P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.
767
Couple of questions:
How much flying experience do you have ?
Have you ever undertaken any selection tests to assess your potential to be a professional pilot - ie RAF/RN/OATS etc. I ask this latter question simply because there are any number of organisations out there that will take an individuals money until the cows come home without ever telling them that they do not have the aptitude to continue with their aspirations.
Microburst's previous post summed up things pretty well. I have been flying for 35 years and for all but the first two have been paid to do so. It seems to me that the problem with career development in the UK at least, is that some, repeat some, young pilots are led to believe that a frozen ATPL gives an automatic right to the rhs of a medium size jet aircraft. Some new recruits show enormous potential which when added to experience, which cannot be brought off the shelf, evolve into very competent operators. Sadly, others would have gained much needed clarity regarding their capabilities by going down the air-taxi, freight turboprop route.
Couple of questions:
How much flying experience do you have ?
Have you ever undertaken any selection tests to assess your potential to be a professional pilot - ie RAF/RN/OATS etc. I ask this latter question simply because there are any number of organisations out there that will take an individuals money until the cows come home without ever telling them that they do not have the aptitude to continue with their aspirations.
Microburst's previous post summed up things pretty well. I have been flying for 35 years and for all but the first two have been paid to do so. It seems to me that the problem with career development in the UK at least, is that some, repeat some, young pilots are led to believe that a frozen ATPL gives an automatic right to the rhs of a medium size jet aircraft. Some new recruits show enormous potential which when added to experience, which cannot be brought off the shelf, evolve into very competent operators. Sadly, others would have gained much needed clarity regarding their capabilities by going down the air-taxi, freight turboprop route.
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i am, then, every airlines wet dream because i am willing to adapt to whatever the situation that means we can all wake up tomorrow knowing we will still have a job to go to.
I have studied a number of subjects in this industry at university level which is more than a lot of people joining an airline have be it LHS or RHS.
You are a little dark horse aren't you sweetheart? But I wonder if you have a trade for which to fall back on in case your 'wet' dream job flying the pikey jet doesn't materialize? Or will it be a quick march down the burger shop for you? Have you ever been out there and worked properly for a living? I suspect that you are still under the protective wing of mummy and daddy. Call it instinct.
Flexibility and adaptability in life will save you a lot of frustration.
I will give you an example of industry shift, the bucket and spade holiday industry? the low cost airline market changed the way people booked holidays, instead of a complete package with one company, people separated: flights and accomodation to travel and stay cheaper. Hailing the end of XL airways. They didn't change to scheduled service and their market was drying up.
I would like to know how the lo cost model will be a able to deal with an aging fleet of aeroplanes one day soon. It just might be a case of bring your own lifejacket.
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eh 767ER,
when you airline will kick you out, please contact me. I am selling special training for you.I can make you captain in less 3 months for the ridiculous sum of 130'000 euro.
tell daddy to PM me!
(captain burger , ahaha! but don't tell him)
when you airline will kick you out, please contact me. I am selling special training for you.I can make you captain in less 3 months for the ridiculous sum of 130'000 euro.
tell daddy to PM me!
(captain burger , ahaha! but don't tell him)
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Hahaha i can't resist, for the grown, wise, experienced men and women you claim to be, you do certainly portray a childish playground argumentativeness about you.
I'll let you all wallow in your misery, you seem very comfortable in it, many of you are so wrapped up in your own minds that you probably think we're still in a recession. However, i'll stop shaking the cage, you seem a bit rattled and rather than discuss fact, you would rather make this personal.
Pathetic really
Bye bye kiddies!
I'll let you all wallow in your misery, you seem very comfortable in it, many of you are so wrapped up in your own minds that you probably think we're still in a recession. However, i'll stop shaking the cage, you seem a bit rattled and rather than discuss fact, you would rather make this personal.
Pathetic really
Bye bye kiddies!
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calibre of person now in aviation
I only browse this forum occasionally as its so desperate. The attitude of not only this individual but others entering aviation is staggering. You will reap what you sow(from a very experienced aviator and licensed engineer).
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Hurray! He bit!!! Anyone want to help me reel this one in further?! I thought you said you werent going to come back in post #232 767200ER?!! 
I'll let you all wallow in your misery, you seem very comfortable in it,
The only misery I'm having is with your arrogance and naivety:
many of you are so wrapped up in your own minds that you probably think we're still in a recession.
