Self Sponsored A320 Type Rating & Line Training - J Curd
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I can understand why someone who has spent a fortune on a ATPL and who is struggling to find a job would pay for a type rating as I was in the same situation myself in the mid 90's. I was unemployed for nearly 5 years with many experienced and ex military pilot's chasing only a handfull of positions. Although it sounds immoral to be paying for your own training and giving the airlines a bargain basement of pilots's, at the end of the day you have to look after number one and make yourself attractive to prospective employer's.
It's easy for Pilot's who are employed or have previous experience to put down such schemes as they are also only looking after themselves worrying that this might drive down pay and conditions or even ruin their chances of a job. The people giving a negative response to this post have probably never paid for an hours flight training in their lives, who therefore think a job is their god given right and certainly don't want any, what they consider unfair competition from a self sponsored pilot already thousands of pounds in debt.
I was 32 when I finished my approved training course and embarked on a 320 rating only after exploring every avenue, and without it I probably would never have found a job due to my age and experience. I came up against the same negative hostile responses from fellow pilots who by the way were all employed by airlines but was given admiration from employers saying it showed determination and commitment which sometimes is in short supply from the whinging minority.
It's easy for Pilot's who are employed or have previous experience to put down such schemes as they are also only looking after themselves worrying that this might drive down pay and conditions or even ruin their chances of a job. The people giving a negative response to this post have probably never paid for an hours flight training in their lives, who therefore think a job is their god given right and certainly don't want any, what they consider unfair competition from a self sponsored pilot already thousands of pounds in debt.
I was 32 when I finished my approved training course and embarked on a 320 rating only after exploring every avenue, and without it I probably would never have found a job due to my age and experience. I came up against the same negative hostile responses from fellow pilots who by the way were all employed by airlines but was given admiration from employers saying it showed determination and commitment which sometimes is in short supply from the whinging minority.
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fcom no it didn't show determination and commitment. The only admiration you got from your employer was here's another one adding money to our bottom line. Here's what happened, you did an approved course and you decided you wanted straight in the RHS of a shiny jet (because that is the course way it was sold to you) and you decided you were not going to do any of that menial stuff before getting in the RHS of a shiny jet. Your cheque book met our bean counters, a perfect marriage for you, end of.
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Sometimes the people giving a negative response do so because they realise it threatens their own T&C's and the T&C's of the pilots just entering flight training.
It is easy to critisise these schemes when you have a well paid full time job. It is also very easy to undermine the job security of full time current pilots when you are desperate for a job!!
Paying for a type rating shows determination and commitment. Also in my opinion it also shows you will work for less than current pilots. I would therefore quite like to employ you as when in the future I tell you to pay for your own food, bring in your own drinks etc you will do so because of your determination and commitment.
You feel that the whinging minority have no right to critisise for you going via pay2fly. Well sorry but the whinging minority have mortgages, families, lives that need funding. What right has anybody got to attack that just because they want a job and will pay for it. P2F threatens their jobs, their livelhoods and therefore their childrens security.
Don't be surprised if some people look after number one themselves (as you said to do!!!!) and therefore "whinge" at you for paying to fly!!! I wish everyone would whinge more and get together to get something done about stopping these schemes. EVERYONE would benefit then.
All I am trying to say is that people have the right to moan about these schemes and air their views. You have to accept that.
It is easy to critisise these schemes when you have a well paid full time job. It is also very easy to undermine the job security of full time current pilots when you are desperate for a job!!
Paying for a type rating shows determination and commitment. Also in my opinion it also shows you will work for less than current pilots. I would therefore quite like to employ you as when in the future I tell you to pay for your own food, bring in your own drinks etc you will do so because of your determination and commitment.
You feel that the whinging minority have no right to critisise for you going via pay2fly. Well sorry but the whinging minority have mortgages, families, lives that need funding. What right has anybody got to attack that just because they want a job and will pay for it. P2F threatens their jobs, their livelhoods and therefore their childrens security.
