Your opinion on why CC & FD don't vote with each other
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Your opinion on why CC & FD don't vote with each other
With all of our experience in this industry what is your opinion as to why cabin crew are often not in agreement with flight deck crew when it comes to accepting poorer contracts.
Here is what has been in the news lately: BA cabin crew may strike, Aer Lingus lays off because cabin crew did not accept lower conditions while the pilots did, SAS has internal problems with cabin crew not accepting lower conditions while the pilot group does. This gets me to wonder why cabin crew seem to stand more firm than their colleagues in the front of the plane.
If I had to generalize very broadly I would state that the opposite was true a few decades ago.
Has it changed because of the poor state of the industry today and the pilots may have "more to lose" because pilot jobs are few and far between?
Just curious what others think about this phenomenon. I know it is a very broad and generalized statement based on few observations. Maybe you don't see it at all the way I do.
Here is what has been in the news lately: BA cabin crew may strike, Aer Lingus lays off because cabin crew did not accept lower conditions while the pilots did, SAS has internal problems with cabin crew not accepting lower conditions while the pilot group does. This gets me to wonder why cabin crew seem to stand more firm than their colleagues in the front of the plane.
If I had to generalize very broadly I would state that the opposite was true a few decades ago.
Has it changed because of the poor state of the industry today and the pilots may have "more to lose" because pilot jobs are few and far between?
Just curious what others think about this phenomenon. I know it is a very broad and generalized statement based on few observations. Maybe you don't see it at all the way I do.
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There are a few things that cabin crew, and pilots can see as common ground, but not many. We come into the industry very different backgrounds. Pilots are highly educated, highly skilled, and professionally qualified whereas cabin crew have lower levels of education, and there's is not a profession (although most behave in a professional manner). Otherwise there are quite alot of differences. For example salary. If flight deck opt to defer a pay deal, or take a pay freeze they don't lose out as much as cabin crew. A pilot's finances are probably not quite as finely balanced as a stewardess's with the co-pilot earning in a low cost jet airline something in the region of £45k, and the cabin crew earning something in the region of £15k (which would include bar takings and so on). We have different FTLs, and very different contracts. Some airlines have very different rostering rules for the two groups. All in all the groups are too disparate to be represented successfully by one union, and the law prohibits coordinated action between two unions.
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Don't think you will find many cabincrew in SAS working for £15K, not many for £45k either. My guess is that the cabinrenumeration in SK is exceeding £50k, plus pension. They are not cooperating because they know they won't find any kind of job inside or out of aviation that pays that well for so little work. And they are now taking down the company!
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Firestorm,
I understand that they are not in the same union. I used to be in the cockpit for a regional carrier.
My observation is that in the early 90's we saw pilot unions behaving very adamantly about contracts and sticking to their demands, while it appeared that cabin crew were more likely to agree to management demands. While today it seems to be the other way around. So, I'm wondering what might have caused the change (although the recent spat with LH pilots doesn't support my statement).
Dire Straits,
I agree with your statement and SK. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. It is actually this conflict that caused me to pose the question since the other unions, flight deck and cabin, have written scolding letters to the Danish cabin crew for failing to reduce their demands. Basically, in-house fighting in Scandinavia.
I understand that they are not in the same union. I used to be in the cockpit for a regional carrier.
My observation is that in the early 90's we saw pilot unions behaving very adamantly about contracts and sticking to their demands, while it appeared that cabin crew were more likely to agree to management demands. While today it seems to be the other way around. So, I'm wondering what might have caused the change (although the recent spat with LH pilots doesn't support my statement).
Dire Straits,
I agree with your statement and SK. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. It is actually this conflict that caused me to pose the question since the other unions, flight deck and cabin, have written scolding letters to the Danish cabin crew for failing to reduce their demands. Basically, in-house fighting in Scandinavia.
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Pilots are highly educated, highly skilled, and professionally qualified whereas cabin crew have lower levels of education, and there's is not a profession (although most behave in a professional manner).
However I agree with your point that as a pilot you are a highly skilled professional compared to being crew, which is a non-professional (yet hard working) occupation. You make a very good point that say a 5% drop in a pilots salary while it will make a difference, due the higher salary then it is unlikely to have as much of an impact.
The crew in our company earn a good wage and take home (with all perks inc) much more than the average national salary. I think more of the divide is to do with the change in the industry. Like it or not, the lock flight deck door has had an impact on the working life, team this up with the increased drive for profit (driven by the low cost operators) meaning the crew have less free time, meaning a greater divide between the jobs.
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I would hazard a guess that pilots generally belong to small, pilot based unions, that behave in a business-like fashion, whereas cabin crew unions are often sub-divisions of larger, old style unions, with a more militant tendency.
To be honest, you might as well compare a lawyer and a legal secretary - they both work in the same building, but ypu cannot compare the two.
To be honest, you might as well compare a lawyer and a legal secretary - they both work in the same building, but ypu cannot compare the two.
