Jet Copilot or Turboprop PIC
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Jet Copilot or Turboprop PIC
Hey guys, would like to know the opinion of the senior pilots, that is to say, the wise guys.
Lets say a company promises you a 5 year time to go to comand. Which of the 2 possibilities you think it's the best?
A) Stay the 5 years as a copilot of a jet aircraft, and then after year 5 just pass to the left place, in the same plane
B) After 3 years as a jet copilot, spend 2 years as a commander of a turboprop plane, and then after that, return to the jet plane in the left position?
The question is: Is it worthy to negociate 2 years of jet in order to get 2 years of PIC?
Thanx and Good Flights!!
Lets say a company promises you a 5 year time to go to comand. Which of the 2 possibilities you think it's the best?
A) Stay the 5 years as a copilot of a jet aircraft, and then after year 5 just pass to the left place, in the same plane
B) After 3 years as a jet copilot, spend 2 years as a commander of a turboprop plane, and then after that, return to the jet plane in the left position?
The question is: Is it worthy to negociate 2 years of jet in order to get 2 years of PIC?
Thanx and Good Flights!!
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Basically, never turn down a type, never turn down a command.
Fast forward 3 years, you're offered either a TC command or stay where you are. Can you guarentee that the jet command will still be there in 2 years?
Fast forward 3 years, you're offered either a TC command or stay where you are. Can you guarentee that the jet command will still be there in 2 years?
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It depends on your personal ambitions and goals. Where do you see yourself in five years from now?
It also depends on the company - is it reliable, do you trust them to keep a promise they have to fulfill in five years from now?
Most of all: How much do they pay you? At the end of the day, you're trying to earn a living with this job, or aren't you? (plenty of young "pilots" are not)
If you think of the whole thing as a career-progression, it is arguable how much it is worth in your CV to have 1500 hours command time on a turboprop (which you may get within two years).
- Many big airlines are only interested in jet-experience, so that would be an argument to stay on the jet, even if it is only as a First Officer.
- On the other hand, only Captains with some experience are really valuable to other airlines.
It's hard to give you solid advice as to what to do. I can only suggest to think about these points. The main question is, where do you want to go next.
I personally don't believe in the old "Never reject a command" - I know enough guys with thousands of hours on a King Air or Dash 7, who are unable to get a job on an A320.
There is no general rule.
It also depends on the company - is it reliable, do you trust them to keep a promise they have to fulfill in five years from now?
Most of all: How much do they pay you? At the end of the day, you're trying to earn a living with this job, or aren't you? (plenty of young "pilots" are not)
If you think of the whole thing as a career-progression, it is arguable how much it is worth in your CV to have 1500 hours command time on a turboprop (which you may get within two years).
- Many big airlines are only interested in jet-experience, so that would be an argument to stay on the jet, even if it is only as a First Officer.
- On the other hand, only Captains with some experience are really valuable to other airlines.
It's hard to give you solid advice as to what to do. I can only suggest to think about these points. The main question is, where do you want to go next.
I personally don't believe in the old "Never reject a command" - I know enough guys with thousands of hours on a King Air or Dash 7, who are unable to get a job on an A320.
There is no general rule.
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@poina
No questions about that, if they are both on the same kind of flying (jet or turboprop)
The difficult question is: Is PIC time in turboprop more valuable than SIC time in jet?
No questions about that, if they are both on the same kind of flying (jet or turboprop)
The difficult question is: Is PIC time in turboprop more valuable than SIC time in jet?
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IMO, you shouldn't even have to think too hard on this. Yes, the command time is better, especially if you have an IN already as you mentioned in post 1.
I knew ex-Eastern guys who stayed as FO for schedule/routes/domocile/ reasons and when we were together at Saudia that's the only position they could hold and subsequently retired as FO. Get command time early and alot of it, never know in this business when something comes up, good or bad. Hope this helps.
I knew ex-Eastern guys who stayed as FO for schedule/routes/domocile/ reasons and when we were together at Saudia that's the only position they could hold and subsequently retired as FO. Get command time early and alot of it, never know in this business when something comes up, good or bad. Hope this helps.
Reminds me of the old conundrum of whether to take a first biggy job on a glass turboprop or the 737-200?
This question faced many an individual during the 90´s... not so much today of course.
The general consensus then was go for the 732 - although if I were in a similar situation back then I would probably have opted for the glass.
I suspect that most will argue similarly today (albeit in a slightly different context) stay with the Jet.
If the choice however is between a Jurassic Jet and a Modern Glass Turboprop..... I´d abandon the Jurassic in a heartbeat.
This question faced many an individual during the 90´s... not so much today of course.
The general consensus then was go for the 732 - although if I were in a similar situation back then I would probably have opted for the glass.
I suspect that most will argue similarly today (albeit in a slightly different context) stay with the Jet.
If the choice however is between a Jurassic Jet and a Modern Glass Turboprop..... I´d abandon the Jurassic in a heartbeat.
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Forget all the others, the most important thing is:
1 Are you or are you going to be where you want to be?
2 Are you happy with your current terms in the long term?
A new type or more money means
all if you are away from family and friends long term. And I've been doing it for nearly 4 years now!
