Who has the highest training related debt?

[Deep and fast]

Well with the redundancies really starting to occur, who has the highest training debts, and how are you planning to pay them.

I'll kick off. £12000 over 5 years bmi reggie fo scheme, although if made redundant in 90 days I guess I'm off the hook!

D and F

[Love_joy]

£12k??? Is that it?

I borrowed the €85k needed to complete my zero to hero ATPL at Jerez in 06/07.

I am currently earning in £ sterling.... need I say more


(As an aside, FTE have changed their finance options to include a package sold in STG £ - and I cannot recommend this school enough).

[leeds 65]

Spent about 120K euro in total.training,accomodation,food,flights and then a TR.

Paid off 20K. Another 4 years to go

[alpha.charlie]

roughly £85,000 ---> fATPL

To put that into context, that's a stack of dollar bills 45ft high!

........or a used Ferrari F430.


This thread should be a sticky in the Wannabes forum.

[Deep and fast]

Hey folks don't forget to say how you pay!

D and F

[Tolan]

£68k = fATPL+A320TR+Line training (All JAA).

Finished December 2008, first job February 2009.

[sky-diver]

I’ll add my info, just for the fun of it all!

Debt is circa £65K. This was for a modular course, MCC and partial payment for a 73 rating. Debts are across loans (when rates were cheap), credit cards (when 0% was around) and a training loan at 2% above base rate!

Like a few others out there and many more to come I’m sure, I have been made redundant. However, I have a good enough rating behind me and close to 2000hrs TT, with the best part of 1700hrs on type for when it picks up again – and it will!

I had been paying, note the word had, close to £1100 per month on a monthly basis with no problems as it was affordable. However when I heard of redundancies, I knew I’d be on the list due to the selection criteria. c'est la vie!

How am I paying for it all? Well, I pay each of my creditors £1 per month as a contribution, which is agreed with each company and will keep any court action at bay. This way, I can retain as much of my remaining salary for when I am not working! When I secure employment, I will go through my options with my creditors with regard to a trust deed, more of that below!

I was surprised how easy going the banks are about my situation. Most are helpful, with one of my creditors being forceful about the situation. Just be careful what you tell them.

For those who are facing redundancy, get solid financial advice as soon as possible. I cannot stress this enough. At the moment, banks are doing all they can to recover funds as they know people are loosing their jobs. They are more than happy to take any contribution you can afford. Any county Judge or local Sheriff will fall in your favour if you are paying contributions, be that £1 – especially if you have no income!! A win win situation.

With the banks being so desperate to recover funds, I would urge anyone with financial difficulties, after seeking advice, to look at IVA’s if you are in England or Trust Deeds in Scotland. Not sure if such things exist elsewhere in Europe. These are legal debt recovery schemes, which aim to recover a minimum of 10p for every £1 of debt – meaning if you have £70k of debt, you can if your situation allows, reduce this to £7k + legal costs over a period of 3 years.

Also, if you have any financial agreements such as loans or credit cards each with less than £25k in the UK prior to 1st April 2007, there are a number of companies who will look at writing your debt off due to contractual errors in the financial system. No April fool joke there, just search the web!!

For those in trouble, or very close to – try these links:


Payplan

Consumer Credit Counselling Service (CCCS)

Citizens Advice


Caveat Emptor……

Redundancy will leave you in a terrible financial situation, period!

Do as much research as you can, double check what you have read and been told and take nothing for granted. I have spent hours on the net and discussed at length my actions with the banks. Yes my credit rating will be screwed for the next few years, but I could not have borrowed more, or moved funds around when the cheap offers dried up.

Debt will be one of the downfalls of this country and we, just as much as the banks are to blame no matter what many say. We borrowed the money on the never never and the bankers took the risks just the same.

On the positive side, my actions with the use of a trust deed will have me debt clear in three years and although there is a small financial penalty for doing so, for me it is worth it.



Best of luck to us all!!

[indonesia]

No payback

Hi,
I made my ATPL in Germany and spent 60.000 Euros with no typerating. Direct after I finish training I did not get a job and declared Private Insolvency, so I do not have to pay back anything! Thats the advantage, the disadvantage is that the whole case takes six years, in which I am not allowed to take any credit. Anyway I earn good money as Lufthansa Flight Attendant, good luck!
After the six years I will be released of all my debts!
Right now they are looking for a lot of Pilots in Indonesia, but the Typerating for Lion Air at CAE costs 28.500 Euros, I can not manage to get that money!
If you live in another country of the EU than in that where you declare your case of Insolvency, it is done in 1.5 years!
Good luck!

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Yes my credit rating will be screwed for the next few years, but I could not have borrowed more, or moved funds around when the cheap offers dried up.

That is the big issue when it comes to IVAs.

Is it all worth it?

In which other trade or profession would you to expected to take out a loan to the amounts quoted and then (possibly) consider an IVA in order to get you out of the financial mess?

It really is all madness for a career which may or may not prove to be the Utopia imagined.

Fianancial problems for years and credit issues after that!

The financing of pilot training is in a mess - but so long as people are willing to sell their futures for someone else's benefit I'm sure the likes of MOL, PM and those in the 'orange' company will smile all the way to the bank.

