Self Sponsored A320 Type Rating & Line Training - J Curd
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Self Sponsored A320 Type Rating & Line Training - J Curd
As it seems there are tentative signs of recovery, albeit pretty slim I have been researching what to do to advance my flying career and am intrigued by the advert with A320typerating.com. Consequently, I registered my interest with them and have been informed that for the right people there are contracts available, they have secured work for 11 out of 15 this year, which, at 73%, is a good achievement. They do have testimonials from the people that have been successful so it seems that the scheme is fairly genuine.
IF and before I proceed I need to know what I'm investing in and whether I will actually stand any chance of success, so, for those of you having purchased a type rating and line flying I would be most interested in your opinion.
More importantly, I would be interested in hearing from those who have completed the scheme and not secured work. What is being done for you? Have you been asked/would you be prepared to provide a testimonial, despite not yet securing a job?
Considerations:
Was the training well organised?
How many fail the course? (Why?)
Is there good support from the FTO
Hidden costs?
How were you perceived by your peers where you trained?
Jobs? (they seem to have good contacts, who/what/where?)
I know these schemes are not highly regarded by many, but I would appreciate if comments about the rights or wrongs of this type of training are kept out of this particular thread.
My aim is to determine whether I should commit or not.
Happy to accept pm's if you prefer to remain anonymous.
IF and before I proceed I need to know what I'm investing in and whether I will actually stand any chance of success, so, for those of you having purchased a type rating and line flying I would be most interested in your opinion.
More importantly, I would be interested in hearing from those who have completed the scheme and not secured work. What is being done for you? Have you been asked/would you be prepared to provide a testimonial, despite not yet securing a job?
Considerations:
Was the training well organised?
How many fail the course? (Why?)
Is there good support from the FTO
Hidden costs?
How were you perceived by your peers where you trained?
Jobs? (they seem to have good contacts, who/what/where?)
I know these schemes are not highly regarded by many, but I would appreciate if comments about the rights or wrongs of this type of training are kept out of this particular thread.
My aim is to determine whether I should commit or not.
Happy to accept pm's if you prefer to remain anonymous.
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If you need borrow money to do this, you need your head examining. Living, even cheaply away from home, running a car, eating etc. all requires cash. Cash which you won't have and which will be running away from you faster than you can run towards it. The wretched clowns who pay for their ratings and line flying will be piddling in their own beds - as well as mine. Why, because in your eagerness to get employment you have shown that you are void of any professional integrity as you are prepared to work for LESS than NOTHING. You also will be driving down the terms and conditions for everyone in the profession because prosperity of those on the top of the pile depends on those on the bottom. Working for nothing devalues all of our jobs. I can almost predict you future as well. You'll be bidding for a Command, in cash!
P2F Schemes also put other F/O's out of work because of you are prepared to prostitute yourself to get get a job. That's NOT a job, it's an expensive pleasure ride where the pleasure is all the company's.
Then there is the safety aspect. Do really expect me and my family to fly in an aircraft where the F/O can't afford to live properly? To do this job, you have to have proper rest, food, diet and exercise. You are not able to obtain any of this if you are living in your car, a tent or a crash pad. And should you take up an extra job so you can afford to live, you will not be able to rest properly. Reporting for duty when unfit would be tantamount to a criminal act.
How will you be received by your peers? Bump into me anywhere and I'll call you a plonker!
PM
P2F Schemes also put other F/O's out of work because of you are prepared to prostitute yourself to get get a job. That's NOT a job, it's an expensive pleasure ride where the pleasure is all the company's.
Then there is the safety aspect. Do really expect me and my family to fly in an aircraft where the F/O can't afford to live properly? To do this job, you have to have proper rest, food, diet and exercise. You are not able to obtain any of this if you are living in your car, a tent or a crash pad. And should you take up an extra job so you can afford to live, you will not be able to rest properly. Reporting for duty when unfit would be tantamount to a criminal act.
How will you be received by your peers? Bump into me anywhere and I'll call you a plonker!
