BALPA - Finally had enough

[stakeknife]

I can only speak for the two companies I have worked for and can say that the recognition and subsequent membership increase yielded a significant increase in our T&C's. I think a lot of us would like to see a more hardline approach on lots of issues but my experience is that we all tend to moan about BALPA and blame them rather than be pro active and hold the company to account! Our managers probably love it and know that every degredation in terms they try to impose will result in people blaming BALPA and moaning with the hope that membership falls and de unionising is completed! I do hope that someday we as pilots will stick together instead of always putting self first??

I am sad for those who feel let down by their representatives, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and just give up, or we may as all join the ryanairisation that the airlines so desperately want to impose on us.

[gatbusdriver]

If you want a cure to all our woes Paul (Rice), take an overdose, it's the quickest way forward. I don't know why I respond really, is I've already pointed out.......don't feed the troll!!!!

As to the five achievements BALPA has achieved, may I suggest a read through other threads on this matter. As to date I have responded at least twice to the pro's of BALPA, but I see you are too lazy to search.

May I respond with a question (very MP'ish of me, I know).......what do you want from BALPA, an end to the erosion of our conditions (read P2F) and world peace?

It's ok....I realise you want nothing from BALPA apart from to knock it, I already appreciate you are the type of person that will not pay a penny to support your colleagues.

Maybe for one second, take off your bikini and look at the real world. Join a group of people that are willing to negotiate, yet at the same time, take time to appreciate the position that the company you/I work for is in.

I do not wany a UNITE style union, for the simple fact........they are not interested in me (the membership), nor are they interestsed in the company that their employees work for, I want a union for the here and now, and my money is on BALPA (from a selfish point of view, my membership is free, for reasons I have pointed out in previous posts)

I re-iterate....don't feed the troll

[Airbus Girl]

There always seems to be a BALPA attacking thread running on pprune just lately. BALPA do lots of stuff behind the scenes, but it is a pilot organisation and as such it does need pilots to volunteer their time and expertise, whether that be by unemployed pilots helping out in the office or experienced pilots helping out on one of the BALPA groups, such as the Medical group or Licencing and Training group. Unless you get involved with BALPA you wouldn't know just what does go on "behind the scenes". There are many fights being taken to Europe (and internationally) on UK pilots' behalf, but BALPA can only lobby to get things changed - they don't make the laws, and they can't tell airlines not to do things. They can certainly ensure they get involved with things - like when the MPL first was mooted, the suggestion was that new pilots would never actually see an aircraft until they got into the RHS of a jet, and then they wanted only a reduced hours PPL. BALPA's lobbying did help to increase the requirements, although they didn't manage to completely sink the idea because the CAA and the various companies intending to make alot of money from the idea were able to lobby and persuade the relevant people because they had not only the time but alot of money behind them. I guess if we all want our BALPA fees to double BALPA could do more.

BALPA also lobby the government about the ridiculous security issues, and hopefully these will continue to be eased - BALPA continues to put pressure on.

In the medical realm, BALPA again have been involved in UK and European legislation, ensuring that pilots are no longer grounded with every possible condition.

The NEC at BALPA have been working towards an agreement to ensure that no airline is disadvantaged by another airline's CC negotiating something for their own company's members.

There is much work going on behind the scenes - and I think that there are many ppruners who could be pro-active and volunteer their services to get even more done.

The working groups and the LOG board are all volunteers. There are full time employees at BALPA but most of those doing the work do it for free - so the more volunteers to help, the better.

BALPA could be stronger I guess, if all us pilots had the backbone to go on strike whenever any supposed "injustice" happens, but it won't happen. Pilots are a selfish bunch!!

Here is a scenario for you. You join a company and accept their pay and conditions. A few years later, you have the option to change your pension from final salary to money purchase. The company will give you a bung of money for this. Thinking of the £££s you decide to jump to the new pension. A few years later you realise that £££ in the short term doesn't equal £££s in the long term. So you complain to BALPA that your situation is entirely their fault. Justified?

Or, you join a company that doesn't have a seniority list. You are made redundant, quite legally. Should BALPA support you? Would you be willing to pay part of your subs to this person, if it wasn't you? Do you think they are going to win any legal battle?

I think we have to be realistic. Unless we as BALPA members are willing to be militant, we can't expect to have a militant union. Therefore the union can only get things done by negotiation, and negotiation doesn't always involve winning everything the union want.

