BALPA and BA in court...

[Dreamshiner]

I'm a he, however it could all different if I wandered into the wrong part of town during my last BKK layover.

If I did, would that make me a modern day suffraget in my stance to get better recognition for the unemployed and those finishing training with our union?

[D O Guerrero]

The shelf stacker analogy has limitations? It doesn't work (or stack up) at all...
I worked in a supermarket in times gone by and I only got paid for what I did. I had no pay whatsoever when I wasn't working and this is most definitely the norm in the supermarkets. The situation at BA is exceptionally fair as regards pay in the market at the moment. Many airlines pay nothing whatsoever to pilots when they're not working (including mine).
This claim is ludicrous and can only contribute to the already clown-like image of BALPA. If this really is the best they can do, I despair.

[dwshimoda]

If you and your ilk truly want to change the world, try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change. Sitting at home, ranting away on an anonymous internet bulletin board doesn't count.

I can't remember the statistics on how many posts it takes before a forum descends to personal attacks, but congratulations on achieving it.

EDIT: I've just read your little rant. We're talking here about holiday pay.

yes, we are, so I say again: explain to me why you should be paid flying pay for being on holiday?

Your blinkered thinking and inability to understand this is similar only to BASSA's stupidity with their current action with BA.

If you and your ilk truly want to change the world, try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change. Sitting at home, ranting away on an anonymous internet bulletin board doesn't count

So explain to me how this action will help me, or more specifically, how it will stop pay to fly heroes, 7/5 contracts, pay by the hour, etc?

Perhaps you should get of your

fat, lazy, offish arse

and do something that actually makes a difference instead of spouting ill-informed and billious crap on an

anonymous internet bulletin board

[elected rep]

[dwshimoda]

Yep - that about sums it up - head in the sand and ignore the real world. Well done. You must be an awesome rep in action.

[dwshimoda]

Dreamshiner...

I dare you!

[Basil]

dwshimoda,

Get real - it's called Flight Pay for a reason - your are flying, and therefore need the allowances.

The Flight Pay referred to is NOT meal allowances which are taxed at a reduced rate.
AFAIK/can remember, when Flight Pay was referred to as Long Range Premium, it IS part of salary and is taxed at the full rate.

The case is paid for by BALPA on behalf of its members of several airlines but a win will also benefit cabin crew.

If anyone does not understand the history of Flight Pay then a Professional Pilots' website is not the place for them to comment.

[Bruce Wayne]

If you and your ilk truly want to change the world, try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change. Sitting at home, ranting away on an anonymous internet bulletin board doesn't count.

elected rep, what you fail to understand is that some of us ARE trying to seek improvements in this industry. That's the industry as a whole, not just one specific operation.

This consistent line that 'You' are BALPA, BALPA is 'You' is bollox. There have been significant adjustments within the industry on a company basis as well as legislative basis, both on a national and industry level that BALPA has ignored. Yet, attempting to open discourse into specific situations are flatly ignored. So, quite simply BALPA's members are not BALPA, BALPA selects what it will fight for its own benefit, not mine or the other 69.42% (per dreamshiner's poll) that are dissatisfied with BALPA's performance.

Yet to expend resources and attention to fight such a minor issue, which in terms of the state of the industry is not even a footnote and ignore more pressing issues is, well insulting.

As for

try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change

Thats about enough of a reason never to see my BALPA membership renewed again this side of the arrival of the horsemen of the Apocalypse and sums up the attitude of BALPA and it's elected reps toward the industry as a whole and you can stick that attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

[Looker]

My Company makes holiday payments to the CAs based on average on board sales commission. This holiday pay is then spread over the year and paid as a monthly addition to basic pay - for a SCM this could be an extra £60 per month.

Guess how much holiday pay the pilots accrue from their sector pay?

Zero

Where is the logic in this?

Whilst I have considerable sympathy with those who want BALPA to do something now about the pay to fly scandal - to be fair to BALPA this court case is the culmination of a dispute that occurred quite a few years ago.

Lets hope we get a positive result.

[Bruce Wayne]

Whilst I have considerable sympathy with those who want BALPA to do something now about the pay to fly scandal - to be fair to BALPA this court case is the culmination of a dispute that occurred quite a few years ago.

So the pay to fly issue may or may not be challenged by BALPA in quite a few years time then ?

[distressedofdorset]

My understanding (and likely to be highly incorrect) is that if flight duty pay is paid at a reduced tax rate it is because it is used for living allowences (e.g. food + drink) that would normally be available to the crew member at home but is not due to the nature of the jobs.

