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easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now

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easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now

Old 24th Feb 2010, 16:22
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Clanger I agree. I don't think there is much difference whether the employer is Easy Jet or a third party agency. They have the same responsibilities.

Having had a conversation by e-mail with Flexy Crew at CTC over the last couple of days we have agreed that we will not be entering into any mutual exchange of services and money! Primarily because I am too experienced, and on the wrong sort of 737. Although having seen the T&Cs first hand I couldn't entertain it as a good idea.

I would be delighted to hear of anyone who has a good season with this scheme at the end of the summer. Good luck most sincerely to anyone who goes down this route.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 20:11
  #62 (permalink)  
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easyJet are asking CTC to provide pilots to fly easyJet aircraft for a maximum of £23,000 a year, and thatís if they do 900 hours a year. They are also asking these new pilots to sign a 3 year contract with penalties if they want to drop our before the 3 years is up. Please someone tell me if I am wrong.

So again, a message to easyJet pilots. Your management are taking the piss out of you, me and every pilot in the UK.

I am many others on the outside can not believe that you are not kicking off about this.

My problem is not that its through CTC or Parc, but that you lot seem to think that ďIím alright JackĒ is going to make things any better. Its not.

I and many others canít believe that the easyJet CC with your support are not doing something about this.

Give it another 2-3 years, and it will be too late then. When you have near to 500 pilots in your company on this scheme from around the world, then you wonít be able to do anything about it.
Then you have a 1000 and then those FOís who are on a normal wage now will soon realise that you are an endangered species thatís cost more than others doing the same job as you. It in my last career.

The next thing that is going to happen is DEC and then possibly summer only Captains

Its simple, you do your time, get your job and get paid the same as everyone else on year 1 in that job. No more, no less.

Donít blame these cadets for it. When they started their journey over 15 months ago, CTC had a great record of getting them positions. They are now in a situation of do I or donít I.

Let me ask you all this. If easyJet are taking these cadets on at a max of £23,000 a year, do they or donít they need pilots. Why are they doing this. My thoughts are only that they are using the situation in preparation for driving down your T&Cís.

Its a joke and anyone who says its their fault, well sorry mate, but you are as much to blame if you have that attitude. The "I'm alright Jack" just sums up what idiots you are

Big Bad, I take my hat off to you.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 21:06
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe Jim McAuslan would like to publish open letters he has sent under the BALPA banner to CTC in the past couple of years so we can see how robust he has been.
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Old 24th Feb 2010, 21:42
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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In some airlines this would be a matter for a strike ballot - nothing less. As sure as night follows day, the terms of the contracts the permanent easyjet pilots enjoy(?) will be attacked. Once turnover starts to increase, where do you think the replacement pilots will come from? I'll bet they aren't TRSS F/Os let alone DE F/Os.

A poster several posts ago said that the minimum requirements seem to always keep pace with a level slightly above the hours and experience you as an individual have. Sods law and the way it is folks. As an experienced TOM pilot on the market and looking for employment in UK or Europe the vast majority of recruitment is for people without experience. I find myself as shut out as when I started out. There is nothing good that can come of these schemes however they are dressed up. The CTC (or ATP) scheme initially was a good way of getting into the RHS but it started the rot in the mainstream airlines and we find ourselves 14 years later in this position.

I'm off to the ME instead. I would have liked to try for easyjet but I'm not such an opportunity for exploitation and profit. You only have to see the other thread about how the experienced pilots are being treated if recruited for a summer of possible toil with sleazy and that's a piss take too.
I'm not personally rated to fly with a table but I'd be giving it a wide berth if I were.

So Easyjet pilots - where are your balls?

HS
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 11:47
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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It doesn't take balls to defend yourself.

All it takes is FEAR.

EZY pilots must be the bravest of all pilots (bigger BALLS). Because it is clear that they are FEARLESS.

Very good point!

In Europe, you can't get a gob if you are experienced. Isn't it amazing? You have to be inexperienced! (and be ready to spend a lot of money and then sign a shitty contract).

