Flybe Terms and Conditions

[keepongoing]

Funnywhatyouforget

I like many of you can only too clearly recollect the joy at having been offered my first flying job with Flybe, and I have to say that that joy has stayed (apart from the odd hiccup!) with me throughout my time with them. No they don't pay the best (but who else has been offered a pay rise this year), no they don't have the best T & C's (they are trying to improve these in a very difficult financial period) but in a fairly short time I have flown both types, gained my command and had fantastic fun with a tremendous group of people...I don't believe I could have done that with any other airline in the UK. Now its time to move on, but not with any bad feeling towards what I consider to be as well managed, ambitious and employee orientated airline in not just the UK, but the World. I fully anticipate the deluge of clever, witty put downs to this view which will no doubt follow....but try and recollect your own joy at the initial offer of a job with Flybe and consider if you have achieved what you expected to....I think most of you will have. The grass is always greener (except in some parts of the World!) etc., and if you can't settle for that then move on and find out for yourself!

[Tinytim]

It never ceases to amaze me what a dumb lot pilots are for a supposedly intelligent bunch of people.

When those of us who were in BA (Dis!)Connect saw Jim French marching over the horizon with his scarce concealed contempt for pilots and indeed Balpa and any form of collective negotiation mechanism those of us who could...got the hell out. It seems were were right...
I have never looked back and in a perverse way I guess I am grateful to the bearded one for needling me out of my comfort zone. The same is true of all my former colleagues who ran as far and fast as they could and in most cases
are infinitely better off than had we stayed at Flybe.

It is quite obvious from the posters in this forum that nothing has changed
and that the efficient Flybe mechanism is extracting the very last ounce of flesh from its pathetically compliant workforce and giving bare minimum in return.
The answer is very simple .......as indeed it always has been. Support your company council, elect articulate representatives and understand that collectively through a strongly supported council within Balpa you can make a bad airline (to work for ) a good one.
Otherwise nothing will change.

[DrumMachine]

People's views on working for Flybe appear very polarised depending on their personal circumstances. I left the RAF just before the downturn and had the hours and relevant experience to apply for almost any airline; I chose Flybe as the location, work patterns and type of flying suited me. I have not been disappointed and hope to be here for 25 more years. The company appear to wish to give us the best T & Cs the business model will allow; however, our BALPA CC seem unwilling to enter into meaningful and realistic negotiations and are hampering any improvements. Think I might just give myself a pay rise and cancel my membership!

[Tinytim]

Drum Machine if I may say so that attitude absolutely typifies my dumb pilot observation........

You dont think much of Balpa........ who can only be as effective as your pretty ineffective company council so you just bottle out and award yourself a paltry pay rise of one percent by cancelling your subscription.

Would not the more intelligent option be to actualy get involved, put yourself forward for election and kick out the wets who seemed to have achieved nothing apart from acceding to every whim of Jimbo???

That way you and doubtless countless others who feel the same as you might just achieve rather more than a one off one percent and make Flybe somwhere people might actualy like to work instead of being compliant yessmen.........

Collectively you can all do something about it..............but frankly with attitudes like that I doubt if you will.

[six-sixty]

The company appear to wish to give us the best T & Cs the business model will allow

and there is the problem then. The company would have us believe business model depends on paying the meanest salaries and terms and conditions in the industry. If we want a humane roster pattern we must pay for it, end of. It does not matter what jam tomorrow commitments may have been made in the past how profitable we are/become, or how hard we work. The foot stays on our collective throat on principle.

Drum machine we all choose who's propaganda to believe, and you have every right to believe the Company's line on Balpa being the stubborn obstacle to the company's benevolence. I don't, and neither do most people I fly with.

Interesting times ahead.

[DrumMachine]

Drum Machine if I may say so that attitude absolutely typifies my dumb pilot observation........

And your's the left-wing thinking that has left our nation in such a mess. Now perhaps we can stop making personal remarks and respect the fact that others have a different opinion.

[Caractacus]

And your's the left-wing thinking that has left our nation in such a mess. Now perhaps we can stop making personal remarks and respect the fact that others have a different opinion.

DrumMachine, if I may so so you are the epitome of the modern sheople like employee. You believe everything your employer says and all will be green in the garden.

It is you who are 'left wing' because you are a happy to sit there and be told what the deal is! I am also ex RAF and left before the downturn in the early 1990's. One thing I learned very quickly in the civvy world is that if you don't stick up for yourself then the company will take advantage of you.

Over the years the airline pilots salary failed to keep up with RPI and. as a result, the profession has been downgraded to little more than that of a London Tube Driver - starting salary is just over £40,000 - and that is purely because pilots are too thick to realise that collective action works!

