The IPA at bmibaby
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Norman Stanley Fletcher,
I have no idea as to who you are, or for whom you work, however I feel that your view of the modern workplace may have ossified whilst you have been behind bars.
Firstly,
'...Nonetheless, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of our world and a totally false hope in the capabilities of the IPA. The IPA have never fought, let alone won, a single battle of note in the airline industry.'
A simple schoolboy post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; the IPA have never been presented with an opportunity to try and win a 'battle of note within the airline industry', but as amazing as it sounds, until a few years ago I had 'never flown, let alone landed, a Boeing 737 in the airline industry' either, yet having been given a chance to do so, I find it's quite straightforward really. Perhaps the IPA may just get used to it too ?
'...grasp that fact rather than adopt a welfare state mentality that says, 'Because I pay my subs my job should be secure. If your company is not making money your job is not secure - it is that stark and you should not be deceived otherwise. '
This is an easier one; you have simply missed the point.
True, the baby management (PD aside) don't seem to be the brightest and most able of their generation; however we are not arguing about that. Few if any of us have run an airline in the worst recession for a generation, and I suspect we would find it a little more difficult that it may seem from FL370. However, we are arguing that this company have unilaterally changed our TCs, ignored previously agreed pay arrangements and disregarded the contract that we signed on joining the bmi group. (I have not even started on loss of licence criteria yet).
Better management would have enlisted the support of it's workforce in times of difficulty rather than pi****g them off, (literally and metaphorically), a bit more Guy Gibson rather than Capt Bligh would have worked wonders, we are reasonable people. But that's their perogative, it's their decision. We looked to BALPA to defend legally binding agreements that were already in place, and they singularly failed to do so.
'...The best that BALPA can do with a loss-making company is ensure that redundancy deals are fair and reasonable'.
Errrr.... they did not. The company reduced pilot numbers by base last year, tried this year, and may well do so again in October.
'...The only game in town is BALPA - warts and all '.
Seemingly not. BALPA have forfeited their mandate and there are several other options, the most suitable of which may well prove to be an association that is keen to enhance it's standing amongst the pilot community.
There are other issues, but I think you get my point.
Lastly though, I'm still not entirely sure what a 'welfare state mentality' is ? I did visit my GP recently, drove to the shops on a public road this afternoon, and have a street lamp outside my house, so I'm a bit worried that this might count ? I do hope you can help.
All the best.
MoT
I have no idea as to who you are, or for whom you work, however I feel that your view of the modern workplace may have ossified whilst you have been behind bars.
Firstly,
'...Nonetheless, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of our world and a totally false hope in the capabilities of the IPA. The IPA have never fought, let alone won, a single battle of note in the airline industry.'
A simple schoolboy post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; the IPA have never been presented with an opportunity to try and win a 'battle of note within the airline industry', but as amazing as it sounds, until a few years ago I had 'never flown, let alone landed, a Boeing 737 in the airline industry' either, yet having been given a chance to do so, I find it's quite straightforward really. Perhaps the IPA may just get used to it too ?
'...grasp that fact rather than adopt a welfare state mentality that says, 'Because I pay my subs my job should be secure. If your company is not making money your job is not secure - it is that stark and you should not be deceived otherwise. '
This is an easier one; you have simply missed the point.
True, the baby management (PD aside) don't seem to be the brightest and most able of their generation; however we are not arguing about that. Few if any of us have run an airline in the worst recession for a generation, and I suspect we would find it a little more difficult that it may seem from FL370. However, we are arguing that this company have unilaterally changed our TCs, ignored previously agreed pay arrangements and disregarded the contract that we signed on joining the bmi group. (I have not even started on loss of licence criteria yet).
Better management would have enlisted the support of it's workforce in times of difficulty rather than pi****g them off, (literally and metaphorically), a bit more Guy Gibson rather than Capt Bligh would have worked wonders, we are reasonable people. But that's their perogative, it's their decision. We looked to BALPA to defend legally binding agreements that were already in place, and they singularly failed to do so.
'...The best that BALPA can do with a loss-making company is ensure that redundancy deals are fair and reasonable'.
Errrr.... they did not. The company reduced pilot numbers by base last year, tried this year, and may well do so again in October.
'...The only game in town is BALPA - warts and all '.