[Piltdown Man]

Earlier in this thread, someone asked for BALPA's key achievements. From where I sit, they are as follows:

1. Seven additional pay increments for the rest of my career (worth approx. £8k per annum).
2. Virtually a final salary pension scheme with an agreement that will never be negotiated again.
3. A relocation package which worked when it had to.
4. A basing and rostering policy which has meant I have not had to physically move despite five base changes in ten years.
5. An excellent redundancy package (two year's salary), which I hope will work if it ever has to.
6. A respectable Loss of licence insurance scheme which I hope will work, if it has to.
7. Reasonable Death in Service benefits (don't tell the missus!). How that will work I'll never know.
8. A reasonable salary and allowances.
9. A voice (all be it a very little one) in the way our division is run.
10. Other minor niff-naff and trivia like medical insurance, medical renewals, licence renewals etc.

Now all of the above is very, very local. But it was negotiated by our CC with the help of our BALPA Rep. (Thank you Jenny). Do we still have things to negotiate? Yes, you bet and we won't stop. We won't get everything we ask for and every now again we'll get the sh1tty end of the stick. But we will eventually get something and we'll all share evenly in the rewards.

As for BALPA's behaviour nationally, yes I think they should be a bit more "unpleasant" but they also have to make sure they don't piss on their member's chips. Take P2F schemes for example. They could take the safety high road and suggest that certain named airlines might be dangerous to fly with as a result. Or that there are too many aircrew sleeping in cars in airport car parks, only to find that they have "dobbed in" one of their own. But again, that comes down to us telling the chaps in the office what we want of them.

So, as has been said many times before, BALPA isn't them, it's us.

PM

[Paul Rice]

Gatbusdriver

Two thoughts with respect to you firstly why dont you keeping talking on the basis that you might one day say something inteligent. On the other hand why not open your mind and shut your mouth as both are empty anyway.

By not talking you can save your breath.... you will need it later to blow up your date, and talking of dates why not slip into something more comfortable like a coma.

Being a BALPA supporter you probably belong to that optimistic generation that plans there intinery on the basis of the Southern Region timetable and are so optimistic you can see the silver linning before you see the clouds.

Somewhere out theres a village has lost its idiot.

[gatbusdriver]

Sorry

Quite drunk yesterday evening, although I did appreciate the well thought out, reasoned response (did make me chuckle).

If you are willing to use the search function at the top of the page, you will find many previously stated pro's.

Kind regards

GBD

[Dreamshiner]

I kinda viewed this thread from on far in the past few days. As always its came down to a "You are BALPA .... " type debate vs. "What have they done ....".

I want a strong and unified pilot voice and therefore want a strong BALPA, its only because I want this and don't currently see that I am compelled to start a thread such as this.

Essentially I can take a few things from what has been written and am hopeful that everyone would at least accept that a great deal of the pilot community in the UK have following concerns (I don't share all of these but have listed some which I have read/heard of in the past few years):

• I think a lost of people accept that BALPA does things behind the scenes that can't be/isn't discussed openly.
  
• Address that some pilots feel the BA in BALPA stands for something other than what is official.
  
• BALPA HQ and an individual BALPA CC are perceived by many as different entities for all intents and purposes.
  
• I think some on here should recognise that a great deal of pilots don't live within an easy commute of central London and to suggest they get involved by volunteering isn't as easy or practical or financially possible.
  
• I think a number should recognise that even when their own CC is punching above its weight, some of the others are not achieving the same levels.
  
• If BALPA had a better or different way of disseminating information down to the rank and file then threads such as this may never start. At present their communication skills leave a lot to be desired.
  
• Yes BALPA don't have the power to halt some practices, however they have the distinction of generally being invited by the BBC, Reuters, C4, ITN and Sky to comment on certain issues related to our profession. Why tend to wait for the ash cloud of a BA strike to be asked for comment rather than approaching these news sources and outlining issues that we want addressed. This costs nothing and its well within their right/duty of care to do so.
  
• Why not release a press release outlining the practice of P2F in a measured and considered way, allowing the UK travelling public to pass judgement. Why in mid 2010 are we still waiting for any concrete stance from them on this matter.
  
• BALPA could easily outline what they can deal with and what they can't and if so, why not.
  
