Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.

Old 25th Mar 2010, 14:28
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.

What is up with this trend in the industry. Every other advertisement on PPRUNE and or Flight, is about P2F?

I hope this is not the legacy those of us retiring are leaving behind us. Then again it seems that it is the 40 somethings who are managing most Flight Ops posts around the industry (Bonus Culture)?

Wake up and fight back.... It is not worth it. It is the new cancer of aviation
320seriesTRE is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2010, 17:29
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ex-DXB
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Should PPRUNE ban Pay to Fly adverts?
Craggenmore is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2010, 20:49
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the clouds above
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It might be the case these advertisements allow PPRuNe to function in the black. However if it may operate with the income purely from the recruitment agencies, headset manufacturers and James Bond gadgets.

This site does have hosting costs and other overheads after all.

Publishing organisations have slightly less scruples and I can't see them stopping them.

I would hope as this site was founded by pilots and generally moderated by them that its something going forward they would at least consider.

Advertising on here gives them a degree of credibility (I use the term loosely) despite the overwhelming objection to the practice on the threads.

However, you then move into the "why not, they'd just spend their money elsewhere, so why not take their money" debate. I also doubt they would cease their slimey trade due to lack of advertising on PPRuNe.
Dreamshiner is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2010, 06:39
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: >>>My profile has been hacked by a stupid 20 yo moderator<<<...somewhere where people don't speak english! don't point at my mistakes unless you are at ICAO level 7.
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I wonder how long the government is going to accept these schemes.

they are just killing the market.

Wanabes will realize very soon that there is no future in this market.

Pprune should be ashamed!
flyhelico is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2010, 06:56
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My concern is not with Pprune, as they rightly accept the money.

My concern is with the airlines and with the pilots. I now see most airlines "needing" the money, and most young pilots "needing" the P2F to move forward. This is my concern and how we stop it.

This seems to be part of a general cultural change in our societies. The 40 something managers "Bonus Culture", and the young pilots impatience to grow up and "Fast Track" their career.

Advertising will stop, only when either the airlines, or the customers stop "needing" the services of the TRTOs.

What we do as a pilot community is what matters...
320seriesTRE is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2010, 07:12
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: HON121º/14 NM
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In addition to the new boys coming into the industry starting their careers with an enormous debt there is another problem. I was made redundant, and it is not inconceivable that I could become tangled in pay to fly scheme to keep my career going despite having been flying commercially for almost 15 years! Don't worry I wouldn't accept such an 'offer' but that might be the thing that scuppers my career as a pilot. It's a ridiculous situation. I resent the prospect of having to pay for another type rating having already paid for one. It's time that aviation invested in itself, and it's people, and it's future, and it's the lack of that which has lead it to where it is today in Britain.
Firestorm is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2010, 10:52
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: European Administrative Area (Western District and Islands)
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm fed up with this. I'm going to write to BALPA and tell them I am going to cancel my membership until such time as they take a serious stance against PTF. If every other member did then I'm sure they'd wake up. Don't get me wrong they've done some good work at my airline but in the context of our plummeting t's and c's due to the PTF lemmings, a phrase involving deckchairs and large Irish-built ocean craft comes to mind.

Obviously asking the airlines nicely to stop it is a waste of time, so how about using some of that BALPA PR budget on a press campaign and lobbying to get the law changed so it is illegal?
six-sixty is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2010, 11:36
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: at the end
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Rt Hon Sadiq Khan MP, Minister of State for Transport
[email protected]


Rt Hon Lord Andrew Adonis, Secretary of State for Transport
[email protected]


Aviation Safeguarding Enquiries
[email protected]


Secretary of State for Work and Pensions
[email protected]
favete linguis is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2010, 11:57
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
six-sixty, I applaud you and your suggestion.

I think everyone should at least threaten to cancel their BALPA membership over the P2F affair

I have sent numerous emails to BALPA about this over the last 12 months. Only 1 reply and it contained the usual nonsense about "yes we are aware and actively seeking ways to....". No you're not! Friggin hell, you can't even be arsed to place a note on your website about it!
Superpilot is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2010, 13:50
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In an office job
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Further to above
Line Training is on average to a newbe approx 40 sectors, After that they are flying with regular captains who are not licenced to teach / provide training.
So how can it be a training flight.

Mint
Mintflavour is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 13:18
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: not too far from Heathrow
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Superpilot, good letter, but bmi not flybmi ...
Grackle is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 16:24
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So would people send copies of this letter? If people feel strongly enough about this issue, let's decide to show the addressees that we have very real concerns about this trade.