Seemingly not. BALPA have forfeited their mandate and there are several other options, the most suitable of which may well prove to be an association that is keen to enhance it's standing amongst the pilot community.
There are other issues, but I think you get my point.
Lastly though, I'm still not entirely sure what a 'welfare state mentality' is ? I did visit my GP recently, drove to the shops on a public road this afternoon, and have a street lamp outside my house, so I'm a bit worried that this might count ? I do hope you can help.
All the best.
MoT
Last edited by miles offtarget; 22nd Mar 2010 at 20:11.
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INKY,
The information was received by me via email.
But I'm curious...
At the point at which the company decided they were going to ride rough-shod over the MOA, despite protestations from the CC (BALPA or otherwise), assuming it was the IPA in the room, what would have been different?
And the suggestion the IPA would have won a strike mandate is laughable in the extreme because the disgruntled minority are just that....a minority.
Once again, interests that need protecting wherever you look...
I'd absolutely agree the transfer arrangement and MOA need to be looked at, but I'd be careful before one re-writes it too early...
sjm's proposal sounds initially attractive, but in a climate where bmi have shrunk to the necessary size and are now growing their longhaul network and flying big metal under LH's watchful eye, any right to move sideways into that element of the group might appeal to some of those who already have group service and quite fancy the LHR longhaul experience.
One tends to forget this facilitation because in the present economic situation, it seems more likely that bmi refugees might want to exploit the agreement to their advantage coming the other way...
Still if it is true that bmibaby employees, on transferring to bmi, already lose their seniority, well....
This is a mess created by, IMHO, bmi HR.
BALPA mitigated the fallout to such an extent that compulsory redundancies were avoided.
And contrary to what miles has said, as I understand it, nothing in the MOA has changed (i.e., our T&C's have not been changed) even though aspects of it have obviously been disregarded.
I wholeheartedly agree, though, time to move on.
The information was received by me via email.
But I'm curious...
At the point at which the company decided they were going to ride rough-shod over the MOA, despite protestations from the CC (BALPA or otherwise), assuming it was the IPA in the room, what would have been different?
And the suggestion the IPA would have won a strike mandate is laughable in the extreme because the disgruntled minority are just that....a minority.
Once again, interests that need protecting wherever you look...
I'd absolutely agree the transfer arrangement and MOA need to be looked at, but I'd be careful before one re-writes it too early...
sjm's proposal sounds initially attractive, but in a climate where bmi have shrunk to the necessary size and are now growing their longhaul network and flying big metal under LH's watchful eye, any right to move sideways into that element of the group might appeal to some of those who already have group service and quite fancy the LHR longhaul experience.
One tends to forget this facilitation because in the present economic situation, it seems more likely that bmi refugees might want to exploit the agreement to their advantage coming the other way...
Still if it is true that bmibaby employees, on transferring to bmi, already lose their seniority, well....
This is a mess created by, IMHO, bmi HR.
BALPA mitigated the fallout to such an extent that compulsory redundancies were avoided.
And contrary to what miles has said, as I understand it, nothing in the MOA has changed (i.e., our T&C's have not been changed) even though aspects of it have obviously been disregarded.
I wholeheartedly agree, though, time to move on.
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SR-71 i think that ships sailed me old mucker, Its already happening by the looks of it else where:
bmi regional recruitment
Successful candidates will be issued with a regional Contract of Employment, be subject to regional Terms and Conditions, including the Regional Transfer Agreement and will have to accept a regional base. Hopefully the base will be known before the commencement of training however this cannot be guaranteed at this time. Successful candidates will be treated as new joiners.
bmi regional recruitment
Successful candidates will be issued with a regional Contract of Employment, be subject to regional Terms and Conditions, including the Regional Transfer Agreement and will have to accept a regional base. Hopefully the base will be known before the commencement of training however this cannot be guaranteed at this time. Successful candidates will be treated as new joiners.
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SR71
I think the number of disgruntled pilots at Baby must be close to 100%, nobody I speak to in the crewrooms thinks that life is perfect at the moment.
If your comment is aimed at the people who had the courage to ask the other pilots the straight forward question - 'would you support a change away from BALPA' - then the results from our website poll would demostrate quite clearly that we are not the minority.
We are not so naive to believe that changing to the IPA will guarantee a parting of the Red Sea or a Road to Damascus conversion for our Flt Ops Dir.
