Jet2 Recruiting now
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Kong
You can spend all day if you like, dissecting and analysing words that I've used but I am very confident in my use of the English language, that the overwhelming majority of thinking readers will understand my message. You really should have gone with your first instinct.
So a bunch of guys with debts exceeding £100k and desperate for a job are not very, very vulnerable?
"Jet2 is ethical because they lay out their conditions very clearly"-really? Is that why the telephone interviews consists primarily of establishing what the is the minimum package you will accept. If the terms and conditions are so clear then an opening statement of something like "we have a number of permanent 70% postions available, is this something you would be interested in"? Or even have those details on the website. Also,if they are so desperate to cut costs, because poor old Jet2 are the only ones fighting in this current market, why are they not taking on type rated guys ahead of non type rated? Nothing to do with creaming off some of the TR costs I suppose? Perhaps you might also be able to justify a bond of £6,000 for recurrent training for a new entry TR pilot, when the true cost would be about £2,000? I won't even mention the morals involved in bonding for what is legally required training-oops I just did. Actually the list of negatives is almost endless.
When I state that Jet2's modus operandi is cheapskateitis, I refer to the whole package and not just the constant references to the 70% deal. They have consistenly and from day one, paid well below the market rate regardless of the actual state of the market. You and they are simply using this current market to justify that approach. I dare you to get hold of the full details of one of the proper airlines packages and even you would probably be emabarrassed to discover you're effectively working for about 66% of their rate.
Again for those that feel they have to accept this sort of deal just now because they simply have so little choice, I actually take my hat off to them and hope they will scoot off at the first available opportunity.
You are quite correct, I did post on the Easyjet forum, I assume you must mean this one:
Well if you read that as "banging on". I plead guilty. But at least you have picked up on the common theme, of exploitation just because they can. Or perhaps you can even find some justification for paying new commanders 90% of a first year command salary for six months?
And you are also quite correct when you said I am standing on the sidelines supporting pilot T&Cs in general. I worked for a large UK airline when the DFO instigated a Junior F/O salary scale (now very common of course) and when I challenged him to justify this approach, he said that he didn't think it correct that an F/O with about 1500 hours should get the same as one with 3,000 to 4,000 hours (shows how long ago this was). I thought about this and asked if this was perhaps because they would always fly with training captains (so extra costs). No was the answer. Ah so maybe they will always fly with a senior captain at least then (extra work for rostering/crewing). Nope was the answer. So when I established, that when cleared for normal line flying, this Junior F/O would be doing exactly the same type of flying and exactly the same number of hours as the other F/Os, I told the DFO to his face he was wrong and exploiting these people. Did it make a jot of difference? Of course not but that's where I am coming from because what you don't get is that there are many others like me who do care, even when not directly and personally affected
The bottom line is that we are all whores in this business but Jet2 certainly haven't found my price. Its all about self worth and the only person who should be justifying such poor deals is the individual and then only then to himself.
I see that I really have "banged on" now, sorry about that but I supect this will be my last post on this topic because whilst I know that many support my viewpoint, there absolutely no chance to get through to apologists such as yourself and I think I have said all that I need to.
So a bunch of guys with debts exceeding £100k and desperate for a job are not very, very vulnerable?
"Jet2 is ethical because they lay out their conditions very clearly"-really? Is that why the telephone interviews consists primarily of establishing what the is the minimum package you will accept. If the terms and conditions are so clear then an opening statement of something like "we have a number of permanent 70% postions available, is this something you would be interested in"? Or even have those details on the website. Also,if they are so desperate to cut costs, because poor old Jet2 are the only ones fighting in this current market, why are they not taking on type rated guys ahead of non type rated? Nothing to do with creaming off some of the TR costs I suppose? Perhaps you might also be able to justify a bond of £6,000 for recurrent training for a new entry TR pilot, when the true cost would be about £2,000? I won't even mention the morals involved in bonding for what is legally required training-oops I just did. Actually the list of negatives is almost endless.