PM
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If you need borrow money to do this, you need your head examining. Living, even cheaply away from home, running a car, eating etc. all requires cash. Cash which you won't have and which will be running away from you faster than you can run towards it. The wretched clowns who pay for their ratings and line flying will be piddling in their own beds - as well as mine. Why, because in your eagerness to get employment you have shown that you are void of any professional integrity as you are prepared to work for LESS than NOTHING. You also will be driving down the terms and conditions for everyone in the profession because prosperity of those on the top of the pile depends on those on the bottom. Working for nothing devalues all of our jobs. I can almost predict you future as well. You'll be bidding for a Command, in cash!
P2F Schemes also put other F/O's out of work because of you are prepared to prostitute yourself to get get a job. That's NOT a job, it's an expensive pleasure ride where the pleasure is all the company's.
Then there is the safety aspect. Do really expect me and my family to fly in an aircraft where the F/O can't afford to live properly? To do this job, you have to have proper rest, food, diet and exercise. You are not able to obtain any of this if you are living in your car, a tent or a crash pad. And should you take up an extra job so you can afford to live, you will not be able to rest properly. Reporting for duty when unfit would be tantamount to a criminal act.
How will you be received by your peers? Bump into me anywhere and I'll call you a plonker!
P2F Schemes also put other F/O's out of work because of you are prepared to prostitute yourself to get get a job. That's NOT a job, it's an expensive pleasure ride where the pleasure is all the company's.
Then there is the safety aspect. Do really expect me and my family to fly in an aircraft where the F/O can't afford to live properly? To do this job, you have to have proper rest, food, diet and exercise. You are not able to obtain any of this if you are living in your car, a tent or a crash pad. And should you take up an extra job so you can afford to live, you will not be able to rest properly. Reporting for duty when unfit would be tantamount to a criminal act.
How will you be received by your peers? Bump into me anywhere and I'll call you a plonker!
Skiprat (for that's what you'll be) I thought I'd be safe, 6 years into my career, flying a 747. MADE I thought... Wrong! I'm now facing the dole Q as Redundancy looms closer and there are no jobs out there for F/O positions partly due to this type of scheme and the lowering of T&Cs Airlines are now only taking on snotty nosed cadets as you cost pittance to pay and you'll work for less if they can get away with it. Well they will...
No airline is interested in training their own guys as you'll be paying for it!
If you want to become a professional pilot, do so. DON"T become a whore to the Pimps in Airline management. It has to end somewhere.
I wish you all the luck in your future endeavors, I just hope you don't jeapordise them by PAYING for work.
Dash.
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If you think that paying more to be on the flight than many passengers pay these days is a good way to get yourself into a ridiculous debt then go ahead. If you believe the marketing hype that you will get a job at the end of it go ahead. I doubt you will actually take much notice of what is written here as you have indicated that you have read the post elsewhere, and know what the general feeling is. I hope it works out for you, but I consider anyone who gets involved in these schemes to be showing particularly poor decision making skills, and I hope I never get to fly in the same airspace as them.
I'm sure that you're a decent sort of bloke so don't take my comments as a personal attack, but don't get involved with this scheme. It really won't be the kick start to your career that you imagine. I speak as one who did a self sponsored type rating with a low cost airline (under a bit of duress), was told how it was an investment in myself, and has been redundant for the last 14 months. Let the industry shoulder the financial burden.
I'm sure that you're a decent sort of bloke so don't take my comments as a personal attack, but don't get involved with this scheme. It really won't be the kick start to your career that you imagine. I speak as one who did a self sponsored type rating with a low cost airline (under a bit of duress), was told how it was an investment in myself, and has been redundant for the last 14 months. Let the industry shoulder the financial burden.
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It may be worth you probing a little deeper into what work they "secured" 
- shome mistake shurely - for 11 out of 15 bods.
I suspect this "work" is probably "pay us for the pleasure" , or at least "what ? you didn't think we were going to pay YOU ? ?" for 200/ 300 ,however many hrs ,& then sod off as another cash cow has arrived. This is not what I would term "work" or indeed "employment" it is just a cynical extension of the scam they are propogating by telling you that , as a 200/300/500 hr on type F/O you are any use whatsoever, to man or beast.