However, we can ensure that pilots are fully consulted, that a properly mandated agenda is drawn up and taken to the negotiating table and that pilots are kept informed.
We have an opportunity to change the way that Baby pilots are represented. That change seems to have resonated with my colleagues because they are backing the change and the IPA now have a majority.
The next interesting question is - will BALPA recognise they no longer represent the majority of Baby pilots and agree to stand down? Given their righteous stance at DHL one would hope so.
Looker
If your comment is aimed at the people who had the courage to ask the other pilots the straight forward question - 'would you support a change away from BALPA' - then the results from our website poll would demostrate quite clearly that we are not the minority.
We are not so naive to believe that changing to the IPA will guarantee a parting of the Red Sea or a Road to Damascus conversion for our Flt Ops Dir.
However, we can ensure that pilots are fully consulted, that a properly mandated agenda is drawn up and taken to the negotiating table and that pilots are kept informed.
We have an opportunity to change the way that Baby pilots are represented. That change seems to have resonated with my colleagues because they are backing the change and the IPA now have a majority.
The next interesting question is - will BALPA recognise they no longer represent the majority of Baby pilots and agree to stand down? Given their righteous stance at DHL one would hope so.
Looker
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SR71
At the point at which the company decided they were going to ride rough-shod over the MOA, despite protestations from the CC (BALPA or otherwise), assuming it was the IPA in the room, what would have been different?
Don't know but a former chairman of the CC might not of been present to seize the moment as an oportunity to push his own agenda (alledgedly)i.e. negating GDOJ
And the suggestion the IPA would have won a strike mandate is laughable in the extreme because the disgruntled minority are just that....a minority.
Seems that the minority is turning into a bit a more, with lots of colleauges I know leaving BALPA.
BALPA mitigated the fallout to such an extent that compulsory redundancies were avoided
Nothing to do with Ryanair and FlyDubai of course!!! Although the compulsory pay cut... sorry seasonal working helped!
This is a mess created by, IMHO, bmi HR
Who in other parts of the company i.e. mainline and regional acted completely differently with regard to seat, base and essentially LIFO!!
Did the Baby CC not liase with their counterparts in the other parts of company NO! why not?
At the point at which the company decided they were going to ride rough-shod over the MOA, despite protestations from the CC (BALPA or otherwise), assuming it was the IPA in the room, what would have been different?
Don't know but a former chairman of the CC might not of been present to seize the moment as an oportunity to push his own agenda (alledgedly)i.e. negating GDOJ
And the suggestion the IPA would have won a strike mandate is laughable in the extreme because the disgruntled minority are just that....a minority.
Seems that the minority is turning into a bit a more, with lots of colleauges I know leaving BALPA.
BALPA mitigated the fallout to such an extent that compulsory redundancies were avoided
Nothing to do with Ryanair and FlyDubai of course!!! Although the compulsory pay cut... sorry seasonal working helped!
This is a mess created by, IMHO, bmi HR
Who in other parts of the company i.e. mainline and regional acted completely differently with regard to seat, base and essentially LIFO!!
Did the Baby CC not liase with their counterparts in the other parts of company NO! why not?
Last edited by Budar; 22nd Mar 2010 at 22:14. Reason: spelling again!!
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bn1
Firstly welcome to PPRuNE - we're glad to welcome 1st timers to the debating chamber.
You make a valid point about the complexities of GDOJ v BDOJ. When Baby was expanding quickly then GDOJ was not an issue - everyone's job was safe who was thinking about redundancies then? But the changing economic situation has brought this issue sharply into focus. What is needed is for the nettle to be grasped and the issue to be debated by all the pilots. I am sure a reasonable compromise that protects the interests of existing Baby pilots with a GDOJ and also protects existing pilots from possible future transferees bringing a GDOJ with them is not beyond the collective intelligence.
What is not acceptable is to simply publicly ignore the problem after the 1st round of redundancies at BHX and let it bite you again during the 2nd round of redundancies. If the ex BALPA CC Chair had a viewpoint on GDOJ then he should have consulted the pilots and gone with the majority view rather than trying to manipulate the situation behind the scenes.