When I state that Jet2's modus operandi is cheapskateitis, I refer to the whole package and not just the constant references to the 70% deal. They have consistenly and from day one, paid well below the market rate regardless of the actual state of the market. You and they are simply using this current market to justify that approach. I dare you to get hold of the full details of one of the proper airlines packages and even you would probably be emabarrassed to discover you're effectively working for about 66% of their rate.
Again for those that feel they have to accept this sort of deal just now because they simply have so little choice, I actually take my hat off to them and hope they will scoot off at the first available opportunity.
You are quite correct, I did post on the Easyjet forum, I assume you must mean this one:
Genuine Question
Something that has always caught my eye about EasyJet's T&Cs is the 90% salary for six months after gaining command, whether DEC or internal upgrade. I am intrigued to know firstly how managent spin their justification of this and secondly why this was ever accepted/tolerated by the pilots or Balpa or their predecessors.
Just to repeat this a genuine question.
Something that has always caught my eye about EasyJet's T&Cs is the 90% salary for six months after gaining command, whether DEC or internal upgrade. I am intrigued to know firstly how managent spin their justification of this and secondly why this was ever accepted/tolerated by the pilots or Balpa or their predecessors.
Just to repeat this a genuine question.
And you are also quite correct when you said I am standing on the sidelines supporting pilot T&Cs in general. I worked for a large UK airline when the DFO instigated a Junior F/O salary scale (now very common of course) and when I challenged him to justify this approach, he said that he didn't think it correct that an F/O with about 1500 hours should get the same as one with 3,000 to 4,000 hours (shows how long ago this was). I thought about this and asked if this was perhaps because they would always fly with training captains (so extra costs). No was the answer. Ah so maybe they will always fly with a senior captain at least then (extra work for rostering/crewing). Nope was the answer. So when I established, that when cleared for normal line flying, this Junior F/O would be doing exactly the same type of flying and exactly the same number of hours as the other F/Os, I told the DFO to his face he was wrong and exploiting these people. Did it make a jot of difference? Of course not but that's where I am coming from because what you don't get is that there are many others like me who do care, even when not directly and personally affected
The bottom line is that we are all whores in this business but Jet2 certainly haven't found my price. Its all about self worth and the only person who should be justifying such poor deals is the individual and then only then to himself.
I see that I really have "banged on" now, sorry about that but I supect this will be my last post on this topic because whilst I know that many support my viewpoint, there absolutely no chance to get through to apologists such as yourself and I think I have said all that I need to.
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Jet2 are struggling to keep the crews they've got, never mind conning debt-ridden newbies into parting with more hard-borrowed cash & working for sub-standard t's & c's!!
1 guy has just walked off his Command course to get to the Middle East, a few more that have said they are waiting for interview results with Middle Eastern carriers & BA.
Of the 70% Contract holders some where promised 'Upgrades' to 100% Contracts from Nov 1st 2010, that has all gone quiet, most of the remaining 70%'ers aren't going to return come April. The Summer-Only guys who finish at the end of October were offered 100% Contracts from Nov 1st 2011, that has also gone quiet. Some poor sods, taking Jet2 at their word turned down lucrative overseas contracts because of Jet2's empty promises.
This is the most badly managed recruitment campaign of professionals I have ever seen. Like I said earlier, will the last man out please turn out the lights. Which is a shame because it's a friendly company, you just need a second income to work here... and that's from a debt-free Captain.
1 guy has just walked off his Command course to get to the Middle East, a few more that have said they are waiting for interview results with Middle Eastern carriers & BA.
Of the 70% Contract holders some where promised 'Upgrades' to 100% Contracts from Nov 1st 2010, that has all gone quiet, most of the remaining 70%'ers aren't going to return come April. The Summer-Only guys who finish at the end of October were offered 100% Contracts from Nov 1st 2011, that has also gone quiet. Some poor sods, taking Jet2 at their word turned down lucrative overseas contracts because of Jet2's empty promises.
