Old 5th Nov 2010, 22:32
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Snoop P4R p2F

What amazes me, is why do these rich kids want to fly when there is no longer any money in it?

I love flying, so I am doing everything at my own pace and will not get upset about not getting a jet job, an FI at my local club would be excellent, as it will keep me flying and may be even some income can made out of it.
I doubt I would be giving up my non-flying job any time soon.

Unfortunately the world now a days is driven by greedy, dollars in the eyes people, who only care about grabbing a couch now, and to hell with the future.

Lots of guiltys there, never one.

But don't worry, this situation will resolve itself. Currently industry is fed by already trained laid off with in last two years pilots, once they run out, airlines will start scratching their heads...oops what just happened, can't get pilots who can fly....
May be a repeat of a bufflo (god forbid) crash should send regulators and the industry into a spiral dive, and at the end there are two outcomes possible.

One : airlines will start training there own pilots and tie them to jobs for 5+ years with little pay.
Or industry will go into meltdown and you won't see anymore british pilots at all.

Anyway it's just my opinion.
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 09:36
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Rich kids? Spoilt Brats?
You people, especially spandex masher, really know how to generalise don't you?
When finishing an Integrated course, most of these cadets are faced with almost no option in where they go. If Flybe are recruiting, which more often than not, they aren't, the terms and conditions are so poor as to make it almost pointless to get a job there. I worked my arse of after my training to get a job and I would have taken one anywhere including as an FI or air taxi pilot or whatever - but these jobs in light aircraft and turboprops simply don't exist. So what's left? Ryanair or Easyjet.
And if you cast your minds back BA cadet pilots were finding themselves in the RHS of a 707 in their first job way back in the 70s. No-one seemed to mind that did they?
Don't blame individuals by hurling ignorant personal abuse at them - they are dealing with a difficult situation in the best way they can. No-one wants to fork out tens of thousands of pounds (in my case a lot of money that I worked my arse off to earn) for more training. The options are simple - take that job and pay for a TR or start filling in the Job Seeker's Allowance form to keep Lord Spandex sweet. The utterly ineffective BALPA have done nothing to stop this and neither have other pilots - so please don't blame newbies for something that is beyond their control. Lord spandex masher - perhaps you could have done more to stop it? I don't know, maybe you did. But perhaps its better to find out the facts before you lump everyone together as spoiled brats. Remember how much you wanted to be a pilot when you were young?
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 09:49
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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When finishing an Integrated course, most of these cadets are faced with almost no option in where they go. If Flybe are recruiting, which more often than not, they aren't, the terms and conditions are so poor as to make it almost pointless to get a job there.
D O Guerrero,

Couple that with the only realistic available channels to those coming out of an integrated program are those channels which *that* FTO is affiliated with; channels that open to integrated students in other FTOs are simply not open.
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 09:54
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And if you cast your minds back BA cadet pilots were finding themselves in the RHS of a 707 in their first job way back in the 70s. No-one seemed to mind that did they?
D O Guerrero, Yes that's true - I was one of them LOL

But things were very different then. Often you were part of 4/5 man crew on the flightdeck. We joined as Second Officers and, after the type rating, much of the line flying was observing from the jump seat and assisting with such tasks as getting the weather and/or occupying a flight deck seat whilst the Senior First Officer (who also had a Flight Navigators Licence) did the navigating across the pond. The Captain and SFO had eons of experience and were able to demonstrate a high professional standard. This one also picked up almost through osmosis.

I have touched on this on other threads but what we need, in my opinion, are centres of excellence for basic flying training along the lines of Hamble in the 1960/1970s. Cadets were selected after a rigorous selection procedure and the integrated course of ground, flying and simulator training was second to none. They were training and selecting future airline Captains (not just "pilots") and the course was geared accordingly. It wasn't just a question of making the minimum statutory requirements - the ethos was one of constant and never ending improvement.

Now I am not saying that some of this doesn't go on at the current FTOs but, I think you might agree, if someone turns up with the requisite cash then not many FTOs will turn down the business even if they think the person concerned might not be ideal airline material. Equally if the airlines need pilots then most will accept someone who turns up with a shiny CPL/IR in his hand if thats all thats out there.

In summary, I don't think the comparison between the situation in the 1960s/1970s to the current situation is a valid one.
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 10:03
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I find the use of the term "rich kids" similarly insulting. UK Government now defines "the rich" as those with taxable earnings above 37,401. Hardly rich by anyone's standards, but rich enough to lose child benefit and have your offspring paying 9K per year for the privilege of getting a couple of lectures a week at a British university. You can hardly blame parents for trying to help their kids if they choose to become professional pilots by providing financial assistance, now that the self-improver option is pretty much gone. It doesn't make them rich kids either, would you describe university students graduating with debts of 70K rick, just because they were unlucky enough to be deemed middle class and rich by their government?