Lets keep this on topic please....
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currently theres pap2f.com
im happy to amend, add or subtract but the attitude of 767ER is EXACTLY what is wrong with 250 hr "Paid for myself to be here so the world owes me a job" type people.......they are not professional, they have no experience and the arrogance to think that because they have a frozen ATPL they are some how qualified to sit in the RHS of an airliner beggars belief.
im happy to amend, add or subtract but the attitude of 767ER is EXACTLY what is wrong with 250 hr "Paid for myself to be here so the world owes me a job" type people.......they are not professional, they have no experience and the arrogance to think that because they have a frozen ATPL they are some how qualified to sit in the RHS of an airliner beggars belief.
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Global Warrior
I think we all sing from the same sheet here. At least us "oldies". We hate P2F. It's our aviation cancer.
However, as a point of note, a Frozen ATPL does qualify the holder to sit RHS in a passenger jet - after type training.
And there's the rub. The 2 are inextricably linked.
However, as a point of note, a Frozen ATPL does qualify the holder to sit RHS in a passenger jet - after type training.
And there's the rub. The 2 are inextricably linked.
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Stansted
Exactly, a frozen ATPL is all thats needed to then go and get a TR, no matter who pays for it............... it seems that experience is NO longer a requirement. Thats why i started a thread in the SLF forum......... i wanted to know if SLF had any idea about experience levels but when you read the thread, the replies seem to centre on, "well if he is qualified"
As we all know, theres a HUGE difference between being qualified and being qualified with experience.
It used to be that you needed 750 hours to get a CPL in the UK. The major single reason the requirement was dropped was because instructing without a CPL went against the grain of what a CPL was all about. The CAA brought their requirements in line with ICAO but im sure they just did not see the avenues they were going open up for people to buy ratings and time in a Commercial Airliner. The CAA, i suspect, relied on the airlines to police their own requirements as far as experience goes but it opened the door to P2F....... those cheapo airlines that are prepared to compromise safety for the sake of a buck by allowing someone to pay to sit in the RHS.
And we have seen someone here demonstrate that he probably does not even have the maturity to hold a driving licence, yet he is going, allegedly, to work for Ryanair and fly the travelling public around.
Its not possible to get a driving licence one day and to then drive a bus the next. I fail to see why someone, who has 250 hours, should be allowed to pay for a TR.
And as a matter of interest, the F/O that was handling the Irish A321 at LHR that had its tail scrape, according to the accident report, had a total of 274 hours and 82 were on type.
Exactly, a frozen ATPL is all thats needed to then go and get a TR, no matter who pays for it............... it seems that experience is NO longer a requirement. Thats why i started a thread in the SLF forum......... i wanted to know if SLF had any idea about experience levels but when you read the thread, the replies seem to centre on, "well if he is qualified"
As we all know, theres a HUGE difference between being qualified and being qualified with experience.
It used to be that you needed 750 hours to get a CPL in the UK. The major single reason the requirement was dropped was because instructing without a CPL went against the grain of what a CPL was all about. The CAA brought their requirements in line with ICAO but im sure they just did not see the avenues they were going open up for people to buy ratings and time in a Commercial Airliner. The CAA, i suspect, relied on the airlines to police their own requirements as far as experience goes but it opened the door to P2F....... those cheapo airlines that are prepared to compromise safety for the sake of a buck by allowing someone to pay to sit in the RHS.
And we have seen someone here demonstrate that he probably does not even have the maturity to hold a driving licence, yet he is going, allegedly, to work for Ryanair and fly the travelling public around.
Its not possible to get a driving licence one day and to then drive a bus the next. I fail to see why someone, who has 250 hours, should be allowed to pay for a TR.
And as a matter of interest, the F/O that was handling the Irish A321 at LHR that had its tail scrape, according to the accident report, had a total of 274 hours and 82 were on type.
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I would like to point out that not all in Ryanair have the attitude that 767200er has unfortunately displayed.
I have some (at least in my own opinion!) decent life experience behind me, and am older than alot of cadets coming from the major flight schools at the moment, hence my attitude towards current situations my differ slightly from those a bit younger. I have personal reasons why I chose to go down the self sponsored type rating route, and not for the love or desire to immediatley sit in the RHS of a nice shiny jet, personal circumstance has led me down this path...I do not believe that I have any god given right to sit in any seat of any aircraft, whichever one I sit in I attempt to perform in the only way that I can, with 100% effort and focus.