This is the most badly managed recruitment campaign of professionals I have ever seen. Like I said earlier, will the last man out please turn out the lights. Which is a shame because it's a friendly company, you just need a second income to work here... and that's from a debt-free Captain.
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well the company seems ok for a lot of people! obviously not those already driving a shiny jet and not wanting others to accept these poor T&C's for fear that it will further degrade their future deals!
but namely those still working for J2, surely if the company was that bad lots of people would be leaving! Or have the kahunas to say its bad and warn people not to join?
So maybe as it looks from outside, the company are just trying it on to save costs, as any company has the right to do (morally right or wrong!)
have they always charged for the TR in the past or bonded people?
the options for recruitment are the same across the board as you've all pointed out--the time for not paying for TR's was 10 years ago when it started! Now if you don't have the TR you cannot apply (BA and no doubt more to follow)
I wonder if it will ever change back to your good old days!
many have arrived here in the last decade and have known nothing different. to get on it looks like you'll have to buy a TR (or be a newbie, flybe, ezy ryr cityjet) and look to regain the money by being promoted in the shortest time possible!
regarding the 70% contract if it could work for you would you do it to move up the ladder a few rungs?
interested to see if any employees can help and give the thumbs up or down!
please be honest as many a pilot will be looking at your views good or bad!
I'm waiting for the slating! but probably won't rise to it!
but namely those still working for J2, surely if the company was that bad lots of people would be leaving! Or have the kahunas to say its bad and warn people not to join?
So maybe as it looks from outside, the company are just trying it on to save costs, as any company has the right to do (morally right or wrong!)
have they always charged for the TR in the past or bonded people?
the options for recruitment are the same across the board as you've all pointed out--the time for not paying for TR's was 10 years ago when it started! Now if you don't have the TR you cannot apply (BA and no doubt more to follow)
I wonder if it will ever change back to your good old days!
many have arrived here in the last decade and have known nothing different. to get on it looks like you'll have to buy a TR (or be a newbie, flybe, ezy ryr cityjet) and look to regain the money by being promoted in the shortest time possible!
regarding the 70% contract if it could work for you would you do it to move up the ladder a few rungs?
interested to see if any employees can help and give the thumbs up or down!
please be honest as many a pilot will be looking at your views good or bad!
I'm waiting for the slating! but probably won't rise to it!
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Starbear
See my post on easyjet. Do you think the general public might be interested in what's going on within our industry regarding flying via "panorama" or "dispatches".the exploitation of pilots and safety implications (see Thomas cook airbus incident into kos and numerous other anecdotal evidence of P2F guys). the way we are going on could lead to a hull loss involving either P2F or exploited pilots in some shape. There will always be incidents involving pilots BUT when someone parts with big money is he/she there because of ability or because of cash? Slightly off the subject I know but interested in your thoughts.
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Jet2 are in good financial health. The share price of dart group has being creeping upward for some time now.
The grubby "pay £25 grand for a 70% underpaid job" is just another mechanism to maximise profits and increase shareholder value., at the expense of long term business planning.
Airlines of Jet 2's size may well struggle to survive a hull loss. A good mix of experienced, loyal crew helps to keep the whole operation safe. High crew turnover, with rapid expansion, makes the whole thing creak at the seams.
When the opening question in an interview to time served experienced pilots is "are you willing to give us £25 grand" with a no answer ending the interview, it speaks volumes about managements priorities.
This whole recruitment drive has been a shambles.
To those who have joined good luck, serve your time then move on quickly.
The grubby "pay £25 grand for a 70% underpaid job" is just another mechanism to maximise profits and increase shareholder value., at the expense of long term business planning.
Airlines of Jet 2's size may well struggle to survive a hull loss. A good mix of experienced, loyal crew helps to keep the whole operation safe. High crew turnover, with rapid expansion, makes the whole thing creak at the seams.
