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More easyJet Pilot Slavery Deals - Oxford Aviation Academy

Old 20th Jan 2010, 22:19
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Think this rules out most of us.

"Candidate Requirements:Respected, qualified Pilots with a current UK TRE (or transferable) authorisation"
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 07:55
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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sidthesexist,

you are unable to accept that well, there really is no hope. If you are UNWILLING to accept it, well, take your head out of the sand. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
A bit "play the man rather than the ball", don't you think? That's what I was gently objecting to in post 337. My head is not in the sand. I work for a company whose Operations Director is known to think training captains an inconvenient cost, nothing more. I think these schemes are immoral and dishonourable and as one who had to attempt to train some "pay to fly types" in a simulator in 2008 I am in no doubt that pure "pay to fly" is no way to recruit pilots for the airline industry. I found two of them so lacking in basic piloting skills I was appalled that they had even managed to gain CPLs. It is well known that a MyTravel A320 main landing gear was bent in July 2007 by a "pay to fly" trainee.

A colleague whose judgement and opinion I respect has been interviewing some of the OAA applicants. He tells me that the calibre of them is high and it is clear that some selection has been done. The OAA 20 have been in the pipeline for a couple of years so embarked on their courses before the present difficulties struck. That should be borne in mind, I feel. I also know, from another source, that the number of applicants for class 1 medicals has fallen significantly in recent times. It would appear that the flow is dwindling. Soon it may be little more than a dribble.

During my time in aviation I have seen some poor terms and conditions. They didn't last long when the market turned as it surely will. Instead of ranting here and simply asserting what you believe, why don't you write as I suggested, presenting a reasoned, coherent argument against the CTC/OAA schemes.

Last edited by Wingswinger; 21st Jan 2010 at 08:43.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 09:30
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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A bit "play the man rather than the ball", don't you think?
If we must talk in cliches then it really does depend what game we are playing doesn't it? This is a contact sport - play the 'man' or in the case of the Oxford 20 play the little boys who need their bottoms wiped.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 10:27
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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When you "retired" from the other thread, I doubt if your vitriol (usually personally directed) was missed.
It seems that your objections hinge not on what these "20" are contributing to the downfall of the profession as a whole, but what their actions do to frustrate your personal aspirations.
Even if you object to their "solution" (and I cannot embrace it either BTW) it seems to me that you are as guilty of the blinkered "look after No1" attitude as you accuse them of.
Strikes me your objections are more self-centred than philanthropic towards the pilot community as a whole.
These "20", embraced a different (and perhaps arguably misguided) solution to their situation than you, but, I would temper, your motivation to complain so bitterly is not so different to what they are displaying by their actions.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 10:55
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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Ok then Sigmund Freud.

'Good afternoon Ladies and Gentleman, this is the captain speaking, my name is playstation and I like to state the obvious......'

Of course my motivation is a personal one. Of course the reason I am interested and have the feelings I have is because of how it effects me. If the industry is no good then it effects me because I have spunked a load of MY money into it. I therefore wish to change it for MY benefit as does everyone else. If it improves, it's good for EVERYONE. These little chumps are not helping matters.

Stop being 'fair' to the Oxford 20, they are not 'misguided' as you put it - you sound like a social worker. They are deliberately getting their rocks off at their parents and all of our careers expense. Why does that annoy me? Because it effects me. It also effects all of you. And no this will not benefit their careers in the long run so do not come back with that rebuttal - we are not on the same page.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 11:01
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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then it effects me because I have spunked a load of MY money into it
Which is exactly what these Oxford people are doing. Just because they have spent (or borrowed) more money than you doesn't make you any better.

Just think if nobody paid for their own basic training the airlines would have to run sponsorship courses.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 11:17
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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It doesn't make me a better pilot no but if I have earned my money and they have imprisoned their parents in high risk debt then it does make me better in that sense. If I have a high paid career to fall back on - that does make me better - it puts me in a postion of power - it shows I have thought ahead.

Just think if nobody paid for their own basic training the airlines would have to run sponsorship courses.
Wooden tit be wonderful.