D and F
1 Are you or are you going to be where you want to be?
2 Are you happy with your current terms in the long term?
A new type or more money means
all if you are away from family and friends long term. And I've been doing it for nearly 4 years now!D and F
Get command time always. As someone who was involved in hiring interesting prospects in the past, command time was always paramount.
There is not much point in hiring an F/O with 5,000 hours on jets who has never been in the left seat. (The first question is "why were they still in the right seat"?).
It is much better to hire an ex-commander with 5,000 hours with no jet time and then teach him to fly the new equipment.
There is not much point in hiring an F/O with 5,000 hours on jets who has never been in the left seat. (The first question is "why were they still in the right seat"?).
It is much better to hire an ex-commander with 5,000 hours with no jet time and then teach him to fly the new equipment.
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I cannot agree on this "command" thing. The company who hires you is probably as important. Better off with a reputable, stable company. You will get your command later on, if you deserve it. And look for long term job prospects. Unless you want to skim all those short living, quick forgotten third rank operators..
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Have you ever flown command commercially? If you have, then this should be as close to a no-brainer as you can get.
PIC time is better than SIC time, hands down.
The position of commander is one which demands respect - by oneself as others.
Commanders normally get paid better.
As PIC you get the opportunity to shape your own day - plans of action, mood in the cockpit and with the cabin crews.
And then some Qs...
How will either decision affect your income?
How about the other terms, as LOL, job security, bases etc?
How are the rosters?
How is the flying vs what you like to do? No point sitting 8-10hrs a day on A/P if you really love handflying.
Will you be away from home a lot? How will this affect your family and social life?
If you don`t already have an ATPL, the command position will require that you have one - i.e. one up from your CPL
My 2 cents; if you want some good command experience go for the TP, then, if you want to a few years down the line, go for the jet if that makes you happy. On the way you will most certainly have gained some good command experience, and probably done a bit more handflying, and met some younger colleagues.
A lot of people, often fresh out of the academy, seem to think that the jet equals happiness. It may or may not. It all depends on what is important to you (not anyone else), and what satisfies yourself.
I must say, that if you are in a position to choose between 2 flying jobs, then you are in a very envious position to may aspiring pilots Good for you!
PIC time is better than SIC time, hands down.
The position of commander is one which demands respect - by oneself as others.
Commanders normally get paid better.
As PIC you get the opportunity to shape your own day - plans of action, mood in the cockpit and with the cabin crews.
And then some Qs...
How will either decision affect your income?
How about the other terms, as LOL, job security, bases etc?
How are the rosters?
How is the flying vs what you like to do? No point sitting 8-10hrs a day on A/P if you really love handflying.
Will you be away from home a lot? How will this affect your family and social life?
If you don`t already have an ATPL, the command position will require that you have one - i.e. one up from your CPL
My 2 cents; if you want some good command experience go for the TP, then, if you want to a few years down the line, go for the jet if that makes you happy. On the way you will most certainly have gained some good command experience, and probably done a bit more handflying, and met some younger colleagues.
A lot of people, often fresh out of the academy, seem to think that the jet equals happiness. It may or may not. It all depends on what is important to you (not anyone else), and what satisfies yourself. I must say, that if you are in a position to choose between 2 flying jobs, then you are in a very envious position to may aspiring pilots
Good for you!
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It is not black and white?
Is there a command bond? (e.g. £8k flat for two years).Do you have to pay for type rating on jet (£23k?). If so you need to gauge the market. Market going UP get jet time as FO, Market going DOWN get TP Command.
Never turn down a Command? I work with guys who regret getting TP command when all current the jobs are asking for jet time. Its a credibility thing with some operators. It is very easy to get stuck, especially if the TP is small, domestic only etc. Don't listen to these guys who say that there is a golden rule. Be prepared to step outside the SOPs when the situation demands.
It takes courage to walk away from an offer of Command when it will result in a career cul de sac. Keep as much flexibility as you can and get on a universal type (whether heavy TP or Jet) such as A320/737/EMB145/ATR/Dash8 - that will give you mobility. The important thing is to keep working during the downturn!
I wish Id taken my own advice !!!
Never turn down a Command? I work with guys who regret getting TP command when all current the jobs are asking for jet time. Its a credibility thing with some operators. It is very easy to get stuck, especially if the TP is small, domestic only etc. Don't listen to these guys who say that there is a golden rule. Be prepared to step outside the SOPs when the situation demands.
It takes courage to walk away from an offer of Command when it will result in a career cul de sac. Keep as much flexibility as you can and get on a universal type (whether heavy TP or Jet) such as A320/737/EMB145/ATR/Dash8 - that will give you mobility. The important thing is to keep working during the downturn!
I wish Id taken my own advice !!!
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what airplanes, jet and tp are we talking about? if you are ofered at74 or q400 comand take it! if its some small tp stay with jet. also if you intend to stay with company do not refuse comand. lots of my friends have flown boath and generaly all agree that flying tp is more challenging job, and will make great expiriance. unles you are heading for long range...