The only way to keep T&C's in line with other jobs is to join the union and adopt a common cause.

[Desk-pilot]

Some facts

Some facts about Flybe,

It's owned by the 101st richest family in the land, who stand to gain in excess of a further £400 million when it is listed. It is run by an extremely wealthy and bright Scotsman whose 8% stake in the company will be worth in excess of £50 million when it lists. His salary of £400 000 plus bonus and Audi A8 means he will have been paid many multiples of the sums earned by the CEO'S of Lufthansa, BA and other global airlines over the same period. This huge wealth has been generated by crews who are worked currently to within inches of the law on the worst roster pattern and wages in the industry. Captains are paid in line with train drivers, FO's are paid bus driver wages, the aircraft are amongst the most efficient on fuel in the world. The airline has expanded relentlessly on the back of its hard pressed workforce and continues to do so. The pay freeze last year and 0.6% pay rise offered this year attest to the fact that the huge profits being earned are not intended to be used to improve the lot of the workers who have taken Flybe into the big league.

Ask yourself why when the market was last buoyant they were losing almost 10% of their pilots every month and the CAA was becoming concerned about experience levels amongst crews. The terms and conditions are rock bottom and a better deal can be had almost anywhere else.

The management must act now if they are to prevent the biggest exodus the company has ever faced coinciding with their big move into jets and Europe. You can't order $5 billion aeroplanes and then turn around and tell workers there's nothing in the pot without a backlash.

Flybe despite its friendly face is a ruthless juggernaut, every bit as hard nosed as Ryanair and Easyjet. The majority are suddenly waking up to this and their support is moving behind BALPA to address these issues with management before an unparalleled exodus begins.

Desk-pilot

[Serenity]

Year 4 f/o here, and I earn less than the guy who fuels the a/c!!!
The company refuses point blank to improve any scheduling or pay conditions. The list of possible improvements to put us on par with other airlines are too numerous to mention, but here we languish at the bottom of the pile!!

The management say we are a training airline for other jet carriers, don't care if hundreds leave and say if it costs a penny then you can't have it!!

BALPA seem to do bugger all about it!!
They fight for BA perks and pay, even got easyjet a 5-7% pay rise across various levels!!

Flybe crews wait, junior f/o's and senior captains have all stated that they can't take any more and will leave as soon as options are available!

Will Flybe crews grow a spine and stand up for fair conditions or just wither away to other carriers!!

[Coffin Corner]

Serenity that's the same BALPA who screwed over new joiner F/Os to pay the masses a hefty pay rise last time.

[Flightlevel001]

Serenity, Coffin Corner, Desk Pilot... All spot on.

People will leave, maybe the majority don't feel the need to fight for anything that the management will drag its heels over and ultimately fail to deliver. Why bother? The slightest sniff of pastures new and they'll be gone. It sounds selfish, but thats life (and the management certainly wouldn't give a toss).

If this is the way the company wants to conduct its business then let them do it. And as for the Training Academy being able to cope, will it? It only takes a few airlines to open the recruitment flood gates and it wouldn't be unreasonable to forecast up to 100 (at least) 3 month notices ending up on a desk in EXT. If that happens before the Academy is opened (or even after for that matter) then cope they will not...

[mateyboy]

due to their recent orders (30 777's and 50 A380's) Emirates need 500 FO's a year for the next 2-3 years. There will be a mass exodus from Ryanair, Easyjet, bmi, bmibaby and Jet2. Qatar and Etihad will follow suit to compete. The amount of pilots leaving to measure their penis by the size of aircraft they drive, and of course the delightful 46 degree celcius climate, will be phenonamal. the "seat blockers" will be scampering off to the sandpit. Ryanair will suffer, but easy, bmi and bmibay and maybe jet2 not as much cos they are good airlines to work for. but my point is lots of jet jobs. you guys leave and then flybe recruit from the schools and probably make money doing it. and then we have a boom. then in ten years it all goes tits up. then a fiscal stimulus or 2 later then recovery and wham....you can stop moaning about pesky jet flying too early and too late for 70 grand and move onto widebodies and start moaning about 100 grand. and then you retire and truly understand gardening. this industry is up and down and back up again then down..........
anyway...you guys get crew food at flybe....you lucky %£^"&*£*'s

[Coffin Corner]

mateyboy

Now what exactly is your definition of crew food? If your definition is inedible crap then yes we get crew food.

[5 RINGS]

@ Dumb Machine.

This is not about politics, this is about business...