I'll be more than willing to send this (or a finalised copy of it) if people agree that a mass mailing is what is required to bring this subject to light.

Would people indicate whether they would send on a copy of this letter, or most likely a finalised copy, so we can make it move from a good idea on a forum to the letter that everybody sent to the head of the DofT?

If there is a healthy appetite, then let's elect someone to be the official recipient of any replies etc, and turn this into an actual campaign...it'd be a shame if people only care enough to read the letter and say 'what a good letter'.

I'd be willing to help out, I find it disgraceful that this has become an accepted part of the flying 'industry'.

Lets get it read, guys.
170to5 is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 18:56
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Me too and will be watching for the final draft.
PPRuNeUser0173 is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 19:48
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Huh huh huh ... what was the question again?
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I admire the desire to do something about this dreadful exploitation that most seem to turn a blind eye to but I can't help but have this gut feeling that no MP will give a toss about this.

Firestorm makes a good point. I have also just been made redundant and have many hours on both 737 and A320 with excellent training records yet I was rejected at the application stage earlier this year by Thomas Cook for a summer contract. I have since found myself a summer contract that will just about pay the bills for now but I was told that P2F cadets had been accepted at TCX on the A320. Now this is not a hard done by whinge and it's not personal as I think that we all do what we can to make the grade and get on that ladder. However, I merely tell this as I believe it illustrates perfectly what is happening right in front of our eyes and the threat this presents to all of us (including those shelling vast sums of money out for line training). I'd graciously accept failing at interview but to be rejected at the application stage in favour of a CV that shows 150 hours paid for tells a sorry story of our 'profession'. We turn a blind eye at our peril. Sadly, when even our main union ignores the issue, I cannot see an end to it.

For he record I would happily send one of these letters to do my bit.
Beavis and Butthead is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 20:02
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Doha
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
count me in too

Id be more than happy to send a copy of the letter too.

After being made redundant along with all my colleagues, I found myself being offered a very derisory summer contract or a work the summer and get the winter off for peanuts. Myself and a lot of colleagues have now had to go to the sandpit to receive a decent level of salary while the P2F lot fill the vacuum.

About time the Press made a safety issue on this one and BALPA took a stand to stop it.

flyerdad is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 20:21
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Portugal
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Look guys, the only way to stop P2F schemes is to go to the media and expose this situation to the public opinion. If I read in the newspaper that bmi was selecting pilots not by their skills, but by the size of their wallets, probably I would choose another Airline to travel, because probably I would think that security was more in danger with big wallet pilots than with best skilled pilots If I was the bmi management and realise that I was starting to loose passengers because they refuse to go with P2F pilots, probably I would stop the scheme inside my company If I was the bmi owner and realise that a P2F scheme was going on inside my company, and that the only purpose of that scheme was to some TRI/TRE/Line Capt earn more money, at the price of the company loosing business, probably I would terminate with it immediately

I think the fight needs to go that way.

Yesterday I wrote that I was suspecting that Easyjet was giving priority to P2F pilots from bmi on their flexicrew assessment. Somewhere in Easy web page, there is information regarding Equal Opportunities, and it goes like this:

"Equal Opportunity and Fair Treatment
easyJet is committed to being an equal opportunities employer as we wish to encourage all our employees to make the best use of their skills and experience. Our policy aims to ensure that no job applicant or employee receives less favourable treatment. We will treat staff, potential staff and the public that we serve fairly and with dignity.
Any actions by any of our employees which contravene either the Race Relations Act, the Sex Discrimination Act, the Disability Discrimination Act, the Employment Equality (Sexual Orientation) Regulations or the Employment Equality (Religion and Belief) Regulations will be taken very seriously and will be dealt with under easyJet's disciplinary procedure. Such actions may amount to gross misconduct and result in dismissal."

If I write a letter to Mr. Mike Campbell (People Director) inquiring about the bmi P2F pilots priority issue, and explain to him the negative result that a issue like this can produce to the Easy image, if it goes to the media and public opinion, what do you think he is going to do?

So any more ideas?
joaocaracol is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 20:29
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 3433N 06912E
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm fed up with this. I'm going to write to BALPA and tell them I am going to cancel my membership until such time as they take a serious stance against PTF. If every other member did then I'm sure they'd wake up. Don't get me wrong they've done some good work at my airline but in the context of our plummeting t's and c's due to the PTF lemmings, a phrase involving deckchairs and large Irish-built ocean craft comes to mind.

Obviously asking the airlines nicely to stop it is a waste of time, so how about using some of that BALPA PR budget on a press campaign and lobbying to get the law changed so it is illegal?
six-sixty,

BALPA's own periodical carried adverts for OAT's First officer Plus program.. full page inside cover placing.
Bruce Wayne is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2010, 21:56
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
john smith, thanks for the correction.