Don't be surprised if some people look after number one themselves (as you said to do!!!!) and therefore "whinge" at you for paying to fly!!! I wish everyone would whinge more and get together to get something done about stopping these schemes. EVERYONE would benefit then.
All I am trying to say is that people have the right to moan about these schemes and air their views. You have to accept that.
Last edited by one post only!; 30th Mar 2010 at 08:48.
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Camel:
Meanwhile in the good 'ol Usa ...trying to push for a MINIMUM of 1500 hours and full ATP for First Officers....main reason 'safety' .
If this goes through then perhaps our friends in JAA la land might think about it too,and kill of this pay to fly rubbish for ever.
Meanwhile in the good 'ol Usa ...trying to push for a MINIMUM of 1500 hours and full ATP for First Officers....main reason 'safety' .
If this goes through then perhaps our friends in JAA la land might think about it too,and kill of this pay to fly rubbish for ever.
I think its been proven that if someone with the right character is in the RHS whatever their hours total that they can be moulded into a very accomplished and capable pilot. BA Hamble guys did it and a multitude of other pilots have followed by attaining a jet job with 250 hours TT.
one post only:
It is easy to critisise these schemes when you have a well paid full time job. It is also very easy to undermine the job security of full time current pilots when you are desperate for a job!!
It is easy to critisise these schemes when you have a well paid full time job. It is also very easy to undermine the job security of full time current pilots when you are desperate for a job!!
NSF:
Unless you are an easyJet Training Captain, which I suspect you are not, then you are simply not qualified to make the assertions you do
Unless you are an easyJet Training Captain, which I suspect you are not, then you are simply not qualified to make the assertions you do
Last edited by Dreamshiner; 30th Mar 2010 at 10:16.
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Although it sounds immoral to be paying for your own training and giving the airlines a bargain basement of pilots's, at the end of the day you have to look after number one and make yourself attractive to prospective employer's
However, you are NOT looking after No.1 as when you finish the P2F scheme, you are back on the dole, ie back to where you started, but now you have a £40,000 yoke around your neck also.
The people giving a negative response to this post have probably never paid for an hours flight training in their lives, who therefore think a job is their god given right and certainly don't want any, what they consider unfair competition from a self sponsored pilot already thousands of pounds in debt.
the system for everyone. There are plenty of Type Rated Pilots that are unemployed and a fair number because of the P2F scheme. And what happens after your P2F scheme runs out......... you are unemployed again because some other snot nosed wannabe with £40,000 to burn has just replaced you!!!!!Im currently a Chief Pilot so you are definitely NOT affecting my T's & C's but if you ever pitch up for an interview with me and i find out you have been on one of these schemes........ you will politely, but firmly be asked to go home.
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having left bmi due to the downturn/ badly managed business I think that answers the question of doing a self sponsored type rating - DON'T. Unless you are doing a ryan air type scheme where there is a job at the end of it - doing it speculatively is madness
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PTF or pay to work anywhere is just WRONG & IMMORAL.
The problem with the scheme offered by jon curd is the way he promote[d] it. Initially there was:
Followed a little later by:
Naturally there was a 'selection' process and I imagine those that went through the scheme felt they were working towards a job, after all that is what was offered.
In my opinion, this is not that far removed from what some airlines offer, except they pay from day 1. You are bonded, fail, then no job.
What is wrong is the wording of the advert. Now, apparently, the advertising reads along the lines that there are conditional contracts available for those that are at the highest level. Still, people will apply on the basis of this premise, as no doubt they will be reassured that they are of the highest level. I think this is alluded to by Wannabee24 earlier.
Those that completed the scheme in the understanding that successful completion meant employment can be forgiven for expecting to be in paid employment, on full salary and benefits, and that doesn't mean a 6 month contract. If not, then that alone should be enough to stop anyone applying to this rogue. A top TRE, great bloke, buddy, whatever you want to call him, but wasn't Bernard Madoff also held in such high regard?
So, unfortunately, there are people out there, who, for their own reasons, have completed on the understanding they were working towards a job and now find themselves unemployed, despite the promises. There are also those on the new scheme where they are fully aware there is no job on completion and maybe it is this group that should be the more embarrassed as they are now paying to fly with no tangible reward on completion.