When the opening question in an interview to time served experienced pilots is "are you willing to give us £25 grand" with a no answer ending the interview, it speaks volumes about managements priorities.
This whole recruitment drive has been a shambles.
To those who have joined good luck, serve your time then move on quickly.
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I don't know where the "rapid expansion" idea comes from. Jet2 have done anything but that over the past few years - adding one or two aircraft (maybe 4 next year) at a time.
There is a great deal of guff being talked here at the moment. Certainly all of us at jet2 know people who are leaving, and that contrasts with everyone staying put over the past couple of years - but it certainly isn't a rush for the exits, and is well within the normal turnover of good people you would expect in any workplace. The overall experience levels are much higher than when I joined 5 years ago, and loose talk about safety being affected is, to say the least, pretty irresponsible.
There is a great deal of guff being talked here at the moment. Certainly all of us at jet2 know people who are leaving, and that contrasts with everyone staying put over the past couple of years - but it certainly isn't a rush for the exits, and is well within the normal turnover of good people you would expect in any workplace. The overall experience levels are much higher than when I joined 5 years ago, and loose talk about safety being affected is, to say the least, pretty irresponsible.
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Hi,
I believe that of the 100 or so pilots that Jet2 are recruiting now only 12 are the non TR low experienced guys i.e. 12%, and of these many were flying instructors with 1000+ hours. At my assessment day for experienced non TR Capts and FOs there was a wide range of backgrounds with lots of experience from regionals and military.
Yes, those who take a position at Jet at the moment have to pay a share of the cost of a TR, but is about 50% of the cost of Ryan Air. Do I wish that this was not the case? Yes obviously, but the value I place on being able to drive to work and see my family every night is high as opposed to being based in Northern Scotland or Southern Italy. Other pilots taking Jet2 jobs will do so for their own reasons; the chance to fly jets over turboprops; short time to command over legacy carriers; FJ military guys wanting the multi-crew time to unfreeze ATPLs etc The list is long but each individual will have placed a value on their desires and if that value is greater than the price that Jet2 are asking then Jet2 is an option.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the paying for TR issues I think its very wrong to start scaremongering about safety. As I said the guys Jet2 are recruiting are from a wide range of backgrounds and experiences and it is one of the few companies allowing people with experience to move up the ladder in the traditional way unlike the cadet only or specific TR only recruitment of Easy, Ryan, BA and Virgin.
Regards
I believe that of the 100 or so pilots that Jet2 are recruiting now only 12 are the non TR low experienced guys i.e. 12%, and of these many were flying instructors with 1000+ hours. At my assessment day for experienced non TR Capts and FOs there was a wide range of backgrounds with lots of experience from regionals and military.
Yes, those who take a position at Jet at the moment have to pay a share of the cost of a TR, but is about 50% of the cost of Ryan Air. Do I wish that this was not the case? Yes obviously, but the value I place on being able to drive to work and see my family every night is high as opposed to being based in Northern Scotland or Southern Italy. Other pilots taking Jet2 jobs will do so for their own reasons; the chance to fly jets over turboprops; short time to command over legacy carriers; FJ military guys wanting the multi-crew time to unfreeze ATPLs etc The list is long but each individual will have placed a value on their desires and if that value is greater than the price that Jet2 are asking then Jet2 is an option.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the paying for TR issues I think its very wrong to start scaremongering about safety. As I said the guys Jet2 are recruiting are from a wide range of backgrounds and experiences and it is one of the few companies allowing people with experience to move up the ladder in the traditional way unlike the cadet only or specific TR only recruitment of Easy, Ryan, BA and Virgin.
Regards
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Questions and comments have recently been raised inviting input from pilots within Jet2 so as a Jet2 Captain I perilously reply.