Sorry, but at the moment you are not, and much as you wish to believe it, & indeed believe it when someone tells you the recession is turning , do you also believe in the tooth fairy & Father Christmas, cos at this time those two have more credibility than this nasty little scheme, which is preying on the desparate ,by telling them what they WANT to hear, rather than the truth or anything resembling it. All this individual is concerned about is upgrading his AudiR8 to the latest V10 model, do you wanna pay for it ?
You may not like what is written here about PTF, but at least heed the warnings from those who have done it & are now in even deeper financial doo-doo. . . . and they have the the same, or more, hrs you would have at the end of this charade AND their career is still going nowhere, doesn't that tell you sumfink ? ?
This job requires you to display good judgement, by signing up now you will be displaying a total lack of this quality . . . . .
- shome mistake shurely - for 11 out of 15 bods.I suspect this "work" is probably "pay us for the pleasure" , or at least "what ? you didn't think we were going to pay YOU ? ?" for 200/ 300 ,however many hrs ,& then sod off as another cash cow has arrived. This is not what I would term "work" or indeed "employment" it is just a cynical extension of the scam they are propogating by telling you that , as a 200/300/500 hr on type F/O you are any use whatsoever, to man or beast.
Sorry, but at the moment you are not, and much as you wish to believe it, & indeed believe it when someone tells you the recession is turning , do you also believe in the tooth fairy & Father Christmas, cos at this time those two have more credibility than this nasty little scheme, which is preying on the desparate ,by telling them what they WANT to hear, rather than the truth or anything resembling it. All this individual is concerned about is upgrading his AudiR8 to the latest V10 model, do you wanna pay for it ?
You may not like what is written here about PTF, but at least heed the warnings from those who have done it & are now in even deeper financial doo-doo. . . . and they have the the same, or more, hrs you would have at the end of this charade AND their career is still going nowhere, doesn't that tell you sumfink ? ?
This job requires you to display good judgement, by signing up now you will be displaying a total lack of this quality . . . . .
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Please treat anything that comes out of Mr J Curd's mouth as 75% fiction. The man is an incredibly smart and cunning liar (salesman). 11/15 have been successfully employed this year. Total and utter bullcrap. The vast majority of those who have got a paid flying position (contract/perm) are actually from the first/second batch which completed their line training with EZY back in late 2008/early 2009. After this, the EZY relationship ended. Thereafter BMI have been used for the line training. As far as I know 2 people have subsequently secured a perm position out in the Far East - THIS WAS NOT OF MR CURD'S DOING!!! (not one cent).
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I would appreciate if comments about the rights or wrongs of this type of training are kept out of this particular thread.
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Maybe Jonathan Curd would care to post something and make it crystal clear to all of us:
a. How he's exploiting peoples dreams and aspirations by feathering his own nest
or
b. Hows he's doing a fantastic service for people and providing a career move out of a genuine interest in helping fellow pilots.
a. How he's exploiting peoples dreams and aspirations by feathering his own nest
or
b. Hows he's doing a fantastic service for people and providing a career move out of a genuine interest in helping fellow pilots.
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Shagrat: You said that you have no issue with paying to fly, so be it. You should ask Mr. Curd for a list of the past customers and seriously think about personally speaking with these "testimonials".
I'm very saddened to hear that you have chosen this path. Many fine pilots have worked very hard for many years to try and preserve an OK wage and lifestyle, only for people like yourself to destroy it in a matter of months.
I'm very saddened to hear that you have chosen this path. Many fine pilots have worked very hard for many years to try and preserve an OK wage and lifestyle, only for people like yourself to destroy it in a matter of months.
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Roll up roll up
We have 1 place left to fill for the bmi course starting 12th April.
If you are thinking of doing a line training program then this could be for you.
I am personally running an assessment this Wednesday (24th) in London Gatwick.
We will be using the Boeing 737-300 simulator to fly a profile of a take-off, general handling and a raw data ILS.
Its actually great fun and will be a positive experience, if interested please contact me asap to secure the last place.
For fast acting pilots we will refund the assessment fee if you join this course!
Can't say fairer than that.