The problem with the scheme offered by jon curd is the way he promote[d] it. Initially there was:
Once you have been trained by easyJet, you will be a high quality commodity and we have several airlines waiting to sign you up as a direct entry First Officer with full salary and benefits.
If easyJet do not take you on,
ATP have other partnership airlines
that will place you with a job!
Either way, its a "Win - Win" situation!
Either way, its a "Win - Win" situation!
In my opinion, this is not that far removed from what some airlines offer, except they pay from day 1. You are bonded, fail, then no job.
What is wrong is the wording of the advert. Now, apparently, the advertising reads along the lines that there are conditional contracts available for those that are at the highest level. Still, people will apply on the basis of this premise, as no doubt they will be reassured that they are of the highest level. I think this is alluded to by Wannabee24 earlier.
Those that completed the scheme in the understanding that successful completion meant employment can be forgiven for expecting to be in paid employment, on full salary and benefits, and that doesn't mean a 6 month contract. If not, then that alone should be enough to stop anyone applying to this rogue. A top TRE, great bloke, buddy, whatever you want to call him, but wasn't Bernard Madoff also held in such high regard?
So, unfortunately, there are people out there, who, for their own reasons, have completed on the understanding they were working towards a job and now find themselves unemployed, despite the promises. There are also those on the new scheme where they are fully aware there is no job on completion and maybe it is this group that should be the more embarrassed as they are now paying to fly with no tangible reward on completion.
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Money can't buy you love (or years of experience)
The people giving a negative response to this post have probably never paid for an hours flight training in their lives, who therefore think a job is their god given right and certainly don't want any, what they consider unfair competition from a self sponsored pilot already thousands of pounds in debt.
The whole point about this discussion is what has happened to the traditional route of earning the right to a position RHS and how those who, with no experience, have leapt frog the q have/will effect our future T&Cs (and possibly quality). And when I say our T&Cs that includes PTF pilots currently on the dole.
If economic capacity was very high (like 2/3 years ago) you could say that this discussion would be more about the quality of training rather than the right to earn a RHS - because extra pilots were needed. Its now not the case: Capacity has dropped off significantly and now there is an abundance of umeployed highly experienced pilots on the dole who cannot get jobs precisely because someone, potentially with no experience, is paying to do their job.
Perhaps there's a lesson here? We as pilots should be sticking together to protect the value of our jobs either European or worldwide - and yes that includes graduates/wannabees. Some professions require you to be a member of a union and wouldn't put up with this PTF nonesene whilst others require newbies to successfully demonstrate committment to the community before they can even get a job interview (e.g. lawyer, doctor, actor). Now there's a thought...
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The very people howling at p2f are the very same who are talking of IPA or Unite at 5 bob a month to represent the interests of the pilot community. The only answer to this problem is universal union involvement with BALPA. That costs money (1% per month) and sadly many of you are not willing to pay that as you do not get your money's worth - allegedly. You cannot have it both ways. The excesses occurring at easyJet are directly attributable the unwillingness of a significant minority of pilots to back BALPA.
I have to also mention that right now the deals at easyJet are not quite as bad as was originally envisaged. Many of those pilots employed at £43/per block hour are flying 90+ hours a month and are doing not to badly out of it. Obviously some are still in the £1200/month initial period, but that is no worse than the old £1k/month for 6 months from CTC. It is important that people reading this debate have some grasp of the terms and conditions on offer - they are bad, but not as bad as some are advertising. I do not like it or agree with it in any way, but it is no different from what used to happen financially with young lads/lasses working to get a frozen ATPL, then working for £11/flying hour as a PPL instructor before working for £18k/year as a turboprop FO. Do not all start saying that I am agreeing with the situation because I am not. I am openly on record as saying that this was an issue to strike over, but that view was not held by sufficient of my colleagues to continue with. I stand by my view that the only people flying easyJet aircraft should be easyJet employees and not contractors. The continued behind-the-scenes manoeuvering of the company tyring to defeat our BALPA reps has not been well-received. Give us the support we need and we can win - sit on the sidlelines carping and 'waiting for BALPA to do something for a change' only invites further losses of terms and conditions.