• Recognise there is a large and growing number of people in the UK who are unemployed, disenfranchised and not geographically placed so therefore can't step up to the plate as it is sometimes suggested they do.
  
• There are currently approximately 50 pilots formerly of Globespan now flying for Qatar, OK they've stepped up to B777's however they are bonded and while and some are no doubt happy with the change some would have preferred to have found alternative employment in the UK. The former UK government via the MoD awarded a foreign carrier an ACMI to fly to the Falklands and no caveat on hiring any of the former GSM crew was placed on them winning the contract. Why did BALPA not intervene, if they did tell us they did at least.
  
• I visited a BALPA jobs conference at LHR, I paid £70 for the day plus flights and accommodation. None of the traditional newbie hiring carriers showed up however Emirates did and stood up on the stage and delivered a lecture advising us how when we reached 3,000 hours we should forward a CV.
  
• This TCX thing is yet another nail in the coffin for me.
  
• Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel a lot of other unions in other countries fight for their nationals a lot more vigorously than we do.

[Plod]

I am not in the industry, I tried to get on the first rung of the ladder and when I eventually managed it I realised my life had moved on whilst the industry had gone down the swanny.

I work for an organisation where we are not allowed by law to strike. Any major spats are normally with the government of the day and yet we are protected by a strong Federation. Our T&C's have been attacked on a regular basis and yet we have always seen off the worst threats by using the public opinion of the day, the media, and a strong presence at conference and any rallies. Why hasn't Balpa and its pilot members managed this with the right to strike?

Pilots have been spoilt into a state of apathy and only have themselves to blame. There have been several posts where people have been told to change things from inside. Great sentiments but you have to rely on the membership to elect you to a position where you can make a change. That means ousting the incumbent who has probably got very comfortable in looking after his/her own interests. The other issue is that pilots rarely work with the same crew on a regular basis. Therefore each pilot only has himself to think about and doesn't really get the idea of being in a team over a long period of time. Stopping crews working together regularly might have prevented some incidents but it has also helped the airlines to divide and conquer it's pilot workforce!

I believe that it is wrong for two people doing the same job to be employed on vastly differing contracts. I believe it is wrong for people to have to pay for the chance (not right) to get some experience on a flight deck.

Balpa must do more to bring these issues to the forefront of people's minds rather than sitting idly by. Everyone that I talk to thinks all pilots earn £100k and can't believe the reality of pilot pay.

Why aren't Balpa at the flight training seminars where Oxford and CTC trap their next victims? They could help protect so many people outside the industry by warning them of the risks before they spend their money. I know some people will say that this is helping people who are not paying members of Balpa but if you cut off the flow of fresh blood to the cancer of P2F you will start protecting your T&C's as people will be less inclinded to enter into such folly.

[Weary]

Why aren't Balpa at the flight training seminars where Oxford and CTC trap their next victims? They could help protect so many people outside the industry by warning them of the risks before they spend their money. I know some people will say that this is helping people who are not paying members of Balpa but if you cut off the flow of fresh blood to the cancer of P2F you will start protecting your T&C's as people will be less inclinded to enter into such folly

The problem with that, Officer, is that the people employed in the flying training industry are also professional pilots, and they make up a considerable part of the membership. Cutting off the "fresh blood" would be cutting their own throats.

Also, unlike the police force, pilots are employed by companies that may operate in completely different ways, or are in competition with one another. Some may compete for passengers, and some may compete for contracts. Dedicated passenger longhaul, as opposed to, say, night freight, involves very different crewing practices with very different terms and conditions -and most of this is mandated by the regulations.
I think you can see that the notion of one BIG BALPA looking after everyone on the same terms and conditions is totally impractical. Nice thought though.

[Starbbuck]

I had a thought...

...on the subject of BALPA and P2F schemes.

If BALPA membership is 1% of annual earnings, and presumably they don't exclude anyone from membership, then I suggest that all P2F pilots should be PAID by BALPA for their membership, 1% of whatever their P2F costs are. Since they are effectively 'earning' a negative sum, then their contribution should also be a negative amount, therefore paid to them by BALPA rather than the other way about.

No, of course I have no sympathy for the masses of self centred P2F pilots who are ruining things for everyone else in their efforts to jump the queue, but you can't entirely argue with the above logic, or it at least highlights just how absurd the whole concept of 'paying to work' is, and perhaps if BALPA had to fork out say £400 for every P2F member (based on typical £40K type rating plus experience package), then they might just start to take the whole issue a bit more seriously!