If you are thinking of doing a line training program then this could be for you.
I am personally running an assessment this Wednesday (24th) in London Gatwick.
We will be using the Boeing 737-300 simulator to fly a profile of a take-off, general handling and a raw data ILS.
Its actually great fun and will be a positive experience, if interested please contact me asap to secure the last place.
For fast acting pilots we will refund the assessment fee if you join this course!
Can't say fairer than that.
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v1rotatev7
Care to elaborate there?
This guy will reply very soon in court for the damage he done to a lot of students...
First with "ATP" and latter he was forced to open another one: A320Typerating. Guess why ???????
Ask him about Elite scheme ?
Ask what happen to some Spanish students and what happen to their line training ?
Ask him what happen to a few students with Hellas Jet ? How many hours have they have and what will be their future now ?
Ask him about the B747 Type ratings & Line trainings and what happen to the students ??
The only thing that he want is to sell type ratings.
If something go wrong with your line training, he simply dont care and wont help you !!!! His major concern is the BMI FOD...
First with "ATP" and latter he was forced to open another one: A320Typerating. Guess why ???????
Ask him about Elite scheme ?
Ask what happen to some Spanish students and what happen to their line training ?
Ask him what happen to a few students with Hellas Jet ? How many hours have they have and what will be their future now ?
Ask him about the B747 Type ratings & Line trainings and what happen to the students ??
The only thing that he want is to sell type ratings.
If something go wrong with your line training, he simply dont care and wont help you !!!! His major concern is the BMI FOD...
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Jeez will you guys never learn? So you want to be a professional pilot? The clue is in the word 'professional'. If you pay someone else so that you can fly, are you being in any way 'professional'?
I'll leave you to work it out from all the comments so far on this thread....
I'll leave you to work it out from all the comments so far on this thread....
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We have 1 place left to fill for the bmi course starting 12th April.
If you are thinking of doing a line training program then this could be for you.
I am personally running an assessment this Wednesday (24th) in London Gatwick.
We will be using the Boeing 737-300 simulator to fly a profile of a take-off, general handling and a raw data ILS.
Its actually great fun and will be a positive experience, if interested please contact me asap to secure the last place.
For fast acting pilots we will refund the assessment fee if you join this course!
Can't say fairer than that.
If you are thinking of doing a line training program then this could be for you.
I am personally running an assessment this Wednesday (24th) in London Gatwick.
We will be using the Boeing 737-300 simulator to fly a profile of a take-off, general handling and a raw data ILS.
Its actually great fun and will be a positive experience, if interested please contact me asap to secure the last place.
For fast acting pilots we will refund the assessment fee if you join this course!
Can't say fairer than that.
gotta love the old hard sell. Act now (ie. before you have a chance to realize how big of scam this is) and we'll give you a discount! Maybe they'll throw in a free steak knife for the first 100 callers too!
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can substantiate some of what, wannabe24 and v1rotatev7 have posted from word of mouth. Know a couple of people who have done this and...
some of the 'job success' is an Easyjet Flexicrew contract this summer and at least a couple of others have jobs out in the Far East but off their own backs or through contacts.
Personally i'd go for Ryanair.
some of the 'job success' is an Easyjet Flexicrew contract this summer and at least a couple of others have jobs out in the Far East but off their own backs or through contacts.
Personally i'd go for Ryanair.
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They do have testimonials from the people that have been successful
who are too ashamed to say they lost their money and failed base training or flight test?
i have myself a rating on the 320 and I don't find anything expect "pay to fly".
there is no way a company will pay, they will never pay you as long as people are willing to pay to fly. Their goal is to cut cost, and they have found the way how to do it.
it' s a fact, and I can prove it.
Just look at the number of experimented pilots looking for jobs, why they are not hired?
because they have figure out they can have pilots not even working for free, but paying to fly.(with all the advantages for the company)
Don't believe these testimonials,it s a lose-win situation in the long term( you are the loser). I can write my own testimonials.