I have to also mention that right now the deals at easyJet are not quite as bad as was originally envisaged. Many of those pilots employed at £43/per block hour are flying 90+ hours a month and are doing not to badly out of it. Obviously some are still in the £1200/month initial period, but that is no worse than the old £1k/month for 6 months from CTC. It is important that people reading this debate have some grasp of the terms and conditions on offer - they are bad, but not as bad as some are advertising. I do not like it or agree with it in any way, but it is no different from what used to happen financially with young lads/lasses working to get a frozen ATPL, then working for £11/flying hour as a PPL instructor before working for £18k/year as a turboprop FO. Do not all start saying that I am agreeing with the situation because I am not. I am openly on record as saying that this was an issue to strike over, but that view was not held by sufficient of my colleagues to continue with. I stand by my view that the only people flying easyJet aircraft should be easyJet employees and not contractors. The continued behind-the-scenes manoeuvering of the company tyring to defeat our BALPA reps has not been well-received. Give us the support we need and we can win - sit on the sidlelines carping and 'waiting for BALPA to do something for a change' only invites further losses of terms and conditions.
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The very people howling at p2f are the very same who are talking of IPA or Unite at 5 bob a month to represent the interests of the pilot community.
What would really help is if the TRE's training theses guys, grew some gonads and refused to do so!!
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Well NSF, you make me laugh with all your contradictions. So now a pay to fly partcipant is the same as someone working for low pay as an instructor ? That's a bit like saying lewis Hamilton should still get the same pay as he did when driving a cart ! Is not the whole point that you work your way up to the shiny jets and when you arrive there you expect proper T+Cs ?
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Don't airline sponsored cadets go straight onto shiny new jets with no experience? The only difference is self sponsored to type rating have taken the time, money and trouble to invest in themselves. That takes a lot of balls and determination with no guarantee of any return,so don't knock these guys, it's dog eat dog out there and so good luck to you all.
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Don't airline sponsored cadets go straight onto shiny new jets with no experience? The only difference is self sponsored to type rating have taken the time, money and trouble to invest in themselves. That takes a lot of balls and determination with no guarantee of any return,so don't knock these guys, it's dog eat dog out there and so good luck to you all.
Theres a HUGE DIFFERENCE.......An airline cadet has a career..........a P2F cadet f***s other peoples careers as well as their own.
With regards to Airline Cadets, by the way, the whole employment process is monitored from interview and selection through to Type Rating and LPC/OPC. Therefore, anyone of these guys can be chopped for non performance at anytime.
A P2F candidate just has to have a credit rating!!!!!!
Personally i think that he airlines should inform the passengers that the flight will be crewed by someone who is paying to be their rather than an employee because i would exercise by democratic right and off load myself.
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What does the CAA have to say about this? About four years ago I was aware of our company (Logie) being encouraged/told/asked by the CAA to employ more experienced pilots because we lost a whole load of our senior Captains and trainers during the hiring boom at BMIR and EZ, and the balance of hours was generally quite low.
If co-ordinated action through Balpa is impractical, perhaps Captains should consider taking unilateral measures at the relevant companies - i.e. go sick when rostered to fly with P2F amateurs. Someone also mentioned the press. Considering the way that the tabloids enthusiastically jump on and exaggerate any aviation safety story, surely the idea of Joe Public being flown to the med by non-professionals would merit a few column inches.
Tubbs, a concerned Balpa member
If co-ordinated action through Balpa is impractical, perhaps Captains should consider taking unilateral measures at the relevant companies - i.e. go sick when rostered to fly with P2F amateurs. Someone also mentioned the press. Considering the way that the tabloids enthusiastically jump on and exaggerate any aviation safety story, surely the idea of Joe Public being flown to the med by non-professionals would merit a few column inches.
