To all you new cadets at ryan
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Why do you want to fly for Ryan if you dont belong to the privileged? Why dont you apply for a company who gives you the TR and pays you a salary on top? some who provides you with uniform and even coffee is for free?! 
You are what you eat.
So must have been eating noodles...
So must have been eating noodles...
Gender Faculty Specialist
Because those companies don't exist anymore.
And you know what? Some people are just way above that aren't they? Couldn't possibly bring myself down to fly such meagre equipment.
Pathetic.
Gender Faculty Specialist
13thstage, why do you consider flying a turbo prop to be a hobby? That is rather a ridiculous statement.
The Q400 pilots at Flybe, I was one once, are as committed and as professional as any other pilot I know and certainly treat their job as more than a hobby.
Really, what is the difference? It is the same job with the same goals flying in the same airspace to similar destinations as anybody else who flies in Europe.
Ok they don't get paid as much as you lot at Ryanair but they haven't shelled out the tens of thousands of pounds that you need to pay Ryanair to employ you (excuse me, give you a crappy contract). In fact they haven't paid for anything.
Have you even looked at the Fybe payscale?
The Q400 pilots at Flybe, I was one once, are as committed and as professional as any other pilot I know and certainly treat their job as more than a hobby.
Really, what is the difference? It is the same job with the same goals flying in the same airspace to similar destinations as anybody else who flies in Europe.
Ok they don't get paid as much as you lot at Ryanair but they haven't shelled out the tens of thousands of pounds that you need to pay Ryanair to employ you (excuse me, give you a crappy contract). In fact they haven't paid for anything.
Have you even looked at the Fybe payscale?
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Chesty Morgan
I hope you weren't calling me pathetic.
I wouldn't know about TP operators. I was fortunate enough to never fly a TP.
Additionally, I have never paid for a rating.
I am an A320 Captain and in my eyes, there are few jobs that pay for your rating anymore.
Discuss.
I wouldn't know about TP operators. I was fortunate enough to never fly a TP.
Additionally, I have never paid for a rating.
I am an A320 Captain and in my eyes, there are few jobs that pay for your rating anymore.
Discuss.
Gender Faculty Specialist
stansdead, no I wasn't calling you pathetic. That was aimed at the "I wanna fly a jet" mob.
There is nothing unfortunate about flying a turboprop. It's an airliner and you fly it from one airport to another. Just like an Airbus. It doesn't matter in the slightest what form of propulsion it uses.
The problem is that the few jobs that are out , available to newbies, where you don't have to pay for everything are more than likely on a turboprop. So why are people paying to fly a jet?
13thstage, apologies for misinterpreting your post. And I agree that the potential money at Ryanair is better but there is nothing wrong with working your way up like we used to. It all adds to your experience bag dunnit?!
There is nothing unfortunate about flying a turboprop. It's an airliner and you fly it from one airport to another. Just like an Airbus. It doesn't matter in the slightest what form of propulsion it uses.
The problem is that the few jobs that are out , available to newbies, where you don't have to pay for everything are more than likely on a turboprop. So why are people paying to fly a jet?
13thstage, apologies for misinterpreting your post. And I agree that the potential money at Ryanair is better but there is nothing wrong with working your way up like we used to. It all adds to your experience bag dunnit?!
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The problem is that the few jobs that are out , available to newbies, where you don't have to pay for everything are more than likely on a turboprop. So why are people paying to fly a jet?
Next time I'll go with my gut rather than take too much advice in future. Basing my decisions on purely financial analysis, I was wrong wrong wrong. What would have been, some nine years ago or so, a £20,000 investment for a rating with FR would have paid off many times over by now. I watched my training colleagues invest this and their salaries quickly became in the order of £40,000 pa whereas I struggled to earn £12,000 flying piston engined aircraft. When I finally got a turboprop job my salary was under £20,000 (I was more than happy at the time of course!) whilst my former training colleagues were earning towards £50,000. As captain one of them now earns over £90,000, whereas I get £25,000 with no sign of captaincy on the horizon. Now I know money isn't everything, far from it, but who thinks I made the right decision now? I don't.
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This is one of the most sobering things I have read in a long time. I honestly don’t know whether to vomit or cry. The only feeling I can liken it to is finding out there is an asteroid heading towards earth and there's nothing we can do.
After 12 years in Australian aviation I've seen a lot of things slowly change, the most recent being the introduction of the Jetstar Cadet scheme. I knew that this was a lead in to the way thing were done in the UK but I had no idea it was this bad.
I guess I should treat the next few years as if they were my last, because it sure seems they will be. Thank you sell outs!
After 12 years in Australian aviation I've seen a lot of things slowly change, the most recent being the introduction of the Jetstar Cadet scheme. I knew that this was a lead in to the way thing were done in the UK but I had no idea it was this bad.