All, please, I urge you to write in to the above persons.
Superpilot is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2010, 19:23
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well done Superpilot!

I have written similar things to the EU

Please post a letter / email the new (since Feb 2010) Vice President of EU Transport Commision Mr Siim Kallas

CONTACT THE COMMISSIONER

BY TELEPHONE

Tel: +32.2.298.87.62 (direct)
Tel: +32.2.299.11.11 (switchboard)
Fax: +32.2.298.84.92
BY E-MAIL

[email protected]
ADDRESS

European Commission
200 Rue de la Loi
Berlaymont
B-1049 BRUSSELS
angelorange is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2010, 20:16
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Inverness
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Excellent letter superpilot!

Please see slightly amended version taking on some of the suggestions.

Also, here are the addresses is sequence so you can copy and paste straight onto your e-mail:

[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]



Anybody have any contacts in the media?? I could see the Sun/News of the World etc. loving some of this......



Dear Sir / Madam,

Rt Hon Sadiq Khan MP, Minister of State for Transport
Rt Hon Lord Andrew Adonis, Secretary of State for Transport
Secretary of State for Work and Pensions
Vice President EU Transport Commission

I write to you regarding a morally disturbing trend within the world of aviation. This specifically affects Airline Pilots and more specifically those who have recently graduated and carry a mountain of debt (frequently upwards of £70,000). An increasingly number of airlines through their agencies, instead of employing graduates, are charging vast sums of money for new pilots to build up their flying experience. Ordinarily a pilot would be building time on a small single engine aircraft. However it has gone unnoticed in the world of politics and regulation that airlines are literally selling off the right hand seats of flight decks! Yes, pilots can now build up their experience by flying a 150 passenger carrying jet. This phenomena is known as Pay2Fly or (P2F) and costs individual pilots in the region of £25,000 per 150 hours.

Lets remind us, under the rules and regulations of the UK CAA, in order for a UK registered airliner to fly from A to B it must be crewed by two fully qualified pilots. Ordinarily, as the employees of a large UK organisation, they both have to be paid a minimum wage according to British Employment Laws.

However, in the P2F scenario, the inexperienced pilot is not paid at all. Instead he is charged vast sums with the airline claiming that they are providing "training" at a cost and that too to another company (the Training Organisation) who decide to send their own "trainees". This assures that the outsider and accountants sees the whole affair as a wholly commercial transaction.

Here's where they have managed to delude the public, who might have otherwise spotted the illegality of it all... Most people would assume that if it is training then the airline is within right to receive payment. However what they fail to see is that "training" is for the unqualified.

In order to be a co-pilot of a passenger jet such as the Airbus A320, a pilot must under go further training after his graduation. This to gain what is known as a ‘Type Rating’. As a type rated pilot one is fully qualified (but inexperienced) to fly a specific type of aircraft and requires no further training according to the regulatory body's (UK CAA) rules and regulations in order to do so. Sure they require supervision for the first hundred hours but that's not the same thing.

Clearly then, line "training" cannot be used as an excuse for an airline to say that they are providing training services. Especially when they have no desire to employ the person. It is not a form of "training", it is the airline selling right hand seat time for the individual pilot to build experience and therefore avoiding the need to hire a fully paid employee who they would have to otherwise pay a minimum wage. This is happening at the British Carrier BMI who continues this practice despite announcing pilot redundancies. This practice also exists at several UK airlines.

If the airline claims they are truly providing "training" then the new pilot is not qualified and should not be operating a large aircraft with fare paying passengers. There are lots of wrongs with this practice. In my opinion it is wrong from an employment law perspective and also a safety risk. Pilots carry a huge responsibility. Yet airlines and their shareholders seem not to care less if their employees are on a daily basis making their debt situation worse by not earning money whilst entrusted with lives. The industry suffers from poor regulation at the Personnel Licensing level with regulators not having the desire or funds to pursue this great wrong. Experienced pilots are being furloughed whilst inexperienced ones are being offered “work” if they pay. This cannot be right.

The Air Accident Investigation Branch has cited poor aircraft handling skills of such a pay-to-fly cadet as a partial cause of the 5th July 2007 accident to airliner Airbus A320 G-DHJZ at Kos. From his training records released in the accident report, it would appear unlikely that this pay to fly cadet would be occupying a pilot’s seat were he not paying to be there.

I urge you to comment and act on this situation in order to protect jobs and in the interest of safety.

Kind regards,
piemaster is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.