Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
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Bounty - in the old days before beancounters, bonus hunters, micro managers took charge F/O's were promoted and sent to outstations to serve their command penance, normally for 1 to 2 years. For example at Airtours A320 upgrades went to a new BFS base and B757 upgrades to GLA. In the end it went full cycle and F.O's locally recruited got Commands and filled the base.
The problem with FR and ESY as you say is that you have to depart to far flung places and then if your lucky start moving closer and closer when the opportunity arises. It's not easy for sure but spare a thought for the average joe public who you see commuting on the motorway at 0500 in the morning or on the train to london at 0600 in the morning. Unfortunately it's the world we live in, a lot of these folk have no choice - you perhaps do
The problem with FR and ESY as you say is that you have to depart to far flung places and then if your lucky start moving closer and closer when the opportunity arises. It's not easy for sure but spare a thought for the average joe public who you see commuting on the motorway at 0500 in the morning or on the train to london at 0600 in the morning. Unfortunately it's the world we live in, a lot of these folk have no choice - you perhaps do
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Thank you Maverick, I appreciate your comments. We're all trying to make a living in this industry I'm sure. Although as you feel this line of discussion is off topic I'll take my leave. Graciously and without shouting.
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Sorry couldn´t resist keeping it 'off topic' a while longer.
Maverick 777...........was interested by your post so did a quick check on your history.....haaaahaaaaaahaaaa you made my day mate
Amazing what a few years at RYR will do to your level of cynicism...
Get back in your hole....you were raping the system long before us matey....
quote;
Maverick 777...........was interested by your post so did a quick check on your history.....haaaahaaaaaahaaaa you made my day mate
Amazing what a few years at RYR will do to your level of cynicism...
Get back in your hole....you were raping the system long before us matey....
quote;
Hi guys,
I recently sat the simcheck & interview at EMA and i was successful.
Its clear that all of you who have replied to this thread are pi**ed off with your experience or shocked at the reports from first hand guys/ladies.
All i can say is that its been almost a year since i finished my initial basic pilot training. I have scraped and scrounged and begged at the door of every single airline website, HR department, recrutiment agency, and any measily damn contact i can possibly find in this tight-ass aviation industry and eventually i worked my b*lls off to get a shot at a ryanair simcheck and interview.
There are THOUSANDS of guys and girls out there who would ravage and scavenge and adore a chance to work for flybe, BMI, BMI regional, BACitiexpress, EasyJet, AerLingus, British Airways, CityJet, Monarch, First Choice, etc etc you name the airline. The bottom line is there is VERY LITTLE or nothing out there. Only a select few receive a positive feedback from an on-line app form but even then the waiting times are enormous and as each day passes your licences and hours dwindle and dwindle into expiry.
My secret is that i have now an opportunity to get on with my aviation career - all be it - with an employer who will pay me nothing and inflict unacceptable waiting times upon me (i mean end of type rating to line training) - BUT i will think long-term! Thats my way of looking at it. I will suffer the burden of the financial bottom-less pit for a few years - but in the long term i know it will pay off. I will get a "Next Generation" 737 type rating, EFIS experience, work the maximum 100 per month and 900hours per year and my logbook will start to fill up again - with the best experience. I will also fly to small airports with non-precision approaches in the middle of nowhere aswell as the big ones like STN.
I'm almost 29 now and by the time i'm 33/34 i will have 3,000 to 4000 plus hours and will be able to take my experience ANYWHERE in the world as long as i have the right to work there.
Its an absolute BITCH but its a start. The "bank of Dad and Mum" is a lost cause - it's daily strife to 'keep-the-show-on-the-road' - but we will find a way. I have struggled to get this far.....AM I GONNA GIVE UP? No!!!!!
Just stick at it guys - keep talking and researching - but make sure its to someone WHO ACTAULLY WORKS for Ryanair and not a bad-mouthing outsider.
Good luck to you all in 2006 and keep the faith.
MAVERICK777
I recently sat the simcheck & interview at EMA and i was successful.