Tubbs, a concerned Balpa member
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A view from a different perspective,Untill recently I owned a few aviation companies, not once did I make potential pilots pay for their training, I did however ask for a hand shake comitment of two years productive work before they moved on to further glory, was I ever let down on this? you bet! but you know what, the pilots who pulled this kind of stunt were always the below average ones and I wasnt too sorry to see most of them go. their future employers who thought they were getting a type rated "bargain" soon found out that you cant judge a book by its cover. I now see that these wretched Pay To Type Rate/Pay To Fly scams are coming to North America, untill those of you entering the industry put a stop to this crap your pay scales/status/working conditions will keep going down the crapper, I for one cant figure how your much vaunted EU workers rights leglislation let this go on, maybe mandating the size of a cucumber is more important! Tomorow I will fly our last remaining aircraft, in private certification for a private company, my F/O will make more in a week than most of you make in a month, and I paid for her training! Thenk God I retired from the heavy metal when I did!
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The future's dark, the future's orange.
With regards to Airline Cadets, by the way, the whole employment process is monitored from interview and selection through to Type Rating and LPC/OPC. Therefore, anyone of these guys can be chopped for non performance at anytime.
The benefit of this has filtered down to us today in the form of some of the better Captains in the world and a good comparable safety environment. It can hardly be said that the PTF/contractor culture will contribute to the future of our industry in the same way.
P2F is a never-ending debate on pprune, and I'd guess that the majority of pilots regardless of experience, status etc are against it. Even those that do it must surely prefer to keep £30K in the bank or are there more millionaires around than I think? If the P2Fs are not millionaires then the minute they agree to pay for a TR they should fail selection on the grounds of mental instability (a bit like the paradox in Catch 22 for trying to get home from the front line, if you've ever read it).
The Bad Karma bit - what's need is a signicant accident or series of accidents involving low hours P2F finding themselves in command in difficult circumstances and the AAIB report pointing to lack of FO experience being a major contributing factor. If this comes to pass then EU-OPS could possibly legislate against such folk occupying the RHS which would end this system. CTC, OAA etc would then find it hard work (impossible) selling the promise of 18 month course to jet job in a few easy stages (first stage being "can we have £65K please....").
"The economy stupid" (I'm not calling anyone stupid, it's a famous political quote) - If accidents don't do it then P2F will go away during the good times when/if the tables are turned and airlines are begging anyone with the basic qualifications to occupy the RHS.
Those 2 ideas might seem contradictory e.g. 'if EU-OPS set minimum hours then during the good times airlines will be short on pilots', I say bring it on, the airlines can't have it all their own way, during these good times they will be making money more easily so make them pay a premium for their crew, e.g. create a competative environment whereby pilots can dictate terms. This would also work during lean times as those worthy of a decent paid flying job would more than likely keep it (all be it reduced hours to spread the work about) but without the threat of P2F buying their job and making them redundant then the pilot world would be a happier place.
This would create more structure to career development as low hours fATPL could for example get a FI ticket to build hours/airmanship, FI jobs would be available for them as more experienced FIs would be sucked up into the FO jobs. Whereas now good FIs with hours are being leapfrogged by P2F and therefore there are fewer FI opportunities so less scope for the low hours fATPL and hence the temptation to P2F.....it's a self perpetuating mess.
Like I say it won't change while legislation allows it, the economy makes it a buyers markets for manpower and of course none it works without P2Fs who are prepared to fuel the fire.
What I'd like to know is if anyone on here thinks anything else could change it? e.g. people power, forming a group against it, lobbying someone (God knows who), ambushing young men as they walk into TRO with a big cheque....any suggestions? e.g. is there more positive action that could be taken as opposed to ranting on pprune?
(for context I'm a ex-integrated fATPL finished in aug 2008, now earn pennies as an FI teaching PPL on SEP, no money for P2F, lots of less capable friends now flying jets as they have more capable bank accounts than me
).