As far as pure pay to fly schemes go (eg Eagle jet - type rating and line hrs paid for - not quite the same as Ryanair or the Easy options), I am not a supporter - it is not an option I would advise anyone to go down, I can see the reasons why one may choose that route and empathise with their situation, there is very little else out there at the moment. Each to there own I suppose, I am not going to personalise the situation by attacking any individuals....I just hope that everyone can behave like the professionals we are and discuss these issues in a mature manner.
I have some (at least in my own opinion!) decent life experience behind me, and am older than alot of cadets coming from the major flight schools at the moment, hence my attitude towards current situations my differ slightly from those a bit younger. I have personal reasons why I chose to go down the self sponsored type rating route, and not for the love or desire to immediatley sit in the RHS of a nice shiny jet, personal circumstance has led me down this path...I do not believe that I have any god given right to sit in any seat of any aircraft, whichever one I sit in I attempt to perform in the only way that I can, with 100% effort and focus.
As far as pure pay to fly schemes go (eg Eagle jet - type rating and line hrs paid for - not quite the same as Ryanair or the Easy options), I am not a supporter - it is not an option I would advise anyone to go down, I can see the reasons why one may choose that route and empathise with their situation, there is very little else out there at the moment. Each to there own I suppose, I am not going to personalise the situation by attacking any individuals....I just hope that everyone can behave like the professionals we are and discuss these issues in a mature manner.
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Whilst the posts of 767200ER do make amusing reading and epitomises the attitude of a newly forged University student (Student Grant from Viz anyone?) coupled with the attitude of 'I've paid for my training therefore the industry needs me' I think it is unfair to attack him for his naievity.
The current FTO system positively encourages this sort of attitude and, from what I can gather from Co-Pilots who have been through it, portrays pilots who are against the system of P2F as either jealous (low houred self improvers) or 'Old school' (who should of retired years ago to allow the new generation a go).
Personally I have to give 767200ER his due for sticking up for the path he chose and for his future employer. Good on him and I would expect no less. Sadly quotes like:
shoot him down quite badly. Universities are wonderful places to get a base grounding in a fast moving industry like aviation. Sadly they give you only that, a base grounding. Reading a book and doing a 'course' doesn't give you half the insight that actually doing the job will do and does. Reading up about the mechanics, finances and regulations behind the Low Cost business model doesn't give you the whole picture as to the dark, murky dealings of the airline business. Generally it means you understand the TLA's! But then what would I know, I have only been flying for 25 years and slummed my way into the cockpit with only two degrees. Bugger. 
The problem the these P2F advocates fail to see is one of both finances and workload. The finances side come to light with a previous post from 767200ER where he quotes:
This shows some lack of research based purely upon an achievable amount of money paid to a fully fledged FO flying maximum sectors and hours per year. What do you think will happen to your flying rate when you reach the end of your 'Pay to Fly' training? Simple it will diminish as the next P2F cadet takes over your still warm NG seat. The Lo-Co sector with Ryan Air can be a bit of a lottery dependent upon base, sectors, the number of drones willing to pay for your seat and flying hours!
The next problem is one that the P2F brigade have little idea about nor any particular interest in as long as they get their seat.
The workload for the LHS goes up exponentially dependent upon who is in the RHS and what experience they have. A constant rotation of low houred, inexperienced cadets through the RHS is a nightmare for any Captain. Whilst they may be qualified they are inexperienced and thus need watching twice as closely as an experienced FO. This is ok once in a while during a recruiting phase but the constant rotation gets very wearing after a while and the old complaints of 'I thought I would get more flying' or 'But thats not how it was made to look in the contract?' get tiring as well.
Quite simply, irrespective of ability, the selection criteria for pilots should be set by the airline for the purposes of the airline with the aim of retention by the airline, not a revenue stream. The ability to fly an aircraft SHOULD be a given with the issue of the fATPL (not always true but you can't have everything!), the ability to exist within the close environs of the cockpit and react quickly, correctly and with relevance should not be left up to who can pay.