Its clear that all of you who have replied to this thread are pi**ed off with your experience or shocked at the reports from first hand guys/ladies.
All i can say is that its been almost a year since i finished my initial basic pilot training. I have scraped and scrounged and begged at the door of every single airline website, HR department, recrutiment agency, and any measily damn contact i can possibly find in this tight-ass aviation industry and eventually i worked my b*lls off to get a shot at a ryanair simcheck and interview.
There are THOUSANDS of guys and girls out there who would ravage and scavenge and adore a chance to work for flybe, BMI, BMI regional, BACitiexpress, EasyJet, AerLingus, British Airways, CityJet, Monarch, First Choice, etc etc you name the airline. The bottom line is there is VERY LITTLE or nothing out there. Only a select few receive a positive feedback from an on-line app form but even then the waiting times are enormous and as each day passes your licences and hours dwindle and dwindle into expiry.
My secret is that i have now an opportunity to get on with my aviation career - all be it - with an employer who will pay me nothing and inflict unacceptable waiting times upon me (i mean end of type rating to line training) - BUT i will think long-term! Thats my way of looking at it. I will suffer the burden of the financial bottom-less pit for a few years - but in the long term i know it will pay off. I will get a "Next Generation" 737 type rating, EFIS experience, work the maximum 100 per month and 900hours per year and my logbook will start to fill up again - with the best experience. I will also fly to small airports with non-precision approaches in the middle of nowhere aswell as the big ones like STN.
I'm almost 29 now and by the time i'm 33/34 i will have 3,000 to 4000 plus hours and will be able to take my experience ANYWHERE in the world as long as i have the right to work there.
Its an absolute BITCH but its a start. The "bank of Dad and Mum" is a lost cause - it's daily strife to 'keep-the-show-on-the-road' - but we will find a way. I have struggled to get this far.....AM I GONNA GIVE UP? No!!!!!
Just stick at it guys - keep talking and researching - but make sure its to someone WHO ACTAULLY WORKS for Ryanair and not a bad-mouthing outsider.
Good luck to you all in 2006 and keep the faith.
MAVERICK777
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Ahh Maverick 777. Experienced an Epiphany then or gradually seen through the BS and seen where it all leads.
Unfortunately I found myself needing a job earlier this year and was unable to contemplate RYR as an experienced 737 FO due to the airline's prediliction for recruiting others on the same journey as yourself.
That having been said (and more on-topic), why is it necessarily a bad thing for an exodus from the airline? Far better it be voluntary than compulsory (trust me, I know). Economically things are far from certain across Europe and if things go bad it may keep those who wish to stay in employment.
If the economy does hold up well (big if, but anyway.....) it may force the airline to listen to your grievances if they aren't able to fly the programme.
As I say is it necessarily a bad thing loads of people leaving?
Unfortunately I found myself needing a job earlier this year and was unable to contemplate RYR as an experienced 737 FO due to the airline's prediliction for recruiting others on the same journey as yourself.
That having been said (and more on-topic), why is it necessarily a bad thing for an exodus from the airline? Far better it be voluntary than compulsory (trust me, I know). Economically things are far from certain across Europe and if things go bad it may keep those who wish to stay in employment.
If the economy does hold up well (big if, but anyway.....) it may force the airline to listen to your grievances if they aren't able to fly the programme.
As I say is it necessarily a bad thing loads of people leaving?
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Hey people, agree with most of the stuff in this but we all knew, well i did anyway that HR in RYR leaves a lot to be desired, but still over 2000 of us signed the dotted line having heard the horror stories. Who's to blame for this??
Kind of an unrelated question here for the people with the actual experience rather than Joe Soap hearing from a TRE who knows John who plays golf with Paul. If you have the old Brookfield contract not linked in with the accountants
in Dublin, when you renew it after its 5 years is up are you given the new one or will they simply ask for your records of tax paid and let you stay doing what your doing. Someone on here must have renewed recently and would appreciate the info.
