Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
All this talk of an exodus doesn't surprise me. I've never met a pilot at Ryanair who has a good word to say about the management. However, it would surprise me if many people actually left or that any departures caused any disruption.
But I wouldn't be sad if I were forced to endure a busy Spring and Summer seeing as the past year has been pretty dire in terms of hours. Certainly no danger of hitting the 900 hour mark! 800 would be nice...
As an aside, I've also spoken with so many long term Ryanair Captains who are disgusted at the way the newer generation are treated. Not that there's much they can do about it.
But I wouldn't be sad if I were forced to endure a busy Spring and Summer seeing as the past year has been pretty dire in terms of hours. Certainly no danger of hitting the 900 hour mark! 800 would be nice...
As an aside, I've also spoken with so many long term Ryanair Captains who are disgusted at the way the newer generation are treated. Not that there's much they can do about it.
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2 new upgrades From my current base are off to the canaries.
They are now currently based else where since the canaries are not open, cannot remember if its restricted, not flown in there in a very long time! If it is they will just be stuck else where for 4-6 weeks why they do 100hrs, just a pain having to move twice, or commute depends on what you want really.
I know of 2 Ryanair pilots waiting for a simulator, and one other who has a start date in May, when I went I had a nice day, everyone was very friendly, got a good vibe from the place, just a shame I messed something up some where along the line.
At my base over the past few months since November 6 pilots have left, and a fair few have interviews lined up, or in some form of interview process, both captains and first officers!
Good luck to all
They are now currently based else where since the canaries are not open, cannot remember if its restricted, not flown in there in a very long time! If it is they will just be stuck else where for 4-6 weeks why they do 100hrs, just a pain having to move twice, or commute depends on what you want really.
I know of 2 Ryanair pilots waiting for a simulator, and one other who has a start date in May, when I went I had a nice day, everyone was very friendly, got a good vibe from the place, just a shame I messed something up some where along the line.
At my base over the past few months since November 6 pilots have left, and a fair few have interviews lined up, or in some form of interview process, both captains and first officers!
Good luck to all
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About 70-80 confirmed resignations in the last 6 months. Or about 3%, the expected attrition rate. I don't think too much sleep is being lost.
Those of you thinking that this rate of attrition will lead to better terms and conditions dream on. We need 2-300 hundred pilots leaving and not being replaced to make an impact. I cant see this happening. All that happens is "willing" pilots agree to work their days off. I can understand FR contract guys doinig it but why in the world would a brookfield "contractor" give up their day off for nothing in return? You dont get any extra money and generally your hours are evened out so you dont get extra hours. It gets FR out of a massive hole and covers up the problems we have.
At the end of the day there are too many FR pilots. We are the ones that have to sort this out for ourselves.
One question to consider.
Ryanair pilots went down the non union route, easyjet pilots went down the union route. Who has the better terms and conditions?
Last time this came up Ryanair countered by saying it would close a UK base and freeze all UK bases. We backed down. What happened?
BOH closed anyway for the winter, pilots sent overseas mostly, most paying their morgages in BOH and paying rent in their new base commuting home.
Bases are effectively frozen, very little movement in or out, and if there is movement its not going to be you, its going to be the new guy.
No Commands. Why would you do command for more or less the same money? If you have a house in the UK and have to rent abroad you will actually be down money.And an uncommutable 5/3 into the bargain.
What have we got to lose?
Those of you thinking that this rate of attrition will lead to better terms and conditions dream on. We need 2-300 hundred pilots leaving and not being replaced to make an impact. I cant see this happening. All that happens is "willing" pilots agree to work their days off. I can understand FR contract guys doinig it but why in the world would a brookfield "contractor" give up their day off for nothing in return? You dont get any extra money and generally your hours are evened out so you dont get extra hours. It gets FR out of a massive hole and covers up the problems we have.
At the end of the day there are too many FR pilots. We are the ones that have to sort this out for ourselves.
One question to consider.
Ryanair pilots went down the non union route, easyjet pilots went down the union route. Who has the better terms and conditions?
Last time this came up Ryanair countered by saying it would close a UK base and freeze all UK bases. We backed down. What happened?