I'm not sure if commission is covered under these rules or not.

Either way I wish them luck as if it happens to one, it will filter down for all.

[shortleg]

So the pay to fly issue may or may not be challenged by BALPA in quite a few years time then ?

I think what they are trying to say is that difficult issues take a while to reach resolution. The holiday pay claim was started some time ago and is now nearing the end. It is possible, I'm sure, to see one item through to it's conclusion while taking action on something else e.g. pay to fly.

[Bruce Wayne]

It is possible, I'm sure, to see one item through to it's conclusion while taking action on something else e.g. pay to fly.

Indeed.

And what is BALPA's position on current issues that cut straight to the nub of T&C's in carriers that are non-BA ?

The only response to date is that "we are having meetings" about specific issues, yet what is the official stance on these issues ? what are these meeting discussing, what is the objective ?

As for the 'You are BALPA, BALPA is You' line, then why are BALPA treating those are actively concerned and making noise for action being treated like mushrooms (fed sh!t and kept in the dark) on theses questions are what the 'meetings' objectives are and what the policies are..

BALPA presents itself as non company specific, yet when the fertiliser is seriously lodged in the air conditioning over an issue that seriously affect the degradation of T&C's in the pilot community the silence is deafening, except for a mere footnote of an issue in respect of additional allowances while on holiday.

Perhaps, the understanding of why BALPA is considered more appropriate for BA crews than non-BA crews and why many in this industry, who are non BA are foaming at the mouth.

See threads on BALPA poll and easyjet management taking the p!ss

These threads contains posts concerning the dissatisfaction of BALPA's performance in these issues and posts from others who are time on type people who cannot get a look in at a flight deck position because they have time on type and are departing this country for jobs overseas.

But hey ho, maybe in a few years, BALPA may/may not have got around to challenging the problem which currently should have already been addressed and has been left to fester.

As one poster here has pointed out the BALPA win on the issue they are going to court with BA will likely turn into a Pyhrric victory for pilots as the tax man, who already has an active interest in the scrutiny of taxation/benefits of pilots will have another reason to evaluate the taxation of allowances to pilots.

[dwshimoda]

Flight Pay

Having been contacted directly by a very helpful BA Skipper today, I now fully understand the terms of this specific Flight Pay, and why it is correct under these circumstances for BALPA to be fighting for it. I still think the following points are still valid:

1) It is terrible timing - I understand now that this is the culmination of several years work, but the timing is appalling. However this is due to the speed that the courts and appeals work, so it's unfair to blame BALPA or anyone else for that.

2) "Flight Pay" has different meanings from airline to airline. At BA it is very different to where I work, and so you cannot compare the two. (Basil:

If anyone does not understand the history of Flight Pay then a Professional Pilots' website is not the place for them to comment.

This therefore applies to you also then, so maybe you would like to retract your words?

3) Getting back to the origin of the thread, I still think that whilst may be a small victory, there are many, many other issues BALPA should be fighting, and with much more teeth. Seeing this happen would help unite us as a workforce, and God forbid, perhaps we might come together and really take the piss poor management to task that is introducing the biggest threats to this great profession. BALPA need to understand this to get people to engage with them. Over 60% are disillusioned according to the poll running on another thread.

Anyway, my thanks to Tim at BA for giving me the full details.

DW.

(ps, flew out on BA today to Prague for a long weekend - uneventful flight, but great Cabin Crew as always - please don't let BASSA destroy your career)

[411A]

...please don't let BASSA destroy your career)

If the CC have their way, BA will be dead in the water, operations-wise.
New faces should have been hired a very long time ago.

[ToneTheWone]

I don't know the exact details of the case so can't say too much, but I'd like to make a couple of points.

A couple of years ago I accepted a job as an FO for a bizjet company. The package was made up of a lowish basic salary plus reasonable flight pay (fully taxed) making a total package which I was happy with. The more I flew to more the more the company earned and the more I got paid. I accepted that when I signed the contract.

The legislation passed by the government regarding holiday pay I'm sure was to protect lowly paid workers (i.e. shelf stackers) from being taken advantage of. It was never intended to benefit well paid professionals such as pilots. If the legislation was brought in whilst I was employed (sadly now been let go) it would never have occured to me to go back to the company and renegotiate my basic salary.

I don't know if MPs get an attendance allowance, but I'm sure the House of Lords do. There would be public outcry if the Lords used the legislation to claim extra holiday pay!

Does anybody know if the case has finished and what the outcome was??