Cheers
Kind of an unrelated question here for the people with the actual experience rather than Joe Soap hearing from a TRE who knows John who plays golf with Paul. If you have the old Brookfield contract not linked in with the accountants
in Dublin, when you renew it after its 5 years is up are you given the new one or will they simply ask for your records of tax paid and let you stay doing what your doing. Someone on here must have renewed recently and would appreciate the info.Cheers
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I was offered a command at Fr and turned them down.
Having heard enough of what went on there I was not going to sign on the line.
12 weeks later I was in the employ of a company where abuse of staff is not an issue and one is paid what it states on the contract, no "intermediaries" required, nice hotel for the paid sim etc etc ...
Well worth the wait, former colleagues were ensnared and have been trying (and in some cases suceeding) to escape ever since.
The real shame for everybody is that it has reduced the employment value of a 737NG type industry wide rating to peanuts.
Having heard enough of what went on there I was not going to sign on the line.
12 weeks later I was in the employ of a company where abuse of staff is not an issue and one is paid what it states on the contract, no "intermediaries" required, nice hotel for the paid sim etc etc ...
Well worth the wait, former colleagues were ensnared and have been trying (and in some cases suceeding) to escape ever since.
The real shame for everybody is that it has reduced the employment value of a 737NG type industry wide rating to peanuts.
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If one is capable of ignoring all standards of decent behaviour, Yes go work for the VIRUS it will ensure your inevitable AND required next move will be a further slide down the greasy pole of T & C'S
When will you wannabees ever learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When will you wannabees ever learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I'm tired of people complaining about "newbies" dragging down T&C. Some people have no choice. They need to find work to pay of their loans since flight training comes at the price of a small apartment these days. I find that most people complaining did their training years ago in times when flight training was sponsored by an airline and type ratings were free. The world has evolved, you need to learn how to deal with that.
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d105,
All very nice to rant but then don't complain, when you eventually make the LHS, that the wages don't cover the bills, the company has you flying so much that there is no time for any form of social life and the company demand you live where they tell you to, treating you as much of an object as the aircraft based there.
The world does indeed evolve but why should that be a reason to prostitute our profession to a point where pilots in charge of $100 million dollar assets and 150+ lives get paid less than a bus driver?
Enjoy you evolving world, luckily by the time you claim we will all have to get used to it I will be in retirement lamenting on how the industry has declined to such depths fuelled by a company that holds its most important employees in such contempt as they have consistently shown their willingness to pay for qualifications the company should be providing for free.
Due to my companies Staff Travel scheme, which was negotiated, in an adult fashion, over many years I will never have to relive the horrors of the RYR cattle, slave truck combination. Taken once, never again.
Finally, always remember: Work to live, don't live to work.
All very nice to rant but then don't complain, when you eventually make the LHS, that the wages don't cover the bills, the company has you flying so much that there is no time for any form of social life and the company demand you live where they tell you to, treating you as much of an object as the aircraft based there.
The world does indeed evolve but why should that be a reason to prostitute our profession to a point where pilots in charge of $100 million dollar assets and 150+ lives get paid less than a bus driver?
Enjoy you evolving world, luckily by the time you claim we will all have to get used to it I will be in retirement lamenting on how the industry has declined to such depths fuelled by a company that holds its most important employees in such contempt as they have consistently shown their willingness to pay for qualifications the company should be providing for free.
Due to my companies Staff Travel scheme, which was negotiated, in an adult fashion, over many years I will never have to relive the horrors of the RYR cattle, slave truck combination. Taken once, never again.
Finally, always remember: Work to live, don't live to work.
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As a collective, new commers into this industry have no say, when these schemes first presented themselves then it was upto the experienced guys in the industry to stand up and be counted.
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The world does indeed evolve but why should that be a reason to prostitute our profession to a point where pilots in charge of $100 million dollar assets and 150+ lives get paid less than a bus driver?
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Perhaps I should have said Tube driver, as much as Bob Crow is an objectionable character, you don't see Tube Drivers paying for their training and their pay is very good as well.
Edited to add that RYR is not the only problem, the FO on the Colgan Air flight in America was paid $21000 per annum. Less than a hotel dishwasher.