If they did the same program in BA, or other traditional airline, strike would occur inmediately. Why are EZY seniors different? I can't explain...

In the next 10 years we are to see even more amazing things. But none of them will be "the pilot shortage". Who the hell invented such thing? He has realyl screwed us!

the TSUNAMI will reach all levels, up to the Everest. Non type rated experienced pilots (already drowned) junior FOs (drowned), senior FOs (the water already at the neck level), captains (don't you think your feet are wet?), major or traditional airline FOs (dry, so far) and same airline captains (unless those who retire just before).


How nice!
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 11:52
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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To Man Flex

Why are you imploring BALPA?

You are BALPA. Your move.
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 12:31
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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OK Microburst - let's pretend for a minute that you are a SFO in easyJet who pays his percentage every month to BALPA. YOU are BALPA so what is it that you would do?
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 14:02
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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You direct your question at Microburst but let me chip in a bit more.

I'd be onto my BALPA reps and be over them like a rash wanting to know what the score was and what they were doing about it.

I think that using the TOM example, it would be fair to say that the BALPA reps were squeezed from both ends during the negotiations about the pilot surplus at TOM. I was one of many affected who were regularly on the phone to the reps. I have no idea how much traffic is being generated on Easyjet's BALPA forum or any company bulletin board which may exist, but in the TOM case the exchanges on the BALPA site's main pilot surplus thread alone are over 40 pages long and it spawned many other multipage threads.


It has been very fiercely debated even on the company BB and has got very heated at times. Either the easyjet peeps are really good at keeping any turmoil under wraps or there is little turmoil. Think I know which one applies here.

Gyni, you're right to ask what would YOU do if YOU were an easyjet SFO. That's why EGCC4284 is also asking the question and he doesn't seem to be getting much back. It makes his point rather elegantly don't you think?
Your rhetorical tricks with Microburst, because you think that MB wouldn't actually put their money where their mouth is, illustrates that you don't really understand why the easyjet pilots should be getting far more fired up about this. Either that or you do and you think it's a done deal.

Before too long the easy pilots will be watching the horses ringpiece disappear over the horizon and realise they've left things far too late. If they think they can just move on when things pick up - well if 2 of the largest recruiters aren't taking experienced pilots now when there are shed loads of them on the market, what's the industry, as a whole, going to be doing recruitment-wise when it all picks up. There'll be nowhere to go - unless you're fresh out of flying school with credit to burn.

The US is legislating to stop this, bit of a blunt instrument IMHO, when better oversight and sharper regulatory teeth would have sufficed. Maybe the regulator needs to get some balls too.

HS

Last edited by Harry Shyters; 25th Feb 2010 at 14:21.
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 14:22
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Lightbulb

If they did the same program in BA, or other traditional airline, strike would occur inmediately. Why are EZY seniors different? I can't explain...
Hint: search through my posts of the last couple of years (!) and you will see a few reasons!

As for BALPA, I think Orangedriver summed it up quite nicely in this post:
Problem is - Balpa never worked that way, not in easyJet anyway. Always (in my opinion I should add) too careful, too vague in outlining their goals and how to get there and more importantly - where to draw the line - making the members uncertain, insecure and left with a feeling of lack of leadership leading to weak support for any sort of decisive action.
BTW, where is NormanSF these days...?
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 14:31
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Harry

Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm alone amongst my colleagues in understanding that we do need to be fired up about this and the consequences that it will bring. However, when you are constantly told that we can't really do anything about it and that 'meetings are going on behind the scenes' when you do email or speak to the cc, then what more are we supposed to do on a personal level?
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 15:50
  #71 (permalink)  
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Cmon-PullUP

EGCC, you sound like you have some really personal issues with ezy, so why do you show any interest in the company at all? (did you get rejected?)- You also clearly show that you know sod all about what is actually going on inside the company, so maybe you should do a little more research before you go on crusades again?
Sounds like I have an issue with ezy. Yes I do. The issue I have is they are taking the piss out of you, me and any other professional pilot in the UK

Why do I show an interest. Because what is about to happen in easyJet in the near future affects me, you and everyone in the pilot world. Your T&Cís are being eroded because of what they are doing now. Offering 3 year contract with a max potential earning of £23,000 a year before tax and you are bonded in a sort of way.