The current FTO system positively encourages this sort of attitude and, from what I can gather from Co-Pilots who have been through it, portrays pilots who are against the system of P2F as either jealous (low houred self improvers) or 'Old school' (who should of retired years ago to allow the new generation a go).
Personally I have to give 767200ER his due for sticking up for the path he chose and for his future employer. Good on him and I would expect no less. Sadly quotes like:
I have studied a number of subjects in this industry at university level which is more than a lot of people joining an airline have be it LHS or RHS.
The problem the these P2F advocates fail to see is one of both finances and workload. The finances side come to light with a previous post from 767200ER where he quotes:
I waited 6 months from finishing my training, applied to ryanair as soon as i finished and have been accepted following their assesment, Bank loan 27500 euros, earn around 60K a year so it can easily be paid off. Consider it an investment rather than expenditure, just like your training has been so far. There are jobs there, not many anywhere else.
I wish you all the best with the rest of your training and hope to fly an NG with you someday soon
I wish you all the best with the rest of your training and hope to fly an NG with you someday soon
The next problem is one that the P2F brigade have little idea about nor any particular interest in as long as they get their seat.
The workload for the LHS goes up exponentially dependent upon who is in the RHS and what experience they have. A constant rotation of low houred, inexperienced cadets through the RHS is a nightmare for any Captain. Whilst they may be qualified they are inexperienced and thus need watching twice as closely as an experienced FO. This is ok once in a while during a recruiting phase but the constant rotation gets very wearing after a while and the old complaints of 'I thought I would get more flying' or 'But thats not how it was made to look in the contract?' get tiring as well.
Quite simply, irrespective of ability, the selection criteria for pilots should be set by the airline for the purposes of the airline with the aim of retention by the airline, not a revenue stream. The ability to fly an aircraft SHOULD be a given with the issue of the fATPL (not always true but you can't have everything!), the ability to exist within the close environs of the cockpit and react quickly, correctly and with relevance should not be left up to who can pay.
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I have already offers where people ask me to pay 50'000$ for 500 hours on the 320.(these suckers want use my license and my rating, f...them!!!!!!!!!! flying for little money, ok! but pay to fly, nowayyyyy!)
I just have to sign up and make a cheque, and maybe I fly an airbus in 1-2 months.
I don't play the smartest guy here, because I know where I will be in 6 months. I will be kicked out with my 500 h and everybody will laugh at me.
I will have lost my 50'000$ and I will have to compete with guys who have 50'000 $ to pay a P2F scheme.
so I am stuck in a new catch 22. more experience you have, less chance you will get a job!
we can not really blame guys like 767ER. He is young, has no life experience with 20 yo, and a few hours. I understand his excitement to fly a big plane!
I just wish him good luck, I hope when he fall back with a resignation letter stick in his butt, someone will bring him a pillow
.
in this job , you need a good backup, and a bullet-jacket against these money suckers of p2F!
I just have to sign up and make a cheque, and maybe I fly an airbus in 1-2 months.
I don't play the smartest guy here, because I know where I will be in 6 months. I will be kicked out with my 500 h and everybody will laugh at me.
I will have lost my 50'000$ and I will have to compete with guys who have 50'000 $ to pay a P2F scheme.
so I am stuck in a new catch 22. more experience you have, less chance you will get a job!
we can not really blame guys like 767ER. He is young, has no life experience with 20 yo, and a few hours. I understand his excitement to fly a big plane!
I just wish him good luck, I hope when he fall back with a resignation letter stick in his butt, someone will bring him a pillow
.in this job , you need a good backup, and a bullet-jacket against these money suckers of p2F!
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Some excellent posts in this thread.
P2F is indeed the cancer of the industry. I for one, being the 'chief pilot' of a one plane, two pilot ops have taken the only approach that I felt would make a difference: I donīt hire people that offer to pay, or even worse here in Germany, who get a typerating and a financial help by the job centres.
We already have at least one company that hires only unemployed pilots (which would be not bad in itself), pays them lousy and lay them off just before the 6 month financial help period is over. Then they get the next augmented one in.
This is a nightmare for all other companies and especially us pilots.
I'm 44 years old now, have financed my PPL, CPL, IFR and ATPL myself, but never paid a rating myself. Whilst I love flying, Iīd never recommend anyone to join the profession cause of the T&C eroding quicker than ever.