The rot needs to stop now, not just with the Wannabees, they are a small part of the problem. The general, fare paying public needs to realise that if they truely want paid professionals in the front of their aircraft the 99p fare has to go and be replaced by sensible fares for a safe operation.
Edited to add that RYR is not the only problem, the FO on the Colgan Air flight in America was paid $21000 per annum. Less than a hotel dishwasher.
The rot needs to stop now, not just with the Wannabees, they are a small part of the problem. The general, fare paying public needs to realise that if they truely want paid professionals in the front of their aircraft the 99p fare has to go and be replaced by sensible fares for a safe operation.
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anybody got address of National Express Coaches/trains?
Always fancied driving an express train, the speed, the glamour, the responsability & now I am told the the salary too!
Always fancied driving an express train, the speed, the glamour, the responsability & now I am told the the salary too!
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Perhaps I should have said Tube driver, as much as Bob Crow is an objectionable character, you don't see Tube Drivers paying for their training and their pay is very good as well.
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Lets see now, how will this one play out..hypothetically speaking of course.
If the rather bizarre memo of a few weeks ago is anything to go by, I reckon PB has crunched his numbers and as result could possibly be feeling a little bit concerned with regard to summer 2011. Between the end of this year and into next, I believe 47 new machines will be arriving from Seattle. I'm not sure what disposal rates are, however I believe 6 are certainly earmarked for withdrawl towards the end of the year. Any more will depend largely on the market, which I reckon is pretty flat. So you either store or fly your spare birds...if they are spare that is? The likelihood is that more bases are on the agenda, most probably southern or eastern european potholes with a 5/3 roster. Add the expansion of current bases who will be willing to drop their drawers quicker than a lady of the night when Ryanair 'negociates' contracts. If crew shortages do result due to exodus/lack of Captains/failure to attract OCCs/Not enough upgrades/....add other variables.... then I reckon the whole kit and caboodle will be on a 5/3 by April/May 2011.
The likes of Emirates, Etihad, Flydubai etc may just be getting in before everyone else. I don't think the figures in the context of those who are leaving will be apparent until late this year/early next. At that point we may be adding a few more airlines to the equasion, which will make things interesting. So how will management react I wonder? Fairly tactfully I would imagine. There will be no universal pay raise, transparent base policy or improved contract offer. My guess is they will address the areas that need addressing. "So we have lost the majority of pilots from X,Y and Z..yet there are no real problems at A,B or C...then sort X,Y and Z out!" Where do I get the reasoning? Ryanair have capatalised on a number of 737 operators going to the dogs in the last two or so years. As a result they were able to attract a number of DECs to OCCs. A large number who I have spoken with were actually asked where they were looking to be based. Many got where or close to where they wanted. Complete contrast to new upgrades. Why...well I reckon, once again, concern was shown from above. "We need these f**king Captains for summer 2010, make sure you get them!" Could I be wrong?
Don't forget, O'Leary's prime objective is to drive down pretty much everything, bar the share price. Much of what he says is drivel, however I do actually believe him when he suggests that his goal is for the price of a ticket on one of his flights to eventually equate to zero. He is grasping more and more control of the market, and driving down costs with it. When it comes to pilots, he has no interest in making this a touchy feely place of work. Somebody used the analogy of staff being equated little more value than the machinary that they operate. Well that's the culture of the company to be perfectly honest, same goes for the passengers, the airports, the regulators, the politicians..whoever. However back to the impending pilot question. If O'Leary is met with a crew shortage which potentially could lead to planes not pushing back, then he'll firefight it. He won't be embrassing the only real thing that he refused to embrase when Herb Kelleher shared the secrets to a successful low cost airline all those years ago. That would represent a major upheavel in culture; and that is now well and truely embedded within Ryanair. It wouldn't even change if O'Leary walked tomorrow. It isn't one person.