What they are doing is hellishly reckless. Sure if their parents are very rich then it's their luxury to afford their children the lives they want - just like buying a Ferrari or a house in the Carribean. But I know that some of these people are doing it to parents/ wives that can not afford to lose this money. I don't know how they sleep at night - it is not a calculated risk - the outcome is a foregone conclusion - if you can't see it you are in deepest, darkest denial.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 11:43
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Beak,
I believe it is you who is in denial. Who made you the arbiter of their lives.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 11:47
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Pot Kettle Black

Like you said, you too spunked a large chunk of your own money, methinks you are just a teensy-weensy bit p1ssed off because you either can't, won't, and understandbly object to, paying another chunk to do the same as them

When the previous poster said "you are no better than them", he wasn't saying anything relating to being a better pilot, he was questioning why you come on here moralising, when indeed you, like any of us who spent a cent on our own training costs, are just as guilty of "prostituting" yourself as the next man.
Apart from fully sponsored Cadets from the BEA/BOAC era, and officers of the Queens Flying Club, we are all guilty as charged.
Nobody likes having to pay, but where is your high moral ground, if you have paid up for a licence, to tell the others at which stage to stop paying ?
If their parents/wives support this lunacy, is it really up to you to start dictating what/what not others should do, if they misguidedly (yes it is, and that is not an apology for them) decide to press ahead regardless of what YOU think.
This one man crusade is unlikely to change anyones mind, maybe better for your mental health just to accept that others disagree with you, be they right or wrong.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 11:53
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Wingswinger - didn't realise my post came over as a rant - blunt definitely, but a rant? I had hoped not and on re-reading would politely contend that it is not.

I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible. My understanding of your analogy is that the 'ball' is this type of exploitative deal whereby the tyro pilot is expected to shoulder an unfairly high proportion of the training costs and/or worse still, effectively pay to get RHS time.

Based on that being a correct understanding, well I don't need to make a 'coherent' argument to justify why such schemes are morally indefensible. Isn't it painfully obvious?

So, if we can agree that said 'ball' is an extremely harmful cancer, does it not follow if less 'men' (boys perhaps?) were willing to play the 'ball' then perhaps the cancer wouldn't spread so quickly?

I really hope you are merely playing devil's advocate here Wingswinger. Unfortunately, I suspect not...........possibly due to some sort of personal or financial involvent.....I do not know - I can only speculate.

So, in conclusion, I'll reiterate that the folks who succumb and sign on the dotted line WRT these schemes are SHAFTING THEMSELVES, THE INDUSTRY and the rest of US.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 12:54
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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Beak,
First off I actually agree with you that these type schemes are ruinous to the career over all. I agree that it effects me in that it's a career I have pumped a lot of cash into in order to join and I want - nay NEED - reasonable conditions to be available to me if I make it there.

However. Do you know any single one of the 20 OAA cadets? I'd bet good money almost certainly not. Therefore how do you know ANY of them are using mummy and daddys money, let alone all of them, as opposed to their own. Or is it that you find it impossible to conceive that they may have made the money themselves. Like you have. Or I have.

Oh, that's right, you don't know if they're using anyone elses money or not. You're assuming. What is it they say about assumption? It's the mother of all.....good decisions? no, that's not it....the mother of all correct inferences perhaps..no, no.....

In any case, why is using the fortune of relatives or friends completely out of order to you, yet being given a job at "your mates investment company" - without undergoing proper selection, presumably, is perfectly acceptable? Alright that last one would never stand up in a court of law as it's conjecture and hearsay, but it pretty much fits with what you display. Do you really not get it? You didn't get your high paying job on merit, you got it through friends and relatives...not SO very different from borrowing from "mummy and daddy" now, is it. Of course I await the obligatory outraged response, where you'll probably insult me and say that you definitely, absolutely got your job on your own merits and it's nothing to do with being done a favour by someone you knew. Of course it is.

The fact is that neither you or I have any right to determine how, when or where someone should spend the finances available to them. Personally I did not - and do not - think this is the "right" opportunity, but that's by the by. It's not MY money those candidates are spending.

Your entire spiteful, vitriolic problem with the OAA guys/gals seems to stem from the fact that "they weren't selected". But they were. You've been told the minimum selection criteria by someone that KNOWS what it was. You've been told by an easy TC that the interviews were conducted as normal and the standard was high. You seem to gloss over that. Yet, you [say you] have no problem with the CTC cadets getting marginally less shafted....a very curious stance....both are paying to fly, both are "destroying industry Ts and Cs" - one could even argue that the CTC guys/gals were LESS selected, as THEIR selection was before their training and therefore is less current to their skills. Hence your argument seems to fall down repeatedly and seems to be nothing more than an attack on OAA itself, which is why you keep being accused of being bitter and perhaps failing an OAA assessment.

There's an old saying I once got told - like most such old proverbs it's trite, but a lot of truth within. "If one man tells you you're ill and you feel fine, ignore them. If ten men tell you you're ill, lie down".

Beak - go have a nice lie down. There's a good chap.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 13:22
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Ok, slightly off topic but from reading the posts, I would just like to point out something.

When something is changing your wellbeing you use the word affect not effect. So this situation really affects me for example.

Sorry, got it off my chest now. Argument may continue.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 14:01
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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sid,

didn't realise my post came over as a rant - blunt definitely, but a rant? I had hoped not and on re-reading would politely contend that it is not.
Yes, blunt to the point of rudeness I felt.