On a side note:
Ryanair would make no profit at all if they wouldnīt be subsidized heavily by airports, counties, city councils, tourist boards etcetc. This wonīt last forever, Iīm sure.
P2F is indeed the cancer of the industry. I for one, being the 'chief pilot' of a one plane, two pilot ops have taken the only approach that I felt would make a difference: I donīt hire people that offer to pay, or even worse here in Germany, who get a typerating and a financial help by the job centres.
We already have at least one company that hires only unemployed pilots (which would be not bad in itself), pays them lousy and lay them off just before the 6 month financial help period is over. Then they get the next augmented one in.
This is a nightmare for all other companies and especially us pilots.
I'm 44 years old now, have financed my PPL, CPL, IFR and ATPL myself, but never paid a rating myself. Whilst I love flying, Iīd never recommend anyone to join the profession cause of the T&C eroding quicker than ever.
On a side note:
Ryanair would make no profit at all if they wouldnīt be subsidized heavily by airports, counties, city councils, tourist boards etcetc. This wonīt last forever, Iīm sure.
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I donīt hire people that offer to pay, or even worse here in Germany, who get a typerating and a financial help by the job centres.
If only we could emulate this more often in the UK.... 
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If hundreds of Captains all over Europe did that, all on the same day, the CEO's will have to take note.
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VENTUS45
I have to say i agree with most of what you say. Sadly, however, you are directing your comments at VERY egotistical, spineless, eunuchs for that is the demographic that makes up the Pilot community.
You only have to go back a few posts in this thread to see that one guy here trains the candidates that are on a really s**t deal and doesnt really like it but as soon as the prospect of contract pilots affect him, is calling for the strike papers to be sent.
This is why its an absolute disgrace that Pilots blame CEO's and accountants for the demise of their terms and conditions. Its the Pilot community thats to blame. The only thing the CEO's and the number crunchers are guilty of is taking advantage of the naivety, selfishness and utter stupidity of the aforementioned demographic. Sadly its easier to Bitch about stuff like this than to grow a set of gonads and actually do something about it.
There also happens to be difference of opinion as to whether having these (P2f, P4T xyz, bbc, whatever) chumly-warners in the flight deck erodes safety or not. Im firmly of the opinion that it does. Those that are Training Captains training these guys have said that it isnt, but to be honest, a TC is NEVER going to admit that his product is unsafe. If you go to pap2f.com and read the accident reports, you will read that these accidents happened literally in the final seconds of the flight. Too late for the TC to do anything about it. Its generally accepted that an accident is a series of failings that manifest themselves at the same point in time, a chain of events if you will. My feeling is that having these guys in the RHS of airliners is a broken link in that chain. Training a 250 hour chap all day, day in day out, over 2,3,or 4 sectors is less safe than a flight where training isnt conducted. Yes an airline will always have to conduct airborne training sessions but the closer that candidate is to just having had his licence issued, the more dangerous the flight.
I know one guy who has just finished his MCC course and had his frozen ATPL issued and is now in the CTC holding pool, waiting for some one to give him an F/O's job on a shiny jet. When i asked him how much it had cost him already, he said "i dont want to think about that" When i asked him why he doesnt go sniffing around the air taxi operators, or to the turbo prop operators, or what about instructing, parachute dropping, crop spraying, Glider towing, aerial survey companies, what about enquiring into Pilots assistant vacancies on single pilot jets, what about working as a handling agent at an exec jet airport FBO etc etc, he looked at me like i was from mars and told me nothing short of a commercial airliner would do and that he would never consider "selling" himself to an air taxi operator. So when i asked him what he intentions were, he said to go on holiday and wait. He displayed an arrogance that i hope results in him waiting for a VERY long time.
I started a thread on the SLF forum, asking them what they thought of flying on an aircraft with HIGHLY inexperienced Co-Pilots and to be honest, i shouldnt have been surprised by the overall tone...... "if he's qualified, why not?" Ignorance i guess is bliss.
So Ventus45, there you have in a nutshell what the problem is........
P2F =
Egotistical, Spineless Eunuch's (ESE)
the Arrogance of the Inexperienced Newbies (AIN)
the Blissfully Ignorant (BI)
ESE + AIN
------------ = Happy CEO's and Number crunchers
BI
For the mathematically challenged, such as myself, thats;
Egotistical, spineless eunuch's + the arrogance of the inexperienced newbies flying around the blissfully ignorant = Happy CEO's and Number crunchers.