You know, I laugh when people exclaim on here that we should all grow some backbone and stand up to management. They obviously don't work here. It's been tried before collectively (the IALPA debacle in Dublin....and before anyone starts, people were made to look like idiots here) and individually. Individuals are just subjected to vendetta and driven out. I don't like the expression, however it's 'divide and conquer' and O'Leary has conquered many, to the point that there will never be a collective voice or a collective solution in the favour of the pilots. It also pisses me off that people come on and point the finger at the cadets for turning T&Cs into a joke. Sure there are one or two 'bank of Mummy and Daddys' lurking in every crewroom, but a lot of guys who I know are here because they were out of options. Nobody gets into flying and has the sole aim to join Ryanair! Self improvement is dead and burried and hell will freeze over before airline sponsorship returns. Therefore you can't have a gripe with the likes of Maverick777, who had a plan to get a few thousand JAR25 hours and then get out.
To be honest, as rough cut that it may be, many still are happy to be here. I will include myself in that one. However if it works for you and you can sail clear of the sh1t then no problem. There are hundreds, maybe a thousand; possibly more, that feel this way. It really is a story with two sides, if you like.
If the rather bizarre memo of a few weeks ago is anything to go by, I reckon PB has crunched his numbers and as result could possibly be feeling a little bit concerned with regard to summer 2011. Between the end of this year and into next, I believe 47 new machines will be arriving from Seattle. I'm not sure what disposal rates are, however I believe 6 are certainly earmarked for withdrawl towards the end of the year. Any more will depend largely on the market, which I reckon is pretty flat. So you either store or fly your spare birds...if they are spare that is? The likelihood is that more bases are on the agenda, most probably southern or eastern european potholes with a 5/3 roster. Add the expansion of current bases who will be willing to drop their drawers quicker than a lady of the night when Ryanair 'negociates' contracts. If crew shortages do result due to exodus/lack of Captains/failure to attract OCCs/Not enough upgrades/....add other variables.... then I reckon the whole kit and caboodle will be on a 5/3 by April/May 2011.
The likes of Emirates, Etihad, Flydubai etc may just be getting in before everyone else. I don't think the figures in the context of those who are leaving will be apparent until late this year/early next. At that point we may be adding a few more airlines to the equasion, which will make things interesting. So how will management react I wonder? Fairly tactfully I would imagine. There will be no universal pay raise, transparent base policy or improved contract offer. My guess is they will address the areas that need addressing. "So we have lost the majority of pilots from X,Y and Z..yet there are no real problems at A,B or C...then sort X,Y and Z out!" Where do I get the reasoning? Ryanair have capatalised on a number of 737 operators going to the dogs in the last two or so years. As a result they were able to attract a number of DECs to OCCs. A large number who I have spoken with were actually asked where they were looking to be based. Many got where or close to where they wanted. Complete contrast to new upgrades. Why...well I reckon, once again, concern was shown from above. "We need these f**king Captains for summer 2010, make sure you get them!" Could I be wrong?
Don't forget, O'Leary's prime objective is to drive down pretty much everything, bar the share price. Much of what he says is drivel, however I do actually believe him when he suggests that his goal is for the price of a ticket on one of his flights to eventually equate to zero. He is grasping more and more control of the market, and driving down costs with it. When it comes to pilots, he has no interest in making this a touchy feely place of work. Somebody used the analogy of staff being equated little more value than the machinary that they operate. Well that's the culture of the company to be perfectly honest, same goes for the passengers, the airports, the regulators, the politicians..whoever. However back to the impending pilot question. If O'Leary is met with a crew shortage which potentially could lead to planes not pushing back, then he'll firefight it. He won't be embrassing the only real thing that he refused to embrase when Herb Kelleher shared the secrets to a successful low cost airline all those years ago. That would represent a major upheavel in culture; and that is now well and truely embedded within Ryanair. It wouldn't even change if O'Leary walked tomorrow. It isn't one person.