Looker
You make a valid point about the complexities of GDOJ v BDOJ. When Baby was expanding quickly then GDOJ was not an issue - everyone's job was safe who was thinking about redundancies then? But the changing economic situation has brought this issue sharply into focus. What is needed is for the nettle to be grasped and the issue to be debated by all the pilots. I am sure a reasonable compromise that protects the interests of existing Baby pilots with a GDOJ and also protects existing pilots from possible future transferees bringing a GDOJ with them is not beyond the collective intelligence.
What is not acceptable is to simply publicly ignore the problem after the 1st round of redundancies at BHX and let it bite you again during the 2nd round of redundancies. If the ex BALPA CC Chair had a viewpoint on GDOJ then he should have consulted the pilots and gone with the majority view rather than trying to manipulate the situation behind the scenes.
Looker
Last edited by Looker; 22nd Mar 2010 at 22:02.
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Miles offtarget, although it's not as good a scheme as most of us would have liked, Seasonal working at bmibaby was a choice between a permanent job or redundancy for those affected by the criteria.
For the benefit of fact, they get 71% of basic salary year round but a variable roster pattern ranging from 100% full time during the summer to 50% in the winter. Note that they also get 71% salary when working the 50% roster in the winter.
The day off bought rate when working 100% rosters is the same as a full timer.
For the benefit of fact, they get 71% of basic salary year round but a variable roster pattern ranging from 100% full time during the summer to 50% in the winter. Note that they also get 71% salary when working the 50% roster in the winter.
The day off bought rate when working 100% rosters is the same as a full timer.
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Thanks for making that clear.
Of course 71% is far better than 0%, and with few other options available it's a good one to take.
As for the day off payment, I stand corrected, will check my sources on 'Galley FM' more carefully in future, and fire my sub-editor.
Of course 71% is far better than 0%, and with few other options available it's a good one to take.
As for the day off payment, I stand corrected, will check my sources on 'Galley FM' more carefully in future, and fire my sub-editor.
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I don't know half of what happened behind "closed doors", so to speak, so I am not attempting to defend the indefensible.
My hunch is that unless people confirm the veracity of the information they splash all over various forums, all they will do is inflame the situation, rather than engender a sense of solidarity.
I still wish someone could outline to me how a multi-base airline like Regional can run with LIFO but another multi-base airline within the same group cannot run with LIFO?
The situation is, in the words of Gunnery Sergeant Highway, a major "cluster****".
sjm,
Isn't that clause contradictory? What is the Regional Transfer Agreement? Or is that a clause dealing with "Base Transfers" once in employment?
Still, its a shame, IMHO, if this "protectionist" attitude prevails within the group.
Regards communication, bmibaby had a BALPA Forum, which every member was subscribed to, on which members could voice their opinions about whatever they felt like.
But hardly anyone ever used it.
It seems to me a more sensible use of the collective resource/sentiment is for one of the IT-inclined pilots to set up a neutral, non-associated forum which every baby pilot could contribute to and for the debate about the "way forward" to take place before ditching the existing status quo.
You will never convince a proportion of the pilot fratenity that the IPA have the resource to represent pilots on the "global" stage which BALPA attempt to do.
When in 2012 we lose the right to set our own FTL's, and fall into line with Europe, are you going to wish you'd had a Union that can see the bigger picture and do something about it?
Not much use fighting for 11 days off per month, but winding up flying a 1000 hours per year is there?
Apologies if the IPA are doing something about this issue. I can't see anything on their WWW site to suggest it is...
What I would fear is that the industrial unrest prejudices what is a critical year in which, by all accounts, the company are actually on target to make some money.
At the end of the day, I''m fairly sure that, at this point in the macroeconomic cycle, that is really the only thing LH care about.
My hunch is that unless people confirm the veracity of the information they splash all over various forums, all they will do is inflame the situation, rather than engender a sense of solidarity.
I still wish someone could outline to me how a multi-base airline like Regional can run with LIFO but another multi-base airline within the same group cannot run with LIFO?
The situation is, in the words of Gunnery Sergeant Highway, a major "cluster****".
sjm,
Isn't that clause contradictory? What is the Regional Transfer Agreement? Or is that a clause dealing with "Base Transfers" once in employment?
Still, its a shame, IMHO, if this "protectionist" attitude prevails within the group.
Regards communication, bmibaby had a BALPA Forum, which every member was subscribed to, on which members could voice their opinions about whatever they felt like.
But hardly anyone ever used it.