I was lucky enough to receive my training for free by serving in the military, I find the endless bashing of cadets perplexing, especially when most of the cause for the degradation of T&Cs in the airline industry is a direct result of pilots refusing to stand up and be counted. Self-interest has always been at the heart of it and always will.
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 10:07
  #37 (permalink)  

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Does anybody here live in the real world?

BALPA should do this, BALPA should have done that, BALPA this that and the other.

Just how should BALPA stand up to the big bad airlines and force change?

The world is very simple in this area, supply and demand. IF, a big IF, a shortage looms then the big bad bosses will have to sponsor training and pay salaries which attract more people. While people are willing to sacrifice so much to gain a licence and work for a pittance or pay to fly the world isn't going to change anytime soon.
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 12:04
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by D O Guerrero
1. You people, especially spandex masher, really know how to generalise don't you?
2. When finishing an Integrated course, most of these cadets are faced with almost no option in where they go.
3. If Flybe are recruiting, which more often than not, they aren't, the terms and conditions are so poor as to make it almost pointless to get a job there.
4. I worked my arse of after my training to get a job and I would have taken one anywhere including as an FI or air taxi pilot or whatever - but these jobs in light aircraft and turboprops simply don't exist. So what's left? Ryanair or Easyjet.
5. Don't blame individuals by hurling ignorant personal abuse at them - they are dealing with a difficult situation in the best way they can.
6. No-one wants to fork out tens of thousands of pounds (in my case a lot of money that I worked my arse off to earn) for more training.
7. The options are simple - take that job and pay for a TR or start filling in the Job Seeker's Allowance form to keep Lord Spandex sweet.
8. But perhaps its better to find out the facts before you lump everyone together as spoiled brats. Remember how much you wanted to be a pilot when you were young?
1. Yes, of course it's a generalisation as I don't know everybody. But I know the type!
2. Ask yourself why, I've already shown the reasons. There are no jobs because progression has been strangled because spoilt brats want to jump the queue. If that hadn't started then things would be the same as they were 2 decades ago.
3. Silly statement, see number 4.
4. So you would have taken a job anywhere except Flybe? These jobs would exist if the queue jumpers weren't jumping the queue.
5. The best way to do something is remortgage their parents house to get thousands of pounds to pay for a job? Again, if this kind of thing hadn't started because of spoilt, impatient, queue jumpers then there would be jobs.
6. Simply don't do it then. If nobody paid for a job then the airlines would have to rethink their strategy wouldn't they? But as long as you lot of spoilt brats continue to queue jump you only serve to perpetuate the very situation that you bemoan.
7. The options are simple. If nobody paid for a job then there would be jobs that you don't have to pay for.
8. Yes of course I do. But, I wouldn't and couldn't have paid thousands of pounds to jump the queue like a spoilt 'I want one now' brat. If only you knew what my first flying job was.

I'll post this again, just for you.
You see what happens when you do that? There is now no job for the newly qualified pilot because the air taxi job he could have had is still being filled by the air taxi pilot who can't move on to a turbo prop because the turbo prop job he could have had is still being filled by a turbo prop pilot who can't move on to a big shiny jet because people like you have paid to jump the queue
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 12:17
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Oh dear... You can't reason with the unreasonable.
Yes I would have gladly taken a job with Flybe - I was speaking for others. I was lucky enough to be able to afford to be paid 17k a year.
So tell me Spandex, what have you done about it? Presumably you resigned your job in disgust. As you say, if everyone were to do that then the problem would be solved.
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Old 6th Nov 2010, 12:19
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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nigegilb and D O Guerrero thank you for standing up for cadet pilots! I can't believe or understand the point of view of others on this forum that bash cadets.

I (as probably every pilot before me) have always wanted to be a pilot since year dot. I studied hard in school, college and then university. When I came out of university, I wanted to start training, so I looked around at the highest quality FTOs (CTC, OAA, FTE...). I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but in order to achieve my lifetime goal, the only way to fund training was to get myself an all mighty loan (because these days, there is no such thing as airline sponsorship in the UK). So, I come out of training with CPL/IR, what next?

My options at this point;
1. Pay £5-6000 for an instructor rating and hope for a job (single engine )
2. Pay £7500 for a A320 type rating with EZY job (jet engine ), but struggle on loan repayments.
3. Pay £20000 for 737 classic rating with Jet2 (dated aircraft and expensive)
4. Take the morale high ground and find a non-flying job in a recession (struggling to pay back loan)

Now, I put it to those who criticise cadets for paying for type ratings which of the above options would they pick if they were in my position?

As I see it there is one clear option. I am going to be in financial trouble anyway, so I might as well go for the one that fits my life goal, oh yeah, airline pilot. So, option 2 it is then!
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