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The essential difference is that lawyers, accountants, dentists, doctors, architects and the like may start as someone's employee but as often as not end up partners in ownership or sole owners of the enterprises in which they ply their trade. Pilots generally do not; we are forever employees unless we manage to start a successful business of our own whether it be in aviation or another sector of the economy. As employees we are at the mercy of rapacious managers.
As to why we don't take the same view as cabin crew, consider the recently announced BA cabin crew strike at a time when the company is on course to lose £600m in the current financial year. I know it doesn't do to generalise and there are exceptions but I'm just about to: Pilots on the whole are brighter and better educated than cabin crew, can see beyond the end of their noses and are in the profession for a lifetime whereas the majority of cabin crew can not and are not. Harsh but true, I feel.
As to why we don't take the same view as cabin crew, consider the recently announced BA cabin crew strike at a time when the company is on course to lose £600m in the current financial year. I know it doesn't do to generalise and there are exceptions but I'm just about to: Pilots on the whole are brighter and better educated than cabin crew, can see beyond the end of their noses and are in the profession for a lifetime whereas the majority of cabin crew can not and are not. Harsh but true, I feel.
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Wingswanger as someone who has been in aviation (CC) for a long time I have to say I agree with you. Most CC cannot see the bigger picture when it comes to employment issues.
We are so conditioned right from the recruitment stage that we are lucky to work for XXX that we don't dare challenge anything that might jeopardise this. Managers exploit the desire to be CC at every opportunity and so get away with unscrupulous barely legal T&C's. They also target the minimum legal age for CC......people who have minimul life experience and would't even think to question these. They just want their "dream job" that will finance their next night out....
Pilots on the other hand have better T&C's.....even at a loco entry stage so why would they want to rock the boat on behalf of the CC? Also a young pay to fly cadet might well believe he will have a job at the end of his contract if he keeps his head down. If he doesn't there are plenty more where he came from. He may/may not be better educated than the SCCM on his flight but he will understandably try look after his position.
The experienced Captains are "alright Jack" re T&C's and generally managers are more likely to listen to their views either directly or through representation. However in the current climate even they wouldn't rock the boat on something that they might disagree with but doesn't directly affect them.....there are plenty of contract captains around to replace maverick's.
Management have got divide and conquer down to a fine art and some tactics verge on bullying in loco IMHO. Pilot rarely support Pilot and niether do the CC support each other in any way because we are all on differing contracts/T&C's. Crossing the Pilot/CC boundary is not going to happen anytime soon. We all "talk the talk" when I have tea at the pointy end (no locked door divide metarphorically) but as for walking the walk....
BTW I'm having a trial flying lesson soon as I want to do my PPL. I'm CC because I love flying. I do however have a university degree in another profession.
Hope I can see beyond the end of my nose on my lesson.......
We are so conditioned right from the recruitment stage that we are lucky to work for XXX that we don't dare challenge anything that might jeopardise this. Managers exploit the desire to be CC at every opportunity and so get away with unscrupulous barely legal T&C's. They also target the minimum legal age for CC......people who have minimul life experience and would't even think to question these. They just want their "dream job" that will finance their next night out....
Pilots on the other hand have better T&C's.....even at a loco entry stage so why would they want to rock the boat on behalf of the CC? Also a young pay to fly cadet might well believe he will have a job at the end of his contract if he keeps his head down. If he doesn't there are plenty more where he came from. He may/may not be better educated than the SCCM on his flight but he will understandably try look after his position.
The experienced Captains are "alright Jack" re T&C's and generally managers are more likely to listen to their views either directly or through representation. However in the current climate even they wouldn't rock the boat on something that they might disagree with but doesn't directly affect them.....there are plenty of contract captains around to replace maverick's.
Management have got divide and conquer down to a fine art and some tactics verge on bullying in loco IMHO. Pilot rarely support Pilot and niether do the CC support each other in any way because we are all on differing contracts/T&C's. Crossing the Pilot/CC boundary is not going to happen anytime soon. We all "talk the talk" when I have tea at the pointy end (no locked door divide metarphorically) but as for walking the walk....
BTW I'm having a trial flying lesson soon as I want to do my PPL. I'm CC because I love flying. I do however have a university degree in another profession.
Hope I can see beyond the end of my nose on my lesson.......
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I ve been on both sides, used to be FA and Im FO now, BTW without any education level change in between. What I observed is not a tendency of standing for demands as a group thing (cockpit vs Cabin) but more as a difference btwn classic carriers and LCCs. Once you get to the lower level of aviation (LCC) its interesting to see people are not so attached to the companies to move is always an option, and for cabin crews, the aviation business is getting less an option for lifetime, whilst for cockpit guys, its hard to accept it was a bloody investment to get there, and there aren't many options out of the aviation industry. For instance, i think those who are still lucky to be in a legacy company, should grasp whatever they can before management turns the ops into low cost.
I would say the reason for pilots to keep their own union is because its easier having a smaller and more homogenic group with the persuasion power managements fears.
I would say the reason for pilots to keep their own union is because its easier having a smaller and more homogenic group with the persuasion power managements fears.
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With all of our experience in this industry what is your opinion as to why cabin crew are often not in agreement with flight deck crew when it comes to accepting poorer contracts.