I guess I should treat the next few years as if they were my last, because it sure seems they will be. Thank you sell outs!
paid for by you guys heheheheehee
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this thread succinctly emphasizes why the profession is down the sh!tter..
.. snorting, guffawing and sanctimony at those looking to establish a professional life career in this industry and ignoring the harsh industry realities.
Professional ?
This thread leaves me shaking my head at the 'professionalism' in this industry.
Well done guys. While you snort and guffaw with your sanctimony, you are as equally as culpable those you decry.
grow a pair.
.. snorting, guffawing and sanctimony at those looking to establish a professional life career in this industry and ignoring the harsh industry realities.
Professional ?
This thread leaves me shaking my head at the 'professionalism' in this industry.
Well done guys. While you snort and guffaw with your sanctimony, you are as equally as culpable those you decry.
grow a pair.
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Batman
The current harsh industry reality, is by large created by ourselves, and our willingness to do anything to get ahead.
Many years ago the first, bright, newly licenced pilot, came up with the idea of paying for a relevant type-rating, to get ahead in the competition for a particular job. Leaving those whith a couple of thousand hours instructing, cropdusting, or flying mail in a piston twin at night, in the dust.
Soon, his classmates, and those coming after, saw his genious, and did the same thing.
The employers, of course, greeted this new development with open arms, saving money on training.
Further down the line, "employers", and training facilities realized that some people will stop at nothing, in the pursuit of getting into the right seat of a jet. They came up with an ever increasing number of ideas on how to make money on these people, soon you had to pay for: type-rating, linetraining, hotac, transportation, travel to base(changing at will), uniform, id card, sim-check, FC upgrade and more.
Creating todays harsh industry reality.
I am sure it will not stop here, as money is everything, talent, aptitude, and selection is nothing.
I am clueless on what to do about this, the only hope beeing that someone finally got up and said "No, this, I am not willing to accept". I fear that in the future, intelligent, pragmatic young peolpe will not concider flying a "carreer", as it is, in my opinion, not a profession anymore, but as I earlier stated,: "a rather expensive hobby", for noodleheads.
Many years ago the first, bright, newly licenced pilot, came up with the idea of paying for a relevant type-rating, to get ahead in the competition for a particular job. Leaving those whith a couple of thousand hours instructing, cropdusting, or flying mail in a piston twin at night, in the dust.
Soon, his classmates, and those coming after, saw his genious, and did the same thing.
The employers, of course, greeted this new development with open arms, saving money on training.
Further down the line, "employers", and training facilities realized that some people will stop at nothing, in the pursuit of getting into the right seat of a jet. They came up with an ever increasing number of ideas on how to make money on these people, soon you had to pay for: type-rating, linetraining, hotac, transportation, travel to base(changing at will), uniform, id card, sim-check, FC upgrade and more.
Creating todays harsh industry reality.
I am sure it will not stop here, as money is everything, talent, aptitude, and selection is nothing.
I am clueless on what to do about this, the only hope beeing that someone finally got up and said "No, this, I am not willing to accept". I fear that in the future, intelligent, pragmatic young peolpe will not concider flying a "carreer", as it is, in my opinion, not a profession anymore, but as I earlier stated,: "a rather expensive hobby", for noodleheads.
Last edited by G.S. Willy; 8th Jun 2010 at 17:42.
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G.S. Willy,
Thank you for the history lesson. I can assure you i dont need it thank you.
Your assertion that it was a newly licensed pilot somewhere in the world started the P2F trend is frankly utter rubbish. Meanwhile you negate to consider contributing factors. Here's a tip, read Mike Hammer's post above. Have a think about it. Then read it again. Then, have another think about it.
Then re-read the snorting, guffawing and sanctimony dripping posts in this thread, then have another think.
Then think about professional behaviour, attitude and mindsets. Then re-read this thread again.
With the level of disdain dsiplayed for people starting out in this industry, ie cadets, by those currently established in this industry, (see this thread) it's patently obvious that there is neither solidarity, nor respect for those at lower levels.
Frankly, who is more dedicated to a life career in the industry, the person who borrows and pays for it out of their own pocket, or the person that didnt put their hand in their pocket and had it all paid for them, just becuase in a different time, with different economics the operator picked up the tab?
You think people out there WANT to have to pay for a TR ? If they had a choice to pay for a TR themselves, or let the operator pick up the tab they would choose to pay for it themselves ?
The days of a paid TR and a 2 year bond are over, it's unlikely they will be back. that is a harsh reality.
I am not.
Thank you for your continual bold emphasis of my wording harsh industry reality, however, what you are intimating by that, frankly I have no idea, nor care.
It is and it isnt.
Thank you for the history lesson. I can assure you i dont need it thank you.
Your assertion that it was a newly licensed pilot somewhere in the world started the P2F trend is frankly utter rubbish. Meanwhile you negate to consider contributing factors. Here's a tip, read Mike Hammer's post above. Have a think about it. Then read it again. Then, have another think about it.