As for Jet2s financial well being, it's a part of Dart Group and a public company so the financial records are public record. I am no accountant but my personal opinion is that Dart Group and Jet2 are financially healthy and as sound as any airline/business can be these days. As for why they succeed where others have failed, there are certainly many reasons but the one that perhaps mostly concerns us is keeping labour costs down - hence paying for one's own TR/training and the more recent trend toward recruitment of cadets and part time (70%) contracts.
As for safety concerns, any suggestion that Jet2s methods are unsafe are unfounded. Safety is the first priority I would think in any airline and Jet2 is no exception. Jet2 I think is a very safety and CRM focused operation. Jet2 has historically recruited pilots and cabin crew from a variety of backgrounds and levels of experience - a practice that has proved effective and has provided employment opportunities where other airlines have not.
As for whether Jet2 is a good place to work and are we all leaving, I relpy that no airline is perfect and all have their good and bad qualities. In addition, no airline will ever please everyone. Yes some Jet2 pilots are leaving and others have applications in with other airlines but I don't know how many and I don't think anyone else does. I am personally happy and I am not looking for greener pastures. That said, should lucrative opportunities present themselves I would give them due consideration. We are all at different stages in our career and prioritize differently and in the end take the best job that suits us. I think whoever does decide to accept Jet2s offer for better or worse will find Jet2 a welcoming place to work. Those who joined more recently would perhaps be better to comment on this.
As for how Jet2 has conducted itself during this recruitment, well there are certainly those with some very strong opinions on this topic. I will start by saying that I know that some of us "normal" line flyers have done some phone calling and taken part in the selection process in other ways, but I have not been involved in the process at all other than watching with interest. I think the process as I understand it has been unprecedented and therefore difficult for some to stomach and I sympathize. It is clear that Jet2s recruitment methods are not to everyones' tastes and whether they are efficient or not remains to be seen. All I know is that the HR/recruitment and Training Depts have their hands full this winter.
I think anyone considering Jet2 should unfortunately at the moment expect the offerings to be more akin to those of some other low cost airlines and less like those of BA and VS not to mention overseas airlines. If anyone is wondering, I am not management, I am permanent full time and I did pay for my TR several years ago.
All the best.
As for Jet2s financial well being, it's a part of Dart Group and a public company so the financial records are public record. I am no accountant but my personal opinion is that Dart Group and Jet2 are financially healthy and as sound as any airline/business can be these days. As for why they succeed where others have failed, there are certainly many reasons but the one that perhaps mostly concerns us is keeping labour costs down - hence paying for one's own TR/training and the more recent trend toward recruitment of cadets and part time (70%) contracts.
As for safety concerns, any suggestion that Jet2s methods are unsafe are unfounded. Safety is the first priority I would think in any airline and Jet2 is no exception. Jet2 I think is a very safety and CRM focused operation. Jet2 has historically recruited pilots and cabin crew from a variety of backgrounds and levels of experience - a practice that has proved effective and has provided employment opportunities where other airlines have not.
As for whether Jet2 is a good place to work and are we all leaving, I relpy that no airline is perfect and all have their good and bad qualities. In addition, no airline will ever please everyone. Yes some Jet2 pilots are leaving and others have applications in with other airlines but I don't know how many and I don't think anyone else does. I am personally happy and I am not looking for greener pastures. That said, should lucrative opportunities present themselves I would give them due consideration. We are all at different stages in our career and prioritize differently and in the end take the best job that suits us. I think whoever does decide to accept Jet2s offer for better or worse will find Jet2 a welcoming place to work. Those who joined more recently would perhaps be better to comment on this.
As for how Jet2 has conducted itself during this recruitment, well there are certainly those with some very strong opinions on this topic. I will start by saying that I know that some of us "normal" line flyers have done some phone calling and taken part in the selection process in other ways, but I have not been involved in the process at all other than watching with interest. I think the process as I understand it has been unprecedented and therefore difficult for some to stomach and I sympathize. It is clear that Jet2s recruitment methods are not to everyones' tastes and whether they are efficient or not remains to be seen. All I know is that the HR/recruitment and Training Depts have their hands full this winter.