The company actually enjoys a pretty good financial health but has no consideration to its workforce and claims poverty and all the rest the it...in fact just blatantly taking the mick.

Shareholders are equally important to the success of any business as workers. Each side must get its fair share...otherwise...it doesn't work.

[PaulW]

If you think Flybe have the worst terms and conditions in the industry for regional or turbo-prop FOs someone needs to wake up and smell the coffee. If your not happy with the conditions at Flybe then maybe Air SouthWest or Eastern would be better for you...No?

[Otto Throttle]

Personally, I can't wait for the exodus if it gets rid of the continuous whining. Flybe Ts&Cs aren't a government secret, nobody was ever forced to come here, nor was anyone forced to stay. Yet here we have a whole bunch of long-serving whingers, who no doubt have been whinging about the same things ever since they started, but still haven't voted with their feet. Grow a pair as big as your mouths and do one please, then the rest of us can work in peace.

[JB007]

Big Reality Check Required For Some...

Or maybe someone who's worked elsewhere and what FlyBe has to offer works for him/her?!?

If all of the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan. What exactly were you expecting? It's a starter airline, Mr French knows exactly what the score is as does the owner of Loganair when I started, there are 1000's of guys and gals waiting in the wings (pardon the pun) to take your seat if you don't want it!

They've given you your first run on the ladder, some excellent time in your logbook on a good type and a stable job through a serious industry downturn - now if you want some good T&C's, move onto the jets, just as Mr French is expecting you to do (more than likely, as per his business model) and just like we all have done before you, we were all where you are now - get a couple of thousand hours of jet time under your belt, then compare your lifestyle or whatever is important to you...and then you are qualified to moan!

And those that think the CAA are worried about FlyBe's experience levels are those that have just hit the big ego stage about having a few years on a turbo-prop! If it keeps FlyBe flying - the CAA will back them 100% for protecting it's business...their Ops Inspector had to start somewhere too!!!

Right, the all you can eat buffet is about to kick off - where's my Alan Partridge 9" plate...

Cheers
JB

[Coffin Corner]

And I suppose those who have never worked for Flybe are not qualified to comment/moan either, have you ever worked for Flybe JB007?

[5 RINGS]

comparing Flybe to eastern or Air Southwest is utterly irrelevant and fondamentaly wrong...

Without any disrespect towards their employees, flight deck, cabin or ground, these businesses have very little in common. They are not of the same scale, don't meet the same success and don't share the same ambitions.

How many of the guys saying juniors have no right to complain sit high up the seniority list with comfortable salaries if not RAF/Navy/Legacy carrier pensions if not a combination of.

I have worked in the aerospace industry before flying, and the same old management tactics are at work..again...again and again...

Management is laughing when they look at our divided group of workers...this is simply appaulling. Before growing some teeth, pilots should grow a little bit of a brain and a sense of community and common interest.

[Calmcavok]

JB007, as you should probably realise, the situation is not as black and white a picture as you envisage. Whilst Flybe has historically been an airline for those at the extremes of their careers, it has had an opportunity to correct this, and with a fleet potential in excess of 140 airframes within the next few years, it will be pretty big. No longer an airline along the lines of one normally associated with the extremes of one's career, i.e. not in the ASW or Eastern league. At the moment there are in excess of 700 pilots on the seniority list. That will get bigger.

Pay, Scheduling & Pensions are the three major issues at the moment, and with not terribly much effort, a compromise could be found. However, there is no interest from the management at all. The company has grown well under the leadership of a good management team, but also with the hard work of a workforce that, I think is fair to say, have all really bought into the plans that French and the board have laid out. We have won numerous awards, we have been innovative and flexible w.r.t to the severe winters & ash, operating where other airlines have cancelled. Of course this is what we signed up to, but the continuing examples of so many crew going above and beyond are part of the Flybe way.

Put the above into the context of constant great sentiment from the company but, ultimately, virtually zero action towards our betterment in several years, and folk are getting fairly hacked off. Particularly when a 2% payrise offered, actually equates to only 0.3% (and especially after making good profits during a payfreeze), and a 50:50 pension offer transpires for some to be a 70:30 in favour of the company. Negotiation with the union is almost nil and then the info provided from HQ is spun and simplified so that the above appears to be a great deal, when it clearly is not with the revelation of a few more facts omitted in several communique.

Flybe isn't my first airline and at this rate it won't be my last, but that is irrelevant. Many people would like to stay and make a career, regardless of their backgrounds and with a little flexibility from above, it is very possible. With no movement on pay and conditions, many other airlines are much more attractive to so many at Flybe. We need to fix these growing pains.