(you will never get hired, and you will join the long line of unemployed pilots with 300 or 500 hours, they have unlimited low time pilot like you willing to fill the pocket of companies with your parents'money)
Tomorrow I can sit in an airbus , but what will happen to me when I will be broken of 30'000 euro in 6 months???what happen if the company doesn't receive their money and ask me to leave the plane?
Now ask yourself:
With 30'000 euro I can look for a paid job, buy food and rent a home.
Why should I prostitue myself when most airlines will accept only pilots who pay for such scheme.Where is the logic? shooting at myself?
the key of success is to be out of debt, or debt free!
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Shagrat, it is actually very simple.
When you have finished the line training and got your 200 or whatever hours, why would you get a paid job? The company surely will go for other people who will pay to fly instead of having to pay you!
Personally I would try to get a simple turboprop job that gives some income and don’t create a loan you have to pay off and then wait a few years for better times for Aviation.
Good luck
Le Sok
When you have finished the line training and got your 200 or whatever hours, why would you get a paid job? The company surely will go for other people who will pay to fly instead of having to pay you!
Personally I would try to get a simple turboprop job that gives some income and don’t create a loan you have to pay off and then wait a few years for better times for Aviation.
Good luck
Le Sok
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I've written on this subject before and hope I can offer a balanced opinion.
I had an involuntary break from flying in 2004 and with 4000hrs as an FO couldn't get back into the market. After turning down Globespan, I finally did a self sponsored 737 rating with Excel/XL at GECAT.
The deal then was very clear, we paid for the type rating (at the end) and were paid by Excel from day 1 with the appropriate contract signed in advance.
Unless you are offered a deal like this, then don't even think about it. I also wanted to do a 320 rating in 2004 and to GECAT's credit they wouldn't even take the money as they said there was absolutely nothing out there.
Assuming you go ahead you will be one of countless hundred people hawking themselves from company to company. The only ones likely to be interested are companies that you don't want to work for. Most decent operators want to control their own standards.
The most likely scenario is that you get a chance with one of the turboprop operators such as Flybe or Eastern Airways. They won't be interested in the slightest in what rating you have, and if you get an offer you'll still have a mountain of debt and a worthless rating in your licence.
I now live and work in Germany and it's sobering to note that last year the flying schools here produced 900 pilots! This year there are probably 250-300 jobs available in the large airlines and Lufthansa are about to make up to 200 pilots redundant. I'll leave you to do the maths yourself.
Go and get any job you can to pay the bills. Keep sending the applications and wait for better times. Then go to the pub and reflect on the GBP20,000 debt that you don't have!
As always, the very best of luck :-).
KT
I had an involuntary break from flying in 2004 and with 4000hrs as an FO couldn't get back into the market. After turning down Globespan, I finally did a self sponsored 737 rating with Excel/XL at GECAT.
The deal then was very clear, we paid for the type rating (at the end) and were paid by Excel from day 1 with the appropriate contract signed in advance.
Unless you are offered a deal like this, then don't even think about it. I also wanted to do a 320 rating in 2004 and to GECAT's credit they wouldn't even take the money as they said there was absolutely nothing out there.
Assuming you go ahead you will be one of countless hundred people hawking themselves from company to company. The only ones likely to be interested are companies that you don't want to work for. Most decent operators want to control their own standards.
The most likely scenario is that you get a chance with one of the turboprop operators such as Flybe or Eastern Airways. They won't be interested in the slightest in what rating you have, and if you get an offer you'll still have a mountain of debt and a worthless rating in your licence.
I now live and work in Germany and it's sobering to note that last year the flying schools here produced 900 pilots! This year there are probably 250-300 jobs available in the large airlines and Lufthansa are about to make up to 200 pilots redundant. I'll leave you to do the maths yourself.
Go and get any job you can to pay the bills. Keep sending the applications and wait for better times. Then go to the pub and reflect on the GBP20,000 debt that you don't have!
As always, the very best of luck :-).
KT
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I've just had a stroke of luck. Apparently, a long lost relative has left me a fortune in a bank in Lagos. I'm sending a couple of grand via Western Union to free the money up, then I'm spending the proceeds on a shiny new overpriced type rating and 500 hours jet time. I'm told I'll be a Captain in less than three years time as there are loads of jobs out there.