BOH closed anyway for the winter, pilots sent overseas mostly, most paying their morgages in BOH and paying rent in their new base commuting home.
Bases are effectively frozen, very little movement in or out, and if there is movement its not going to be you, its going to be the new guy.
No Commands. Why would you do command for more or less the same money? If you have a house in the UK and have to rent abroad you will actually be down money.And an uncommutable 5/3 into the bargain.
What have we got to lose?
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beernice - thank you for someone being sensible!
I have no idea why anyone does them any favours. Its not like you get anything in return. I know guys who have been there over a decade and they still have to fight to get the annual leave they want. And then a few weeks before hand being told nope sorry REQUEST DENIED. Thats unless you have a 'management role' which entitles you to a fat bonus if WE save fuel (im not even going to go there with that joke!) and a very part time working schedule.
the times today ran an article about how many aircraft orders had been taken this year. fingers crossed that they are right and we are looking at growth in this industry then some of the pilots from bust airlines will stop feeding the abomination that is ryanair, all it is doing is creating this self perpetuating cycle of lower tnc's
(no offence to the guys who have come to FR from some of these airlines - i am well aware of how tough things can be when you get made redundant)
anyway in the words of PB 'if you don't like it
OFF' so thats what i am planning on doing and I hope some of you other guys and gals will do the same and above all else stop helping them out!
I have no idea why anyone does them any favours. Its not like you get anything in return. I know guys who have been there over a decade and they still have to fight to get the annual leave they want. And then a few weeks before hand being told nope sorry REQUEST DENIED. Thats unless you have a 'management role' which entitles you to a fat bonus if WE save fuel (im not even going to go there with that joke!) and a very part time working schedule.
the times today ran an article about how many aircraft orders had been taken this year. fingers crossed that they are right and we are looking at growth in this industry then some of the pilots from bust airlines will stop feeding the abomination that is ryanair, all it is doing is creating this self perpetuating cycle of lower tnc's
(no offence to the guys who have come to FR from some of these airlines - i am well aware of how tough things can be when you get made redundant)
anyway in the words of PB 'if you don't like it
OFF' so thats what i am planning on doing and I hope some of you other guys and gals will do the same and above all else stop helping them out!
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Emirates
Guys n Gals,
Here are the dates & times of the forthcoming Emirates Info sessions.
I'll be attending one and I hope to see lots of RYR pilots there
.
24th January 2011 - Edinburgh
Apex City Hotel
Time: 10 AM
25th January 2011 - Dublin
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM
26th January 2011 - Belfast
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM
I agree with the earlier post. Rostering are calling much more frequently now...to work off days
. Let's all not answer our phones and see what happens
Here are the dates & times of the forthcoming Emirates Info sessions.
I'll be attending one and I hope to see lots of RYR pilots there
.24th January 2011 - Edinburgh
Apex City Hotel
Time: 10 AM
25th January 2011 - Dublin
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM
26th January 2011 - Belfast
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM
I agree with the earlier post. Rostering are calling much more frequently now...to work off days
. Let's all not answer our phones and see what happens
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All Ryanair destinations. Wouldn't be surprised if PB turned up at at least one of those asking some hostile questions to RYR crew there.
Did it before at Stansted info sessions, will do it again.
Did it before at Stansted info sessions, will do it again.
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Unregisterd737 and d105
You are right.I think it has got to the stage in Ryanair that everyone agrees we need a Union.
people are now starting to realise Ryanair has a policy of attacking its workforce to keep us subdued like mushrooms keep us in the dark and feed us ****.
But the change starts with all of us.Ring your old friends in Ryanair you can trust ask them to get involved to defend our ts and cs.Latest rumur is canaries bases will be 5'2 5'3
As bad as they are the business model that is Ryanair will bring them lower unless we do something.
Every little thing we do to change this will help.dont just join REPA or BALAP/IALPA but do something to help out...
As bad as they are the rumours of 5 3 is our oppurtunity to organise.
Its already a worry that commercial gain is more important than safety to management.