Your understanding of the clichéd analogy is correct. It may be painfully obvious to us who work in the industry but, I can assure you, it is not to those on the outside. You would have to explain slowly in words of one syllable. I tried it on my daughter who is a Ph.D looking for an academic post and neither thick nor slow on the uptake. Her response: So what. If you think terms for these youngsters are poor (and they are), you should try pay and conditions in tertiary education.

I'd be intrigued to know on what grounds you suspect that I have some sort of personal or financial involvement other than simply being employed as a TC, a fact which I have not hidden.
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 15:37
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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It depends on those 10 mens experiences that lead them to that conclusion doesn't it Clanger, if they too have paid to fly then they are hardly the fairest of judges as to who is 'ill'. That aside I think I have made my point more than clearly and beyond that we will cover the same ground, go around in circles and reiterate. The thread is becoming a touch boring and incredibly pointless as the 20 will be on their type rating now.

As for my role as broker, believe me people couldn't afford to keep you on if you weren't any good - regardless of how much they liked you. It is a meritocracy - the way it should be.

Though irrelevant, a worthy point made by Pilotho!
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Old 21st Jan 2010, 19:01
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Wingswinger

The reason for my suspicion, is your apparent reluctance (perhaps I need to scrutinise your posts more thoroughly) to accept that these folks (signing up for these exploitative deals) are in anyway responsible, by the act of signing, for their continued existence!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, we all bemoan the state of the industry yadedadeda etc ad nausium, but to deny their responsiblity in all this is quite frankly, ludicrous.

I cannot believe I am still on here trying to pursuade intelligent folk of the validity of this point. Quite frankly, I give up.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 07:39
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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sid,

I don't think anyone has denied anything. It's rather like blaming people for high house prices and unmanageable debt, isn't it? If only we could stop pesky folks from taking the loans on offer and bidding the prices others ask then everyone could afford his/her own roof over his/her head.

How do you propose to stop tyro pilots swallowing commercial bs and signing up to an exploitative deal? I'll lay money they've all looked at the threads here and yet they've still done it. Human nature is a wierd thing isn't it? You and I know they shouldn't do it but they think otherwise. Let them find out the hard way. On the other hand, they could be calling it right and be in an excellent position when the market turns. Only time will tell.

Having people pay for a TR and line training is not good. MyTravel paid the real price in 2007 and it could have been worse. I don't think sensible airlines will do it any more. Having people selected to pay for a TR and line training is marginally better from the aptitude and ability point of view and that is what is happening now. The real objection is on moral, safety and security grounds. The public and legislators have to be interested in what is going on. At the moment they're not. Try writing to the national press, your MP and the Transport Select Committee at the House of Commons.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 10:03
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Devil

Regarding Wingswinger, I completely back his views. The Beak, during the course of his unfortunate rants, has not grasped some critical details. The first is that the OAA guys, love them or hate them, have gone through a selection procedure that is as rigorous as any in easyJet's history. By any critieria they have made the grade and are bona fide applicants to join easyJet. I realise the same could not be said of last year's ATP scheme but that is now gone. That is not to take away from any individual who got through the scheme, but the success rate was way too low compared with that from a group of traditionally selected pilots. The top end of the scale was fine but the bottom end was not - as the success rate showed. I believe that easyJet has learnt its lesson and will not go through such a system again. These OAA guys have been recruited in a totally different way, so it is not true to say they are sub-standard. Whether they are wise or not is another matter. Also, the financial arrangements are such that the scheme massively disadvantages those from less well-off backgrounds.

Also sidtheesexist, I can again only agree with Wingswinger and not apportion blame to the individuals. We all did what we had to do in order to get a start in flying - they can hardly be blamed for doing so. This is not a moral issue from the cadet's perspective - but the same could not be said from the company's.

Finally, just to clear up any doubt, Wingswinger is not management but is a highly-respected senior Training Captain at easyJet with a level of experience most of the contributors here could only dream of. I personally find his arguments very persuasive. Whether you like his thoughts or not, they do come from someone who seriously knows his stuff and I would recommend listening to him.
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 10:32
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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I actually agree with Beak that this thread has pretty much run it's course. I also have to hang my head in shame, for as Pilotho has pointed out, in a frenzy of keyboard activity I was indeed using the incorrect word. effect. blimey. What was I thinking.