Safety is being eroded.
Companies are making money as a result of it
FTO's are making money as a result of it
Training Captains are making money as a result of it
Terms and conditions are being eroded as a result of it
The travelling public are being treated with contempt as a result of it
We have already had incidents as a result of it
The USA has now mandated minimum experience levels to try and combat it
Sadly we will wait till people are killed to stop it
Until people admit they are part of the problem, they cannot play any part in the solution...... they just bitch about their terms and conditions being eroded instead!!!!
I have to say i agree with most of what you say. Sadly, however, you are directing your comments at VERY egotistical, spineless, eunuchs for that is the demographic that makes up the Pilot community.
You only have to go back a few posts in this thread to see that one guy here trains the candidates that are on a really s**t deal and doesnt really like it but as soon as the prospect of contract pilots affect him, is calling for the strike papers to be sent.
This is why its an absolute disgrace that Pilots blame CEO's and accountants for the demise of their terms and conditions. Its the Pilot community thats to blame. The only thing the CEO's and the number crunchers are guilty of is taking advantage of the naivety, selfishness and utter stupidity of the aforementioned demographic. Sadly its easier to Bitch about stuff like this than to grow a set of gonads and actually do something about it.
There also happens to be difference of opinion as to whether having these (P2f, P4T xyz, bbc, whatever) chumly-warners in the flight deck erodes safety or not. Im firmly of the opinion that it does. Those that are Training Captains training these guys have said that it isnt, but to be honest, a TC is NEVER going to admit that his product is unsafe. If you go to pap2f.com and read the accident reports, you will read that these accidents happened literally in the final seconds of the flight. Too late for the TC to do anything about it. Its generally accepted that an accident is a series of failings that manifest themselves at the same point in time, a chain of events if you will. My feeling is that having these guys in the RHS of airliners is a broken link in that chain. Training a 250 hour chap all day, day in day out, over 2,3,or 4 sectors is less safe than a flight where training isnt conducted. Yes an airline will always have to conduct airborne training sessions but the closer that candidate is to just having had his licence issued, the more dangerous the flight.
I know one guy who has just finished his MCC course and had his frozen ATPL issued and is now in the CTC holding pool, waiting for some one to give him an F/O's job on a shiny jet. When i asked him how much it had cost him already, he said "i dont want to think about that" When i asked him why he doesnt go sniffing around the air taxi operators, or to the turbo prop operators, or what about instructing, parachute dropping, crop spraying, Glider towing, aerial survey companies, what about enquiring into Pilots assistant vacancies on single pilot jets, what about working as a handling agent at an exec jet airport FBO etc etc, he looked at me like i was from mars and told me nothing short of a commercial airliner would do and that he would never consider "selling" himself to an air taxi operator. So when i asked him what he intentions were, he said to go on holiday and wait. He displayed an arrogance that i hope results in him waiting for a VERY long time.
I started a thread on the SLF forum, asking them what they thought of flying on an aircraft with HIGHLY inexperienced Co-Pilots and to be honest, i shouldnt have been surprised by the overall tone...... "if he's qualified, why not?" Ignorance i guess is bliss.
So Ventus45, there you have in a nutshell what the problem is........
P2F =
Egotistical, Spineless Eunuch's (ESE)
the Arrogance of the Inexperienced Newbies (AIN)
the Blissfully Ignorant (BI)
ESE + AIN
------------ = Happy CEO's and Number crunchers
BI
For the mathematically challenged, such as myself, thats;
Egotistical, spineless eunuch's + the arrogance of the inexperienced newbies flying around the blissfully ignorant = Happy CEO's and Number crunchers.
Safety is being eroded.
Companies are making money as a result of it
FTO's are making money as a result of it
Training Captains are making money as a result of it
Terms and conditions are being eroded as a result of it
The travelling public are being treated with contempt as a result of it
We have already had incidents as a result of it
The USA has now mandated minimum experience levels to try and combat it
Sadly we will wait till people are killed to stop it
Until people admit they are part of the problem, they cannot play any part in the solution...... they just bitch about their terms and conditions being eroded instead!!!!
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Its the Pilot community thats to blame.