No exodus or people leaving will change anything. we all have to stand up to these bullying tactics for our profession and careers
You are right.I think it has got to the stage in Ryanair that everyone agrees we need a Union.
people are now starting to realise Ryanair has a policy of attacking its workforce to keep us subdued like mushrooms keep us in the dark and feed us ****.
But the change starts with all of us.Ring your old friends in Ryanair you can trust ask them to get involved to defend our ts and cs.Latest rumur is canaries bases will be 5'2 5'3
As bad as they are the business model that is Ryanair will bring them lower unless we do something.
Every little thing we do to change this will help.dont just join REPA or BALAP/IALPA but do something to help out...
As bad as they are the rumours of 5 3 is our oppurtunity to organise.
Its already a worry that commercial gain is more important than safety to management.
No exodus or people leaving will change anything. we all have to stand up to these bullying tactics for our profession and careers
Last edited by widered; 18th Jan 2011 at 18:16.
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All Ryanair destinations. Wouldn't be surprised if PB turned up at at least one of those asking some hostile questions to RYR crew there.
Did it before at Stansted info sessions, will do it again.
Did it before at Stansted info sessions, will do it again.
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widered,
i love you enthusiasm i really do but a union in ryanair....not going to happen with this management.
the only thing that we can do is ask the FO's to turn down the command and put up with their idle threats. they are going to come massively unstuck if they can't get the command upgrades required to fill these S**T hole bases. Unfortunately there are FO's out there who's sole target is to be a captain within 3/4 years fair enough if your 35+ but these guys who are 25ish for gods sake you are going to be flying a plane for the next 30 years of your life relax and enjoy the fact the captain takes all the responsibility. all the FO needs to do is turn up on time, fill in all the paperwork, maybe bring a paper (there are free ones outside the crew room!) and a coffee for the captain and enjoy the view.....simples!
As for the 5/3 i don't believe it....they went that way a few years back and it doesn't work they end up having to work the captains to the limit of their 100 hours and come the new year they don't have any hours remaining. Oh and to help put a spanner in the works stop taking the extra cash when they offer you a flight so that some guy on his working week gets a bloody stby! you all moan about being put on stby but you are all happy to take the money of someone else....hmmm
I would love things to change but there are so many selfish people out there who can't see the wood from the trees. think its time we all started looking after each other.....i hate to quote David Cameron but i think this is one thing he has got right
"You can call it liberalism. You can call it empowerment. You can call it freedom. You can call it responsibility. I call it the Big Society"
here endeth the lesson
U737
i love you enthusiasm i really do but a union in ryanair....not going to happen with this management.
the only thing that we can do is ask the FO's to turn down the command and put up with their idle threats. they are going to come massively unstuck if they can't get the command upgrades required to fill these S**T hole bases. Unfortunately there are FO's out there who's sole target is to be a captain within 3/4 years fair enough if your 35+ but these guys who are 25ish for gods sake you are going to be flying a plane for the next 30 years of your life relax and enjoy the fact the captain takes all the responsibility. all the FO needs to do is turn up on time, fill in all the paperwork, maybe bring a paper (there are free ones outside the crew room!) and a coffee for the captain and enjoy the view.....simples!
As for the 5/3 i don't believe it....they went that way a few years back and it doesn't work they end up having to work the captains to the limit of their 100 hours and come the new year they don't have any hours remaining. Oh and to help put a spanner in the works stop taking the extra cash when they offer you a flight so that some guy on his working week gets a bloody stby! you all moan about being put on stby but you are all happy to take the money of someone else....hmmm
I would love things to change but there are so many selfish people out there who can't see the wood from the trees. think its time we all started looking after each other.....i hate to quote David Cameron but i think this is one thing he has got right
"You can call it liberalism. You can call it empowerment. You can call it freedom. You can call it responsibility. I call it the Big Society"
here endeth the lesson
U737
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I had a phone call on my leave days (which I stupidly answered) and got a bo*****ng for the week before Christmas, you remember the one with all the snow and airport closures.....I felt so valued!
I have always been against unions and strikes but I'm quite pro now.
I have always been against unions and strikes but I'm quite pro now.