As of today, airlines looking for experienced crews tend to prefer jet SiC to turboprop PiC. There are no guarantees that it will stay that way next 5 years, but if it is to be judged by previous 10, it will. Recruiters don't have the time, the inclination or both to realize the oh-so-subtle differences between Q400 and Shorts Skyvan. Everything is just turboprop.
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Zedoscarro,
First of all, seniors are not always the wisest
If you have somehow a doubt of your Airline future existence and the TP Capt position doesn't increase your pay significantly then I would stay as an Fo on Jet.
Left seat with no experience on type is not an easy task and potentially unsafe.(new systems,new way to operate(low level flying/WX),new to the left seat,stress on your shoulders as a brand new captain)...
If lets say your Airline goes bust while you have just started your command flying,(within these 2 years),will another TP airline take your experience as a brand new captain and low hours on relevant type?
If they take you,will the salary be higher than an experienced FO on Jet?
In case of crisis,airlines need experience on type (FO Jet in your case) not a few hundreds hours on type and on the left seat).
All in all id suggest you stick to your fo seat and start preparing for your upgrade...
Your decision will greatly shape your future career in a very volatile and unsure airline world...good luck
First of all, seniors are not always the wisest
If you have somehow a doubt of your Airline future existence and the TP Capt position doesn't increase your pay significantly then I would stay as an Fo on Jet.
Left seat with no experience on type is not an easy task and potentially unsafe.(new systems,new way to operate(low level flying/WX),new to the left seat,stress on your shoulders as a brand new captain)...
If lets say your Airline goes bust while you have just started your command flying,(within these 2 years),will another TP airline take your experience as a brand new captain and low hours on relevant type?
If they take you,will the salary be higher than an experienced FO on Jet?
In case of crisis,airlines need experience on type (FO Jet in your case) not a few hundreds hours on type and on the left seat).
All in all id suggest you stick to your fo seat and start preparing for your upgrade...
Your decision will greatly shape your future career in a very volatile and unsure airline world...good luck
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Zedoscarro, I have been in a regional airline flying turboprop aircraft for quite a while. It was full of people trying to leave, both captains and first officers, even though it was not the worst company to work for.
It's quite sad, but when it comes to recruitment, turbo prop hours are worth close to nothing - and I am talking about heavy turboprop aircraft.
If you are with a decent company, stay where you are - otherwise your chances of getting stuck on a turboprop are very high.
Cheers and good luck!
It's quite sad, but when it comes to recruitment, turbo prop hours are worth close to nothing - and I am talking about heavy turboprop aircraft.
If you are with a decent company, stay where you are - otherwise your chances of getting stuck on a turboprop are very high.
Cheers and good luck!
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There are very few stable/reputable airlines outside of the legacy flag carriers. The days of $2,000,000 pensions are gone and will never come back. IMO, best to get command time ASAP and get to China, Korea, Viet Nam, India, or whenever the next growth will be.
True, turbo command ain't going to get you there, but may help in the next step to towards a jet command that will.
True, turbo command ain't going to get you there, but may help in the next step to towards a jet command that will.
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Take the Jet. !!!!!!!
If you want to get into a big, mainline carrier, then F/O experience on any jet is worth more than any command on turboprop.
Those who say that command of a turboprop will stand you in good stead for your future command on a jet, are living in a dreamworld. When the time comes for your jet command, your performance as an F/O, sim reports..etc. are what will count.
They won't give a toss about your Q400 command experience 5 years back. Unless they are upgrading guys out of seniority, or are working for some outfit with a dysfunctional upgrade system. Neither of which are the kind of companies you want to be working for.
There are plenty of guys in the industry who got stuck in turboprops, but then couldn't make the move to jets.
For whatever reason, the airlines seem to think that if you have 5000+ hours on turboprops, you are so used to going slow, that you couldn't handle going fast.
Take the jet !
If you want to get into a big, mainline carrier, then F/O experience on any jet is worth more than any command on turboprop.
Those who say that command of a turboprop will stand you in good stead for your future command on a jet, are living in a dreamworld. When the time comes for your jet command, your performance as an F/O, sim reports..etc. are what will count.
They won't give a toss about your Q400 command experience 5 years back. Unless they are upgrading guys out of seniority, or are working for some outfit with a dysfunctional upgrade system. Neither of which are the kind of companies you want to be working for.
There are plenty of guys in the industry who got stuck in turboprops, but then couldn't make the move to jets.
For whatever reason, the airlines seem to think that if you have 5000+ hours on turboprops, you are so used to going slow, that you couldn't handle going fast.
Take the jet !
Last edited by bartholomewrose; 7th Aug 2010 at 05:14.
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Take the jet and sit it out. I've been on turboprop for six years, taking command instead of a jet right seat. Now training, but most of the Jet operators are taking cadets and not even looking at turboprop fo's or captains.
However, I would advise to look at the lifestyle aspects as a priority, because that is what I find most important these days.
Good Luck
However, I would advise to look at the lifestyle aspects as a priority, because that is what I find most important these days.
Good Luck