[Dreamshiner]

The problem with that, Officer, is that the people employed in the flying training industry are also professional pilots, and they make up a considerable part of the membership. Cutting off the "fresh blood" would be cutting their own throats.

Also, unlike the police force, pilots are employed by companies that may operate in completely different ways, or are in competition with one another. Some may compete for passengers, and some may compete for contracts. Dedicated passenger longhaul, as opposed to, say, night freight, involves very different crewing practices with very different terms and conditions -and most of this is mandated by the regulations.
I think you can see that the notion of one BIG BALPA looking after everyone on the same terms and conditions is totally impractical. Nice thought though.

Valid points however countered when you remember that by denouncing P2F doesn't mean that integrated schools will suddenly have nobody to train from 0-CPL/IR/ME, therefore the jobs of their FI's are not affected by Big BALPA making a stand. P2F would affect TRI's/training captains in companies who pursue and recruit these schemes and TRI's at a integrated school if they have the capacity.

All that many are asking for is that BALPA put a case forward to end this practice, not beyond their remit or abilities I'm sure.

I think what plod was getting at, is the big industry wide issues affecting all pilots such as pilot unemployment, immigration, training practices and unity are falling below an acceptable datum level that many pilots are unhappy with. However if you have been in an airline for a few years and have reached command you are pretty much cushioned from many of these issues by your seniority number and older style contract that tended to favour the reward of employees opposed to shareholders.

Be aware there is a growing number of pilots who's careers have came to a bump in the road due to the various factors that tend to affect our industry (terrorism, fuel price, global pandemics, ash clouds, mergers, administration and the recession). This group is by and large ignored and treated as a top-up revenue generator (you receive £800 per annum from an average captain, however 24 unemployed bring in the same amount).

I withdrew my financial support for BALPA when my patience was erroded, just one omission too many. I felt there was no forum or place for my voice to be heard and my perception of inactivity in prioritising major issues while active pursuing of minor, easy to win battles.

It just seems to me everything is just too cosy at the top of this organisation.

[JW411]

Starbbuck:

"No, of course I have no sympathy for the masses of self centered P2F pilots who are ruining things for everyone else in their efforts to jump the queue".

I have now retired after half a century of professional flying. I started off from a very humble background with very little financial support. I joined the ATC and went solo in a glider in 1957. I then went through a lot of selection and got a Flying Scholarship (PPL on Tiger Moths) in 1958.

I was lucky enough to be accepted into the Royal Air Force as a pilot in 1960 after yet again, considerable selection procedures, which was just as well as I did not have two brass farthings to rub together.

I then went on to have a wonderful and rewarding career in aviation which has just recently ended at the age of 69.

Aviation is all about being in the right place at the right time.

However, I am absolutely fascinated by your statement about "jumping the queue".

What queue is that? Is there a law about jumping your queue? Is this queue laid down anywhere?

Is this the same "queue" that I found myself in whilst doing my civilian instrument rating at Kidlington at my own considerable expense (having been a training captain on four-engined aeroplanes and a Master Green instrument rating holder for years)? If I had wanted to join BA (which I didn't at my age), I would have been behind their OATS cadet pilots on the seniority list.

Now, if I had paid my own way through Oxford and had joined BA, which "queue would I have jumped"?

When you are starting to get your toe into aviation, life is generally sh*t. Stick with it and keep trying if you truly love aviation. If you are up to it and you are lucky then you will make it just like I did.

Good Luck.

[Plod]

Well BALPA have just lost another opportunity to raise awareness of the P2F farce. BBC news have reported that a think-tank, supported by MP David Willetts, has slammed big business for increasing their use of unpaid internships to help people get jobs. Their fear is that people from poorer backgrounds will miss out because they won't be able to afford to do unpaid work and will miss out on getting their share of good jobs.
What are the people at BALPA doing if they weren't aware of such reports. they could have made a spokesman available to put their side across and drop P2F into the debate.
Why is there such a lack of strategic planning and use of the media from BALPA headshed? I know there are only a few issues that can be fought at a national level but what's the point of ignoring the ones that you can fight?
Yet another dis-service to the student pilots paying their fees and those to come.
I guess the rich kids will continue to get into the industry purely on the basis that mummy and daddy can pay their way onto the flightdeck!