Anyway. At risk of then prolonging the thread, I just had a couple more points.
1. Beak. So, just so we're absolutely clear here - and to make sure I've understood you correctly:
  • You have absolutely no problem with people avoiding proper selection and being helped out by family and friends, as long as you're the beneficiary. If anyone else does it, then they're spoiled little mummy and daddys boys?
  • It's ok to be helped out, as long as you can cut the mustard once you're in position, but the OAA cadets are definitely all going to underperform AND be kept on
  • It's ok for the CTC cadets to accept this rumping and indeed they are deserving of sympathy, because they were selected (probably 2+ years ago), whereas the OAA cadets ONLY had to pass the OAA 2 day selection process, achieve more than 85% and first time passes in all ATPL exams, had to pass their CPL and IR with first series passes and then had to pass the interviews. Alright - if you want to argue the OAA selection process isn't perhaps the final word in flight crew selection, I wouldn't argue...but there are PLENTY of people who fail it...
  • The OAA cadets are entirely to blame for daring to have the money to pay for this scheme. eJ would NOT have done it if the OAA cadets weren't willing to pay. The CTC scheme is TOTALLY different and in no way are those guys actually doing exactly the same thing.
  • This scheme would be perfectly acceptable if only eJ had advertised it in the back of Flight to anyone that wanted to apply...you can't blame eJ for the obvious taking avantage can you?
I'm not actually having a go here, but I think you have missed half the detail of the OAA scheme (Although you think you haven't). I think in missing the detail, you are blaming the wrong people - and given you don't know any of these people you are being exceptionally vicious for no reason. I'm guessing that you don't actually think this scheme would be acceptable if advertised to all in Flight - so then surely the point is that the offerance of the scheme itself is wrong, NOT that the actual people that have taken it up came from OAA. A valid point, however, is that whoever does take these schemes up is contributing to their continued presence. That is a different argument altogether.
You say it depends who the ten men are? Well let's take a look....an easy TC, a Freight dog captain with >20000 hours and 35 years experience, someone that turned down the scheme because they thought it was wrong, but at least knows the offer that was made? yes, worth ignoring...


Sid - watching your discussion with Wingswinger with interest. You're both right. "If only" all cadets would stop doing these schemes, then yes, they WOULD disappear. However, in the five years I've been researching, training and qualified things have only got worse - and this off the back of a hiring boom! The vast majority do NOT - through conscience, principles or simple lack of finance -do these schemes, yet there is always some that can - and that small few provide enough demand to continue the trend. Indeed to WORSEN the conditions of the schemes, for it's no longer just "pay your type rating and have a job....we're now at "pay your type rating AND your initial line hours AND have a temporary job not employed by us directly AND on crap money".

These few don't care, they see that conditions are worsening and decide to jump before it becomes first "pay for your line training", then "pay for first 500 hours" then what? "pay for 1500 hours", "pay for command"? As a newbie, it's difficult to see any point where it will stop. Would you blame someone right now if they paid for their TR and it had a permanent job attached? I'd guess not....but that just illustrates how bad it's got and WHY people like me feel obliged to act or see the career disappear forever (because, the sad truth is, if we know if WE don't take that SSTR spot, someone else will - and the next opportunity will be x% worse for us)

To use Wingswingers analogy of the housing market, it's kind of like being a first time buyer who can just afford something right now, but thinks prices are mad. How long do you sit there and wait for the house price crash you're sure is coming whilst watching prices go up and up and up before you take the plunge? You've sat and watched as the two bed terrace you COULD have bought at the start (if only you'd gone for it) goes out of reach and before you know it, your only choice is a one bed bedsit (if that's not tautological!) or nothing. And yet you're still sure it's mad, it's wrong...but it's NOT abating, house prices continue to spiral away from you. So act, or forget it. Would you blame someone for buying that bedsit?

People have to realise that yes, PTF is ruining the industry and that yes, if only people would stop buying their way onto the flight deck it would stop. But you also have to realise that you will never, ever, ever consolidate every single FTO graduate into a cohesive unit that will act in a manner that would produce the best outcome for both them AND the longterm future of the industry. Why should they? The industry itself won't do this - even now when it's about as bad as anyone thought it could get, people still won't act - and do anything to help them out.

There's no point crying about what "should" be but never will be. Regulation is the way out of this mire and as Wingswinger points out, that's where attention needs to be focussed - how we change regualtion. IMHO, of course. Force the airlines to have two qualified and fully, directly employed pilots on the FD for every single revenue earning flight and see what happens then....I'll tell you...the PTF will die very, very quickly, because there's no benefit.

Apologies for the lengthy post
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 14:33
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Beak, what are you doing to keep your hand in these days since you seem to have all the answers??
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Old 22nd Jan 2010, 15:04
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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This is what I hate about these threads - they easily come off topic and get personal - though not necessarily in a particularly nasty way in this instance - it's completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I am flying aeroplanes TRon and beyond that it is on a need to know basis and you don't need to know.

I fully retire from these Easyjet threads, they are well and truly boring now and completely directionless. Absolutely pointless.

Clanger if you want a response to your questions by all means PM me.
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