The Bad Karma bit - what's need is a signicant accident or series of accidents involving low hours P2F finding themselves in command in difficult circumstances and the AAIB report pointing to lack of FO experience being a major contributing factor. If this comes to pass then EU-OPS could possibly legislate against such folk occupying the RHS which would end this system. CTC, OAA etc would then find it hard work (impossible) selling the promise of 18 month course to jet job in a few easy stages (first stage being "can we have £65K please....").
"The economy stupid" (I'm not calling anyone stupid, it's a famous political quote) - If accidents don't do it then P2F will go away during the good times when/if the tables are turned and airlines are begging anyone with the basic qualifications to occupy the RHS.
Those 2 ideas might seem contradictory e.g. 'if EU-OPS set minimum hours then during the good times airlines will be short on pilots', I say bring it on, the airlines can't have it all their own way, during these good times they will be making money more easily so make them pay a premium for their crew, e.g. create a competative environment whereby pilots can dictate terms. This would also work during lean times as those worthy of a decent paid flying job would more than likely keep it (all be it reduced hours to spread the work about) but without the threat of P2F buying their job and making them redundant then the pilot world would be a happier place.
This would create more structure to career development as low hours fATPL could for example get a FI ticket to build hours/airmanship, FI jobs would be available for them as more experienced FIs would be sucked up into the FO jobs. Whereas now good FIs with hours are being leapfrogged by P2F and therefore there are fewer FI opportunities so less scope for the low hours fATPL and hence the temptation to P2F.....it's a self perpetuating mess.
Like I say it won't change while legislation allows it, the economy makes it a buyers markets for manpower and of course none it works without P2Fs who are prepared to fuel the fire.
What I'd like to know is if anyone on here thinks anything else could change it? e.g. people power, forming a group against it, lobbying someone (God knows who), ambushing young men as they walk into TRO with a big cheque....any suggestions? e.g. is there more positive action that could be taken as opposed to ranting on pprune?
(for context I'm a ex-integrated fATPL finished in aug 2008, now earn pennies as an FI teaching PPL on SEP, no money for P2F, lots of less capable friends now flying jets as they have more capable bank accounts than me
).
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aaaggghhh noooo....NOW you tell me
a bit like the paradox in Catch 22 for trying to get home from the front line
i.e. WW2 pilots attempting to get out of flying missions on the basis of insanity. Of course, to fly the missions they flew, you'd have to be insane in the first place. Catch 22.
If only someone had pointed this out to me waaaay back - I would have gone into accountancy instead...
But seriously (and endorsing NSF's earlier point)...if you do want to do something then perhaps joining BALPA or the IPA and making your views known to them might help? If all the anti-PTF were to unilaterally communicate their displeasure then it could be a powerful single voice of concern. How that then would translate to the operators would be the interesting part...
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What I'd like to know is if anyone on here thinks anything else could change it? e.g. people power, forming a group against it, lobbying someone (God knows who), ambushing young men as they walk into TRO with a big cheque....any suggestions? e.g. is there more positive action that could be taken as opposed to ranting on PPRuNe?
There was a statistic banded about recently, i think it was in the Log mag and it went something like this
In the USA, the regional carriers are responsible for 75% of the flying and 100% of fatal accidents. (Hopefully someone will produce the exact statistic.)
The regionals have a constant supply of new and inexperienced Pilots taking the RHS...... presumably, there are people that are relatively inexperienced taking the LHS, flying with an inexperienced occupant in the RHS. A recipe for disaster........ and the above statistic seems to verify it.
If you now add, no pay / low pay to the equation, potentially you have inexperienced crews flying, some of which are possibly holding down 2 jobs to pay off their debts and are arriving at work fatigued, poor and desparate to make ends meet.
On top of its many other dangers, P2F is a way of eroding the experience levels in the flight deck. Its simply NOT acceptable for an airline, bean counter, DFO or any other person to justify this with, "well we have an experienced Training Captain on board"
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If I pay for (some) T-Shirts how many of you will join me next month to picket out side BAlpa HQ? I'm dead serious folks Jim from BALPA is not getting the message! Time for something different. Let me know of your availability for next month all those that are interested.