Did I get rejected. Yes I did about 4 years ago when I only had 300 hours on light aircraft, but I don't hold grudges. I would apply right now, are you recruiting, where can I apply, how much would I be on. I have 2000 hours 1700 on 737NG. Where can I apply, please tell me. I AM about to be made redundant from Thomson. Please feel free to let me know where I can apply. Oh by the way, will I get what your FOís get or would I be offered £23,000 a year. Oh forgot, I donít have an airbus rating, will I have to buy that first at my own expense or will they do that for me, then bond me like the good old days. Answers on a postcard please.

I know sod all about what is actually going on inside the company. I am very tempted to copy and paste here an e-mail I got from a cadet friend from CTC about what he has been offered, but as it was his e-mail to me, I thought better of it. By the way, I have many friends who work for you, but they were lucky in that they got into your company 3+ years ago, so are not forced into accepting this crap now on offer. I know many with your company and they are great blokes.

Do more research before you go on a crusade? Sorry mate, just making you aware that many on the outside are watching in disbelief regarding what is going on now at easyJet. It really hit me a month ago when a couple of wannabe friends said to me that Ryanair was now better job to buy into than easyJet.

Trust me, if I could apply to easyJet, I would if they offered the wage they should for year 1 FOís

BALPA ARE trying to help the cadets, but HOW are they expected to do much, when the cadets CONTINUE to accept being raped? - They really need to stand up for themselves.
They really need to stand up for themselves, well that says a lot about you. I'm alright Jack springs to mind

All I am asking is this, what are you the pilot workforce asking your CC regarding this. That crap answer of we can't do anything because they are from CTC does not stick.

I like others will have to go to the Middle East and fly a 777, not where I want to live, but its a job and a good one at that

Look forward to more responces from you LOL

I imagine NSF is reading this and I can imagine you think like we do. I don't think bad of you for not commenting on this thread.

Gaz, Black Rabbit just for you

Last edited by EGCC4284; 25th Feb 2010 at 16:14.
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 15:57
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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It is NOT about acceptance of contracts by cadets.

These contracts should have NEVER BEEN OFFERED.

and yes , BALPA should be more pro-active in preventing fake pilot contracts being offered.
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 16:03
  #73 (permalink)  
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My God, a sencible post

Joe, your the man LOL
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 16:22
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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EGCC and others - forgive me if this is a question that you've already answered and i've not spotted it, BUT - are you suggesting that the 'bright young things'(???) who continue to sign on the dotted line are in no way partly responsible for the continuation of these exploitative deals?
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 16:23
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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EGCC, you will see that my statement re BALPA was corrected BEFORE your reply, just to put that into order

- And then i can just add that with your repeated statements that we are all idiots in Easyjet, then our HR dept did a good job by not taking you in. - I wish they would give your colleagues a contract though, one like the one they used to offer outside of CTC.

Good luck on the 777. It's truly a nice airplane
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 17:05
  #76 (permalink)  
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Cmon-PullUP

Can you point me to where I say you are idiots, and I will check if I wrongly used it to label all easyJet pilots. That was not the intention and applogise if I did. Please direct me and I may edit that one. But what I will say is this. If you think that having the attitude of ďIím alright JackĒ that this problem will not develop, then yes those that think that are idiots. Just for the record, I donít think all easyJet pilots are idiots, just the ones with the Iím alright Jack Attitude.

As for your HR doing a good job, do you mean by not employing me? Please feel free to explain that one, what is it you saying? Are you saying I am not capable or would not fit in? Please elaborate. Just for the record, I did not do CTC. I did not buy my way into a job. I am leaving Thomson with 2 years of my bond left and they are wiping the slate clean as I am being made redundant. Sounds to me I was lucky to be employed by a company that at the time I was recruited, did not want to shaft me or the others that started with them in the last 5 years. Yes, your HR are certainly doing a good arenít they.