It seems to me a more sensible use of the collective resource/sentiment is for one of the IT-inclined pilots to set up a neutral, non-associated forum which every baby pilot could contribute to and for the debate about the "way forward" to take place before ditching the existing status quo.
You will never convince a proportion of the pilot fratenity that the IPA have the resource to represent pilots on the "global" stage which BALPA attempt to do.
When in 2012 we lose the right to set our own FTL's, and fall into line with Europe, are you going to wish you'd had a Union that can see the bigger picture and do something about it?
Not much use fighting for 11 days off per month, but winding up flying a 1000 hours per year is there?
Apologies if the IPA are doing something about this issue. I can't see anything on their WWW site to suggest it is...
What I would fear is that the industrial unrest prejudices what is a critical year in which, by all accounts, the company are actually on target to make some money.
At the end of the day, I''m fairly sure that, at this point in the macroeconomic cycle, that is really the only thing LH care about.
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As an outsider with a residual interest in baby, it's fascinating watching the discussion here.
From a historical perspective IIRC, the IPA was formed when a group of pilots also felt very let down by BALPA following the takeover of DAN Air by BA (a very long time ago now).
It's also noticeable how the different cc's within the bmi group have been able to make very different concessions from their relevant managements.
The stumbling blocks to all unions in this country are the laws set in favour of the employers, meaning the pilots will always be reacting to situations, and the pilots getting effective leadership in their own CC, coupled with getting effective support from their menbers. A very difficult task indeed.
From a historical perspective IIRC, the IPA was formed when a group of pilots also felt very let down by BALPA following the takeover of DAN Air by BA (a very long time ago now).
It's also noticeable how the different cc's within the bmi group have been able to make very different concessions from their relevant managements.
The stumbling blocks to all unions in this country are the laws set in favour of the employers, meaning the pilots will always be reacting to situations, and the pilots getting effective leadership in their own CC, coupled with getting effective support from their menbers. A very difficult task indeed.
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Was the bmibaby MD Pushed?
Is it correct that the MD has been pushed or did he go by his own free will?
If he went on his own accord does he know something that we don't?
With the Ops Director lining up interviews for himself the message coming out of Tiny town does not instil much confidence for the future.
What does everybody else think?
If he went on his own accord does he know something that we don't?
With the Ops Director lining up interviews for himself the message coming out of Tiny town does not instil much confidence for the future.
What does everybody else think?
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New opportunities?
Hmmm. Perhaps the BDOJ/GDOJ arguement will proove to be an irrelivance and that the delayed pay increase (the one that the Company wasn't going to pay regardless) in return for an improved redundancy package might be the best thing that the CC ever did?
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Mr Rix's career in the industry spans more than 30 years.
He has held senior positions with several UK airlines including Dan Air, bmi Regional and bmibaby.
During his time at bmibaby, he brought the airline to the top position in the UK in terms of reliability and punctuality among low-cost carriers, Tiger said.
"We are delighted that Crawford will be joining us later in the year," Mr Davis said.
"With his experience and track record, he will be a great asset to the business."
He has held senior positions with several UK airlines including Dan Air, bmi Regional and bmibaby.
During his time at bmibaby, he brought the airline to the top position in the UK in terms of reliability and punctuality among low-cost carriers, Tiger said.
"We are delighted that Crawford will be joining us later in the year," Mr Davis said.
"With his experience and track record, he will be a great asset to the business."
Last edited by sjm; 25th Mar 2010 at 11:28.
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Well, one thing nobody can deny, we have had more information from Julian in his first letter to the troops than we ever did from Mr Rix in 4 years.
I doubt very much Tiger are fully aware of his track record. Blowing trumpets out of ones backside about punctuality when we operate half a dozen flights per day is nothing to be proud about.
Good luck to the man.
Will Mr Berry follow? I would!
I doubt very much Tiger are fully aware of his track record. Blowing trumpets out of ones backside about punctuality when we operate half a dozen flights per day is nothing to be proud about.
Good luck to the man.
Will Mr Berry follow? I would!
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sjm
You need to gett your facts corrrect if your going to start slagging CR off!!
It wasn't two rounds of redundancies, it was three if you count Teesside!!
They ought to good at it by now?
It wasn't two rounds of redundancies, it was three if you count Teesside!!
They ought to good at it by now?