You know, I laugh when people exclaim on here that we should all grow some backbone and stand up to management. They obviously don't work here. It's been tried before collectively (the IALPA debacle in Dublin....and before anyone starts, people were made to look like idiots here) and individually. Individuals are just subjected to vendetta and driven out. I don't like the expression, however it's 'divide and conquer' and O'Leary has conquered many, to the point that there will never be a collective voice or a collective solution in the favour of the pilots. It also pisses me off that people come on and point the finger at the cadets for turning T&Cs into a joke. Sure there are one or two 'bank of Mummy and Daddys' lurking in every crewroom, but a lot of guys who I know are here because they were out of options. Nobody gets into flying and has the sole aim to join Ryanair! Self improvement is dead and burried and hell will freeze over before airline sponsorship returns. Therefore you can't have a gripe with the likes of Maverick777, who had a plan to get a few thousand JAR25 hours and then get out.
To be honest, as rough cut that it may be, many still are happy to be here. I will include myself in that one. However if it works for you and you can sail clear of the sh1t then no problem. There are hundreds, maybe a thousand; possibly more, that feel this way. It really is a story with two sides, if you like.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 12th Sep 2010 at 16:03.
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Callsign Kilo - Much to my regret I think the time to win concessions from Ryanair was 2009 and 2010 and BALPA knew that. From 2011 on there are relatively few deliveries and more than enough FOs who will fill the command seats.
The detail on Ryanair's aircraft delivery which is publicly available on the company's website, Boeing's website, and USA Securities and Exchange Commission filings shows that there will be 272 aircraft operating in Summer 2011. That is just 22 more than we have at Ryanair this weekend and 28 less than added this year. Just google SECINFO dot com and look for Ryanair 20f. There is a vast array of data that any employee or intending cadet should read - much more than in the European annual report. 302 pages - but incredible detail about pilots.
Assuming that it remains at a crewing of less than 5 CPs per a/c that means an extra 110 CPS for summer 11. If we allow for 70 people CP leaving in next 6 months - same as now - then that is 180 extra Captains.
The command upgrade courses are running at 24 a month - and they are filling them.
Ryanair added 50 aircraft in 2010 and went from 198 last summer 2009 - to 250 in Summer 2010. The Direct Entry Cps hiring went badly - just ask any line trainer.
I think the frightening part is that PB has managed to really screw our conditions down far harder than anyone before. He introduced an all contractors policy, new leave, tax compliance and god help you if you are sick. Worst of the lot is the deeply unpopular 5/3. He does not look well lately - so if we are lucky he will leave soon as rumoured.
I cannot work out how Ryanair actually managed to operate 250 aircraft in 2010 with so few staff in my base - but they did - and that bodes ill for any improvement in terms for 2011-2013.
The detail on Ryanair's aircraft delivery which is publicly available on the company's website, Boeing's website, and USA Securities and Exchange Commission filings shows that there will be 272 aircraft operating in Summer 2011. That is just 22 more than we have at Ryanair this weekend and 28 less than added this year. Just google SECINFO dot com and look for Ryanair 20f. There is a vast array of data that any employee or intending cadet should read - much more than in the European annual report. 302 pages - but incredible detail about pilots.
Assuming that it remains at a crewing of less than 5 CPs per a/c that means an extra 110 CPS for summer 11. If we allow for 70 people CP leaving in next 6 months - same as now - then that is 180 extra Captains.
The command upgrade courses are running at 24 a month - and they are filling them.
Ryanair added 50 aircraft in 2010 and went from 198 last summer 2009 - to 250 in Summer 2010. The Direct Entry Cps hiring went badly - just ask any line trainer.
I think the frightening part is that PB has managed to really screw our conditions down far harder than anyone before. He introduced an all contractors policy, new leave, tax compliance and god help you if you are sick. Worst of the lot is the deeply unpopular 5/3. He does not look well lately - so if we are lucky he will leave soon as rumoured.
I cannot work out how Ryanair actually managed to operate 250 aircraft in 2010 with so few staff in my base - but they did - and that bodes ill for any improvement in terms for 2011-2013.
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Starting pay for London tube captain £40k. With 6 weeks off and 35hrs /week = £24.84/hr. RYR Captain €130 - €4.5 (training) = €125.5 = £103.95/hr.
(A mate of mine works for TFL as a tube driver and he also doesn't like Bob Crow)