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Unregistered737
That is exactly the attitude management like to promote despondency between us,
It is possible. we just need to start believing it.
Do you think anything ever got done with that attitude,Pilots have been in worse situations with management as I said before the Allied pilots association in American Airlines,
Do you think the Jet2 lads said the same thing before they got BALPA recognition.
If its not possible why did management make such an effort during the last recognition campaign to stop it happening.They now its possible as so we need to believe it.
Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out.
That is exactly the attitude management like to promote despondency between us,
It is possible. we just need to start believing it.
Do you think anything ever got done with that attitude,Pilots have been in worse situations with management as I said before the Allied pilots association in American Airlines,
Do you think the Jet2 lads said the same thing before they got BALPA recognition.
If its not possible why did management make such an effort during the last recognition campaign to stop it happening.They now its possible as so we need to believe it.
Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out.
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beernice
The ryanair.com website has been updated in the last few days saying that DEC's are now considered.....A sign of the lies.... of bellew and obrien.... a sign that sleep IS being lost!???? 
I agree with you that not too much sleep is being lost byhole David OBrien and P Bellew but for certain, they are NOT sleeping comfortably!!!!!
70-80 confirmed means for definite few hundred, if not a heck of a lot more, seriously considering their options!
Furthermore on a postiive note, after the extremity of the SHAFTING that FR pilots have gotten especially the Permanent Ryanair pilots, one thing is becoming more clear month-by-month i.e. pilot loyalty and adherence, and conformity and acceptance of suppression is running EXTREMELY THIN!!
And as WIDERED stated
ETC ETC ETC. This is becoming a strong thread in the toughts and minds of the pilot workforce who has been in FR long enuf to feel the hot poker in the which ryanair has dished out!
About 70-80 confirmed resignations in the last 6 months. Or about 3%, the expected attrition rate. I don't think too much sleep is being lost.
I agree with you that not too much sleep is being lost by
hole David OBrien and P Bellew but for certain, they are NOT sleeping comfortably!!!!!70-80 confirmed means for definite few hundred, if not a heck of a lot more, seriously considering their options!
Furthermore on a postiive note, after the extremity of the SHAFTING that FR pilots have gotten especially the Permanent Ryanair pilots, one thing is becoming more clear month-by-month i.e. pilot loyalty and adherence, and conformity and acceptance of suppression is running EXTREMELY THIN!!
And as WIDERED stated
keep us subdued like mushrooms keep us in the dark and feed us ****
which ryanair has dished out!
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I was called to work a day off and said no, for my trouble I got 5 standby days on my next duty week.... either way as beer said, the hours even out so if I loose 20 hours this week, I gain it on another but it doesn't make it ok for crewcontrol to screw you and because of this, I will say no again as I will not help the people out who screwed me.
In terms of the roster, well RYR clearly want the 5/3 for the summer, otherwise they wouldn't continue to offer this on new bases. If you look at the new FTL proposals which BALPA are fighting then airlines can utilise they're crew more in busy months, which means more rostered days required, which could mean a nail in the coffin to the 5/4, so don't brush this one under the carpet!
See yous guys at the EK road show!
for me, I'm actively looking elsewhere, the CU is on the horizon and I'm not too interested in being bonded, being sent to some **** hole on a 5/3 where I can't commute home and we all know what its like to try and get to a base you want to be... atleast Denise is gone, but no doubt shes been replaced by some one of similar personality, although I do hope not and an improvement is made in this area.
If they had a list and people got where they wanted to go eventually then this would make a lot of people happier, just now, theres too much uncertainty.
In terms of the roster, well RYR clearly want the 5/3 for the summer, otherwise they wouldn't continue to offer this on new bases. If you look at the new FTL proposals which BALPA are fighting then airlines can utilise they're crew more in busy months, which means more rostered days required, which could mean a nail in the coffin to the 5/4, so don't brush this one under the carpet!
See yous guys at the EK road show!
for me, I'm actively looking elsewhere, the CU is on the horizon and I'm not too interested in being bonded, being sent to some **** hole on a 5/3 where I can't commute home and we all know what its like to try and get to a base you want to be... atleast Denise is gone, but no doubt shes been replaced by some one of similar personality, although I do hope not and an improvement is made in this area. If they had a list and people got where they wanted to go eventually then this would make a lot of people happier, just now, theres too much uncertainty.