777, yes a nice plane, canít wait.

sidtheesexist

I was not saying that the bright young things were not to partly blame at all. But look at it from their point of view. They sign on the dotted line 2-3 years ago, go the full hog thinking that they will end up in a good job and then they are offered nothing or this. Do they say no and not get a type rating, 1500 hours and let everyone else pass them, or do they take it to get the experience in the hope the market will change enabling them to be able to move on. The interesting thing will be that once this becomes common knowledge, who will want to sign on the dotted line with CTC for a full time mega buck course when the end product is £70,000+ debt with interest to be offered a £23,000 job with some sort of a clause in the contract that they will be penalised if they leave before 3 years.

The question I have asked time and time again but donít seem to be getting an answer to is this. Are the easyJet CC being approached by any easyJet pilots complaining about what is happening. Are you going to be straw poled on the feeling of your pilot workforce.

One last time, I and many many others on the outside cannot believe you lot are not going ape. At least Monarch pilots kicked off about their little bit of crap and stood together. You may have read about that in the BALAP mag.

I know our CC are shaking their heads in disbelief at what is happening at your place.


NSF, you still alive LOL
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 17:07
  #77 (permalink)  
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Cmon-PullUP

What you doing on Sunday

Would you like to come for Sunday Roast

EGCC4284
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 17:08
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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As a 'cadet' it's nice to see that current pilots, regardless of employer, are talking about this.

For the guys asking cadets to reject the deal:

Most are somehow finding the required up front cash, amazing in itself, for the new deals and are doing so as they have nothing else to go for. Let us be frank. I think the new deal stinks. As a group we might have had some negotiating power given the large numbers involved however the stance taken by HSBC leaves most with little to no options. With the growing number of people accepting the deal we are losing that ability.
Take the job on a pittance in the knowledge that a) you're ultimately degrading terms and conditions for everyone b) you're going to be scraping by and only just at that c) you have no other choice.
The protection of bankruptcy may be needed for some if they take the deal. It almost certainly will be needed if they don't.
The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is all well and good sitting in the ivory tower. The guys are just trying to keep their credit ratings and survive. Significantly most of the current guys are all on unsecured finance. Can you imagine the sheer terror that the others who needed security are feeling, given that as each day rolls by and that first payment is due, so the bank(s) inch ever closer to their front door.

Instead of everyone just complaining and moaning, how about suggesting a way forward?

Reasons for the problems:
Cadets already in the program never anticipated the worst. Perhaps their own fault some will say.
Some did and have other careers to go to. These are an unbelievably small minority and are labeled as negative and pessimistic.
HSBC are not being flexible and will not grant extensions to the finance even in the knowledge that they are, potentially, foreclosing on revenues up to six figures. This could possibly be more if they did offer extensions and compound interest was allowed to increase further still.
With HSBC being unmoving and quite hostile, again understandable given the financial climate we are in, people have no other choice. Entry graduate jobs are massively over subscribed to thanks to a useless Labour government with a massive reduction in the value of a degree.
Core skills such as medicine, engineering, teaching etc are simply not accessible without experience and most have forgone this to take up places on the CTC course.
Oxford cadets have already demonstrated, similar to the ATP and Eaglejet brigade, that they are more than willing to throw large sums of cash at this. I have no doubt that if CTC seniors were to resist the deal completely that the likes of OAA would gladly take over. Imagine all those lovely new placement numbers they could put in their glossy brochure.
Nobody else is recruiting low hour fATPL pilots and can we please stop harping on about FI jobs. There aren't any going either.