Wish me luck.
Wish me luck.
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Hi Shagrat
Hi, I’ll be as neutral as I can here as the whole PTF debate seems to be very divisive and generates passionate responses from many. There is no doubt that any PTF scheme is an immense gamble and there is a very old (and very true) saying that says ‘never gamble what you can’t afford to lose’ so if you have the money for the course and to support yourself (food/ accom etc) during the course then by all means consider it as an option. Please don’t take out a loan for the money, you probably won’t get an unsecured loan from any reputable lender and if you do default on a loan from the type of people that would let you have the money unsecured then you’ll probably end up ‘sleeping with the fishes.’
There were a couple of guys that have posted on PPRUNE in the past using the names ‘kangy’ and ‘EpsilonVaz’ they both did the J Curd course through EZY and seemed very satisfied. They were both called back for 6 month paid contracts during Summer 2008 but I do not know what happened to them after that, maybe a PM to them might get some more information.
While you have been seeking information you have heard from employed FOs who feel that PTFs are lowering their terms and conditions and are threatening their jobs and the industry. I’m sure that there are many Captains who have seen good FOs laid off and replaced by a succession of PTFs so some flight crew will be heavily biased against PTF and if you do the course you will have to work and fly with these people. One would hope that these people would be professional enough to leave their prejudice at home but they’re only human and they may make life difficult for you when you’re flying so you will have to develop a thick skin very rapidly.
My own view on PTF has mellowed over the past couple of years, I finished modular MEIR in April 2008 and at the time I would have sooner forced angry wasps up my own arse than PTF!!! In the following 2 years I have had one telephone interview and one face to face interview and sim assessment but no job. My frustration has allowed my view of PTF to change, these days I would rather just force a slightly upset butterfly up my own arse than PTF. In my situation I was fairly lucky as I had a Plan B, before I trained I was an aircraft engineer so I have been doing some well paid contract engineering work lately and, after tax I have just about made back all the money that I spent on training and I have never been in debt and anytime soon my wife might start talking nicely to me again!!!
There will be a lot of people who will come on here and give their opinion but the final choice has to be down to you. Investigate the J Curd course and the courses offered by plenty of other PTF companies, do some serious soul searching, plan for the worst and hope for the best. I sincerely wish you all the best in whatever you choose to do.
Take it easy, keep smiling and stay safe.
Cheers
MM
There were a couple of guys that have posted on PPRUNE in the past using the names ‘kangy’ and ‘EpsilonVaz’ they both did the J Curd course through EZY and seemed very satisfied. They were both called back for 6 month paid contracts during Summer 2008 but I do not know what happened to them after that, maybe a PM to them might get some more information.
While you have been seeking information you have heard from employed FOs who feel that PTFs are lowering their terms and conditions and are threatening their jobs and the industry. I’m sure that there are many Captains who have seen good FOs laid off and replaced by a succession of PTFs so some flight crew will be heavily biased against PTF and if you do the course you will have to work and fly with these people. One would hope that these people would be professional enough to leave their prejudice at home but they’re only human and they may make life difficult for you when you’re flying so you will have to develop a thick skin very rapidly.
My own view on PTF has mellowed over the past couple of years, I finished modular MEIR in April 2008 and at the time I would have sooner forced angry wasps up my own arse than PTF!!! In the following 2 years I have had one telephone interview and one face to face interview and sim assessment but no job. My frustration has allowed my view of PTF to change, these days I would rather just force a slightly upset butterfly up my own arse than PTF. In my situation I was fairly lucky as I had a Plan B, before I trained I was an aircraft engineer so I have been doing some well paid contract engineering work lately and, after tax I have just about made back all the money that I spent on training and I have never been in debt and anytime soon my wife might start talking nicely to me again!!!
There will be a lot of people who will come on here and give their opinion but the final choice has to be down to you. Investigate the J Curd course and the courses offered by plenty of other PTF companies, do some serious soul searching, plan for the worst and hope for the best. I sincerely wish you all the best in whatever you choose to do.
Take it easy, keep smiling and stay safe.
Cheers
MM