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i think there are ways of standing up to them without the need for a union.
firstly stop the FO's taking command upgrades....no captains, no planes flying If maverick777 is right and they are opening up DEC's that surely means they thought all their FO's would co-operate but they are not...quel surprise!
secondly captains on fixed contracts need to stop being so greedy and taking the extra cash for working a day off. this then means they can't get the people to cover stbys and the whole thing falls apart when someone calls in sick or goes out of hours....stick to your own bloody roster!
thirdly this whole brookfield thing is a complete scam, its barely on the limits of being legal...this extract is taken from HMRC and is used to determine whether or not you are employed or self employed.....
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
From where i stand....i am an employee!
surely a quick email to HMRC would show that this whole thing is a joke and not quite kosher. Once we do finally get rid of Brookfield this opens up a whole new arena for the unions to come in and keep Vexed happy seeing as we will finally be on common ground.
is this not standing up for what is "right and fair" and the "sum of small efforts every day"? we don't need a union...we need to play them at their own game.
see easy! all done without a union in sight!
firstly stop the FO's taking command upgrades....no captains, no planes flying If maverick777 is right and they are opening up DEC's that surely means they thought all their FO's would co-operate but they are not...quel surprise!
secondly captains on fixed contracts need to stop being so greedy and taking the extra cash for working a day off. this then means they can't get the people to cover stbys and the whole thing falls apart when someone calls in sick or goes out of hours....stick to your own bloody roster!
thirdly this whole brookfield thing is a complete scam, its barely on the limits of being legal...this extract is taken from HMRC and is used to determine whether or not you are employed or self employed.....
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
From where i stand....i am an employee!
surely a quick email to HMRC would show that this whole thing is a joke and not quite kosher. Once we do finally get rid of Brookfield this opens up a whole new arena for the unions to come in and keep Vexed happy seeing as we will finally be on common ground.
is this not standing up for what is "right and fair" and the "sum of small efforts every day"? we don't need a union...we need to play them at their own game.
see easy! all done without a union in sight!
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any union would have to be RYR wide - not just UK pilots, otherwise they'll just close / dramatically downsize the UK bases and send the planes abroad. And the problem will remain.
In the meantime - as stated above - DONT WORK ON DAYS OFF.
If you're the type who finds it hard to say no to the sweet well mannered phone monkeys in crew control / rostering then dont answer your phone to unknown / irish numbers when not on standby.
If you do, you're shafting the rest of us and you're one of them, not one of us.
As for command upgrades, i couldn't be less interested. Even if they threaten me with a base change whether i upgrade or not (the latest tactic?), i still wont. Hope others feel the same.
In the meantime - as stated above - DONT WORK ON DAYS OFF.
If you're the type who finds it hard to say no to the sweet well mannered phone monkeys in crew control / rostering then dont answer your phone to unknown / irish numbers when not on standby.
If you do, you're shafting the rest of us and you're one of them, not one of us.
As for command upgrades, i couldn't be less interested. Even if they threaten me with a base change whether i upgrade or not (the latest tactic?), i still wont. Hope others feel the same.
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Have heard of it but don't know anyone personally. FO's telling their base TRE they don't feel ready for an upgrade. Moved to another base 3 months later due to "operational reasons".
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widered,
You're very well right. That's the only way to go. But you will find it very hard to convince other fellow pilots to think like you.
I think the only way to improve your T&C's it to hit the company where it hurts them the most. And that is money. So, going on stike will probably be the only option to make management change. If they see that they are loosing money they will change. They feel now very strong because they see the pilot group very weak and that they can do whatever they want with you guys.
You're very well right. That's the only way to go. But you will find it very hard to convince other fellow pilots to think like you.
I think the only way to improve your T&C's it to hit the company where it hurts them the most. And that is money. So, going on stike will probably be the only option to make management change. If they see that they are loosing money they will change. They feel now very strong because they see the pilot group very weak and that they can do whatever they want with you guys.