Here is what has been in the news lately: BA cabin crew may strike, Aer Lingus lays off because cabin crew did not accept lower conditions while the pilots did, SAS has internal problems with cabin crew not accepting lower conditions while the pilot group does. This gets me to wonder why cabin crew seem to stand more firm than their colleagues in the front of the plane.
If I had to generalize very broadly I would state that the opposite was true a few decades ago.
Here is what has been in the news lately: BA cabin crew may strike, Aer Lingus lays off because cabin crew did not accept lower conditions while the pilots did, SAS has internal problems with cabin crew not accepting lower conditions while the pilot group does. This gets me to wonder why cabin crew seem to stand more firm than their colleagues in the front of the plane.
If I had to generalize very broadly I would state that the opposite was true a few decades ago.
In contrast to "decades ago" this time none of them can afford to continue present pay and conditions in the current market/ economic downturn/high fuel price/poor premium seat market/high APD/high navigation charge/ high debt environment. It's not only the pilots that can see this clearly but also most of the rest of the staff of these and other airlines. Only the cabin crew seem unable to grasp what has happened.
Meanwhile an oversize Union intent on throwing its weight around has promised the CC something it cannot deliver (but it doesn't care because it's playing its own power game) and lead the CC into a strike most cannot afford.
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Pilots are highly educated, highly skilled, and professionally qualified whereas cabin crew have lower levels of education, and there's is not a profession
These trolly dollies are a dime a dozen, and can be trained in short order.
Cabin chiefs are another class, most with some managerial skills.
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Cabin crew used to be a career, cabin crew used to require qualifications in nursing or multiple languages, cabin crew used to be respected, and used to have permanent contracts, cabin Crew also continue to have a wide range of back grounds and education/intelligence levels just like flight crew. Companies dont want any position to be cosidered a viable career. They don't want you hanging around for thirty years, if attrition is too low the terms and conditions are too good. We now consider BA cabin crew to be paid the best in the industry and how dare they defend their terms and conditions, why are they the best in the industry because they have been defended successfully unlike the rest of the industry. It's a bit two faced to look down on them threatening to strike, there is never a right time to strike. Cabin crew terms and conditions are probably two decades ahead of what flight crew will look forward to, with lots of comments of it's no longer a career, the money is a disgrace for a six month contract, youngsters willing to do it for almost no money because they live at home and fancy doing it for a couple of years. Cabin crew outside of a legacy carrier is no longer a career, before long it'll be the same for pilots. Remember if your thinking yes but pilots are highly trained taking years of intensive training, the dumbing down is beginning MPL anyone?
Last edited by PaulW; 16th Mar 2010 at 23:04.
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Skyhags!
Where I work, the cabin chief is my link between the FD and cabin, and I rely on these folks, all the time.
I have even gone to the trouble, when there were dificulties between CC and the chief, of offloading the entire CC with the exception of the chief, and had the standbys called.
Problem solved, and word got out...mess with the cabin chief and you are dead meat.
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411A if there are difficulties between the CC and the Cabin Chief can I just ask what qualifies you to decide who is at fault other than the command position?
I'm an SCCM your equivalent of a Cabin Chief aka a "Skyhag" as well according to some. I have had some flights where I have had junior crew who are less than professional and that's putting it midly!! I've also worked on many where the same could be said for the in charge. I have worked with many power tripping Pu's over the years.....some are real bully's and have no idea how to get the best out of their crew.
IMHO if the Pu cannot deal with unprofessional behaviour to the extent it involves you, as the Captain, to offload an entire "trolley dolly" crew then there is either something seriously wrong with her leadership skills or maybe the crew have legitimate grievances, who knows? They should not however be labelled as "dead meat" just because you decide to side with the Pu. A full and impartial investigation would need to be carried out to determine who is at fault. In this situation the whole CC, regardless of rank, should be offloaded in the interests of flight safety/CRM.
Anyway back to the thread title as there is a little bit of drift here I feel PaulW has it about right. CC and Pilots will never vote together until the decline in Pilot T&C's catch up with ours......that may be sooner rather than later this side of the pond.
I'm an SCCM your equivalent of a Cabin Chief aka a "Skyhag" as well according to some
. I have had some flights where I have had junior crew who are less than professional and that's putting it midly!! I've also worked on many where the same could be said for the in charge. I have worked with many power tripping Pu's over the years.....some are real bully's and have no idea how to get the best out of their crew.IMHO if the Pu cannot deal with unprofessional behaviour to the extent it involves you, as the Captain, to offload an entire "trolley dolly" crew then there is either something seriously wrong with her leadership skills or maybe the crew have legitimate grievances, who knows? They should not however be labelled as "dead meat" just because you decide to side with the Pu. A full and impartial investigation would need to be carried out to determine who is at fault. In this situation the whole CC, regardless of rank, should be offloaded in the interests of flight safety/CRM.
Anyway back to the thread title as there is a little bit of drift here I feel PaulW has it about right. CC and Pilots will never vote together until the decline in Pilot T&C's catch up with ours......that may be sooner rather than later this side of the pond.