Possible Route(s) to Improvement:
????
Cadets to refuse the new deal. We'd need agreement from OAA cadets that they would do likewise and an agreement from easyJet that they will not re-introduce the ATP program or recruit from similar schemes. Fiendishly difficult to do.
Existing employees to strongly push management into offering standard contracts along the lines of 1 job role, 1 standard of remuneration. Simples. How this is not standard now is beyond me. It'd be cause for a strike at any engineering company for sure. Of course this doesn't bring contracting into it. That is a hellishly difficult subject to handle. Unions hate it and I've taken advantage of it myself in previous job roles.
You could plausibly avoid the contracting subject completely. If there are vacancies then employment has to be on permanent contracts. They could easily be fixed term. CTC deals are three year deals and the uptake recently has been substantial and we know they're still undercrewed. No need for recruitment? Bull.....

Like I've said in earlier posts. Orange management have played an absolute corker here. Exploiting contractors is a fantastic way around employed crew and they must be well aware of 1) HSBC's beligerent (sp?) new attitude towards CTC cadets 2) Oxfords willingness to usurp CTC and step into the breach.
Divide, laugh, humiliate, conquer and reap the rewards. It sounds like most of us would....

What do I know. I'm edging towards 30 and have experience in a significantly challenging environment with just as tough financial constraints as aviation but because I only have sub 300 hours flying I must be a fool.
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 17:09
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Cmon-pullup,

Let's be honest here.

EGCC is right in the sense that most of us in easyJet don't give a toss about these new contracts being offered. Most of the guys I speek to either don't care, don't want to know, or comme up with the same "nobody forced them to sign" crap. Same with the Berlin "issue". All people come up with is the usual "well they enjoyed no tax for a while bla bla". I am ashamed, really ashamed at the apathy demonstrated by a lot of us on these issues.

Most people do not realize that the pay to fly, cadet, flexicrew contracts directly undermines ALL our futures in easyJet. IT DOESN'T ONLY AFFECT THE CADETS BUT ALL OF US!!! This is a direct attack on our futures within easyJet, you and the others must understand that. Don't think these contracts will disapear with upturn - they won't. They are here to stay, if we do nothing to stop them. When the upturn comes, and when countless SFO's ldecide to leave for better jobs,( as all they will we offered for a command will be flexible contract on a german B-scale) then how do you think the company is going to fill the gaps? If you plan on staying with easyjet long term, you may find yourself in the uncomfortable situation of being in a minority. What exactly do you think your negociating power would be in such a position?

The company must be laughing their heads off!! Not only are we letting them screw us over, but also by our inaction we are directly screwing our colleagues outside easyJet. No wonder they are pissed off!
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Old 25th Feb 2010, 17:24
  #80 (permalink)  
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ZBMAN

100 Thomson guys being dumped, 100 BMI guys with Airbus ratings, being dumped, Fly Globespan gone throwing 100 pilots on the dole all looking for work in the uk and easyJet are taking cadets via CTC on £23,000 a year IF you manage to do 900 hours.

Then we read crap like it the cadets fault, we donít care, it does not effect me, why should we care, bollocks.

Pissed off is an understatement

I worked in my last profession where the original staff were on £26,000 basic and got overtime and a final salary pension. The company offered them a pay rise of about £2000 a year if they gave up union recognition. They tok it. Within 6 months, 2 more members of staff were employed on a basic of £16,000 a year, then 2 more, then 2 more. Eventually, there was 16 members of staff on £16,000 a year and only 8 left on £28,000 a year. The 8 were then given 90 days notice of change in T&Cís or take redundancy which was a good wedge.

So you see, now is the beginning of you getting shafted in the next couple of years.

Do you bring your own food now, do you pay for car parking yet, do you do sims on days off yet. I think you already buy your uniform.

All I keep saying is this. If you line train a cadet for 6 months, then ok, that was on a reduce rate. But when he has done that, give the guy a job on payscale one like everyone else in easyJet got, not an hourly rate of £25 an hour for the first 500 hours then £55 an hour there after.

YOUR MANAGEMENT ARE TAKING THE PISS OUT OF YOU, ME AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY

Cmon-PullUP

Roast dinner and apple pie with custard. Come on, lets be mates LOL. I am only saying what I and everyone else thinks and wonders what the fck you lot are thinking.

Last edited by EGCC4284; 25th Feb 2010 at 17:38.
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