I think anyone considering Jet2 should unfortunately at the moment expect the offerings to be more akin to those of some other low cost airlines and less like those of BA and VS not to mention overseas airlines. If anyone is wondering, I am not management, I am permanent full time and I did pay for my TR several years ago.
All the best.
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So, the offer as I understood it after my telephone 'interview'.
You pay £25000 upfront
You earn £27000 (taxable) + £4000 allowances (tax free?) - which by my gash calculations = £24555 Net
I'd have to take a loan out for the £25000 (unless there is a Jet2 funding stream? which was not mentioned) costing £6554 in interest (5 year loan).
Over 5 years (the life of the loan) I would earn £122775-£31554 (loan)
Leaving me £18244 Net per annum (average).
Maths in public is not my forte; so is this correct?
Unless I have done a serious miscalculation, I'll stick to my £36000 Net thanks..... I will probably have enough spare change for a type rating too
You pay £25000 upfront
You earn £27000 (taxable) + £4000 allowances (tax free?) - which by my gash calculations = £24555 Net
I'd have to take a loan out for the £25000 (unless there is a Jet2 funding stream? which was not mentioned) costing £6554 in interest (5 year loan).
Over 5 years (the life of the loan) I would earn £122775-£31554 (loan)
Leaving me £18244 Net per annum (average).
Maths in public is not my forte; so is this correct?
Unless I have done a serious miscalculation, I'll stick to my £36000 Net thanks..... I will probably have enough spare change for a type rating too
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I´ve been following this forum for a while now. About to take my ATP theory exam in a few months, have 700h TT, been CFI in the US but no other commercial experience. Will complete my ATP frozen for sure, but dont think ill do the MCC, JOC and TR, since it will probably be a waste. Financial risk simply too high. Considering the fact that i would be at the bottom of any employers list, i think ill go back to my job in the armed forces.
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I'm very happy at Jet2 but the current recruitment saga leaves me totally embarrassed. We need the best pilots, not the weaker candidates who will only work for us because there's nothing else - and that's what this process will deliver.
Here's why we need to recruit and retain the best. The Leeds operation depends daily on the huge level of skill and experience of the local pilots. If you don't know Leeds, you would not believe that it's possible to run an extensive schedule from there. But we do, regularly and safely, day in day out. I take off my hats to these pilots, it is nothing short of remarkable that nothing has ever gone seriously wrong.
As someone has written above, Jet2 would not survive a hull loss. Those who are leading the recruiting might care to bear this in mind when we find that Jet2's skills levels have fallen through the floor.
Here's why we need to recruit and retain the best. The Leeds operation depends daily on the huge level of skill and experience of the local pilots. If you don't know Leeds, you would not believe that it's possible to run an extensive schedule from there. But we do, regularly and safely, day in day out. I take off my hats to these pilots, it is nothing short of remarkable that nothing has ever gone seriously wrong.
As someone has written above, Jet2 would not survive a hull loss. Those who are leading the recruiting might care to bear this in mind when we find that Jet2's skills levels have fallen through the floor.
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Why would a normal pilot at Jetdos want to do a stint at telesales
I agree with Pilothouse, the current recruitment process is a mess, and an embarrassment to those of us who work at Jet2. Once this round of recruitment is over, I hope there's a review of how it was handled such that it never happens in this way again.
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Greedy Jet2
Although you have been flying for decades and you can bring along tons of experience...
What they want is your £25000 upfront and that you fly for peanuts.
Safety first my ass!
Pay the 25k, grab the hours and GET OUT.
Their greedy habits and fake recruitment stunt are not forgotten and will be used against them sooner or later.
What they want is your £25000 upfront and that you fly for peanuts.
Safety first my ass!
Pay the 25k, grab the hours and GET OUT.
Their greedy habits and fake recruitment stunt are not forgotten and will be used against them sooner or later.