Then re-read the snorting, guffawing and sanctimony dripping posts in this thread, then have another think.
Then think about professional behaviour, attitude and mindsets. Then re-read this thread again.
With the level of disdain dsiplayed for people starting out in this industry, ie cadets, by those currently established in this industry, (see this thread) it's patently obvious that there is neither solidarity, nor respect for those at lower levels.
Frankly, who is more dedicated to a life career in the industry, the person who borrows and pays for it out of their own pocket, or the person that didnt put their hand in their pocket and had it all paid for them, just becuase in a different time, with different economics the operator picked up the tab?
You think people out there WANT to have to pay for a TR ? If they had a choice to pay for a TR themselves, or let the operator pick up the tab they would choose to pay for it themselves ?
The days of a paid TR and a 2 year bond are over, it's unlikely they will be back. that is a harsh reality.
I am clueless on what to do about this,
Thank you for your continual bold emphasis of my wording harsh industry reality, however, what you are intimating by that, frankly I have no idea, nor care.
The current harsh industry reality, is by large created by ourselves, and our willingness to do anything to get ahead.
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Help us Batman
How stupid of me, trying to teach history to the protecktor of Gotham city.
Since you are not clueless on how to change the dire situaton the business is in, maybe you could show us the way out of this?
Please use your superiour intelligence, strenght, courage and vast experience to crush the evil forces trying to destroy us, we are depending on you
Since you are not clueless on how to change the dire situaton the business is in, maybe you could show us the way out of this?
Please use your superiour intelligence, strenght, courage and vast experience to crush the evil forces trying to destroy us, we are depending on you
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This is one of the most sobering things I have read in a long time. I honestly don’t know whether to vomit or cry. The only feeling I can liken it to is finding out there is an asteroid heading towards earth and there's nothing we can do.
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G.S. Willy,
some of us are actually putting effort and energy into improvements in the industry, rather than just harping on about it.
you expect a childish post like that to get a serious response in addressing the problems. Are you an idiot or do you just have one writing your posts for you ?
Over and out.
13th stage.
a fair and valid point and that does need to be considered and accounted for in the situation.
Caudillo,
indeed.
some of us are actually putting effort and energy into improvements in the industry, rather than just harping on about it.
How stupid of me, trying to teach history to the protecktor of Gotham city.
Since you are not clueless on how to change the dire situaton the business is in, maybe you could show us the way out of this?
Please use your superiour intelligence, strenght, courage and vast experience to crush the evil forces trying to destroy us, we are depending on you
Since you are not clueless on how to change the dire situaton the business is in, maybe you could show us the way out of this?
Please use your superiour intelligence, strenght, courage and vast experience to crush the evil forces trying to destroy us, we are depending on you
Over and out.
13th stage.
a fair and valid point and that does need to be considered and accounted for in the situation.
Caudillo,
indeed.
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Batman
Can you please tell us what effort and energy you are putting in to improving this industry?
Apart from beeing member of Ifalpa, and my local union, I would really like to know what else can be done.
rgrds: Obviously ignorant and stupid, and then some
Apart from beeing member of Ifalpa, and my local union, I would really like to know what else can be done.
rgrds: Obviously ignorant and stupid, and then some
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To all you guys ranting on about flying turboprops, name a couple of turboprop outfits who are hiring low hour pilots right now? Ive applied to many and didnt even get an email back so why arent guys flying TP's? Because non of them are hiring thats why! Id say 99% of low hour guys would take a TP or piston job if they could get them but there are none, yes there will always be the few who only want to fly jets but these are a very small minority.
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The other thing that people fail to recognise in this interminable argument (and I accept fully that some very experienced operators - notably Flintstone, with whom I have locked horns on this many times! - disagree) is that the cost of the base CPL/ME/IR now means that one simply can not take the jobs that Mikehammer (I think it was) alludes to. £12k a year simply doesn't even begin to pay the loan repayments (or as with those like me who didn't take a loan, provide a return on investment).
What's killing this industry is the pincer movement of ever increasing cost of entry and ever decreasing Ts&Cs.
I'm sure that 90% of all newly qualified pilots don't necessarily want to move straight to MRJT operations for any other reason than the financials.
You want to change it, make it a FCL that for Jet operations you must have 500 hours turboprop and for Turboprop ops, you must have 500 ME.
But of course, that could never happen....
What's killing this industry is the pincer movement of ever increasing cost of entry and ever decreasing Ts&Cs.
I'm sure that 90% of all newly qualified pilots don't necessarily want to move straight to MRJT operations for any other reason than the financials.
You want to change it, make it a FCL that for Jet operations you must have 500 hours turboprop and for Turboprop ops, you must have 500 ME.
But of course, that could never happen....