It is without precedent that so little sponsorship has been offered relative to the expansion of the industry.

When I was a lad the whole of my training was paid for, including exams, college, day-release - it would have been unheard of that I should be expected to pay for it myself.

In respect of flying training, the costs up to CPL and FI rating are reasonable if you want to fly for recreation. The cost of an IR and ATPL are unreasonable, but accepted these days as airline entry requirements. But to have to pay for a TR (other than by bonding) and then line training is outrageous in my opinion.

But so long as there are numpties out there willing to chase their dream, the employers will continue to take advantage.

No point complaining - the situation is a self-perpetuating and one fuelled by the candidates, not the employers.

The perception is that it's the big bad employers who take advantage - not so - it's the air-brained pilots who enable the situation to exist.

So don't complain, the problem is of our own making.

KR

FOK

[Caudillo]

Sky-diver, I think you should be applauded for what's a brutally honest post.

What an eye-opening advertisement for this career. This should be read, read again, and then re-read once more for good measure by anyone considering flying, these days it's about as productive as a crack habit.

[Say again s l o w l y]

It's when I read threads like this. I realise how lucky I was to train when and where I did and to also thank the great God of property profit for allowing me to train without debt.

Sky-diver, good post and all the best.

[Denti]

Still around 20k € debt after 9 years on the line but diminishing fast. Happily no redundancy in sight, in fact we are in the process of hiring 120 new FOs currently for positions in switzerland and germany, rumours of even more open positions during the next year.

[mikehammer]

Debts now paid off from sale of property, however, costs were approx. £50,000 ATPL (started January 2000), and two year bond for type rating (fair enough). Which has bought me what? A load of experience that is currently unsaleable. Great.

I am not grumbling too much because, unlike many I am still flying and still working, albeit earning less than one quarter of my final year salary in my previous profession, surveying and property development. Should have stayed put there (it was s**t though)!

Not a great financial investment, but, like Sky Diver (good luck to you Sir), I am hopeful for the future.

[sky-diver]

Thread creep here!!!!!

FOK,

There are a number of other professional career paths out there, which require a great deal of commitment in both effort and finance. Law, Engineering, Medicine are all similar!

The differences between those and aviation, are established career paths which are well known and traditionally accepted. When you go off to Uni to get your degree and then continue to achieve your masters, you are well aware that you will get a placement in one of the associated professions, professional practices. After a few years of poor pay you know that if you’ve kept your nose clean and stayed aware from all of the partner’s daughters, you’ll be earning a good salary – equivalent to a jet F/O salary.

The biggest difference between these industries and ours is that the employers know that to get good quality employees, they have to invest in them with salaries and continued professional training.

Aviation seems to lack this savvy attitude towards retention. Instead, the industry looks to save pennies in training and all other parts of its business – T&C’s included. And at the moment, they have this liberty and will continue to until a serious accident occurs (have a read of the latest issue of “The Log” re. a cadet at Monarch), the world aviation market picks up or there is a serious lack of initial training. Manufacturers, maintenance and training providers all help with making it all as cheap as can be, just so that Johnny Fart Pants and his shell-suit clad ned pals can sit on seats. The latter is what it’s all about!

But the worst culprits are the employees! As soon as a better deal shows its cards, they are gone like the fly to the UV light! Heck, they will even pay to do the job and this is where it all goes wrong. The rest we all know about, because we are here reading these forums and flying the line!

What, in my opinion is needed to change this industry, is a change to the attitudes of the licensing authorities. But that is a whole separate conversation.

I say the above with some level of knowledge, having been a professionally qualified engineer for, well long enough!

FOK, I agree with almost most of what you say, but until the revolution comes…….

Back to thread…..

Thanks for the positive comments folks, they are well received!

[The Real Slim Shady]

One of the major difficulties in this profession, compared to Law, Medicine etc is the pernicious seniority list syndrome.

Encouraged and promoted by the unions it has destroyed mobility and career progression: until company lists are eradicated nothing will change.

When you have to start from square one, again, it inhibits free movement of labour and progression: if, when you were handed your ATPL you went on a pan European seniority list ( being as we are all under EU Ops, it would level the playing field and stop Air France,KLM and Lufthansa insisting that you speak French, Dutch, German.

It would also allow you to move from Company A to Company B at the same seniority level and salary.

[max alt]

Mr Kipling,there is no greater self demeaning statement than "self improver" when it comes to flight training.It suggests a back door type entry.
We are all by definition life self improvers are we not.I prefer and have corrected those at interview to say self sponsored.
Good luck to all those that are without a position at present.Keep positive and keep writing.Keep your hand in at flying clubs,members are always on the look out for safety pilots,cross chanel trips etc.
All the best.
Joe.

[Oldschoolflyer]

Watch out if you are training down in Jerez, there are a few distractions perilously close to the airport. A young man could spend all of his flying tokens if he's not careful...So I hear.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Sky-diver

Thank you for your response to my comments.

Like you I have had an alternative career - six years professional training at university colleges, including many years of CPD training - all free and, until I commenced in practice on my own account, included professional membership fees, car, pension, healthcare and the like.

The first course I have had to pay for in over 30 years is a Masters degree, which I am now studying towards for both personal and professional reasons.

In contrast, like everyone else I know in commercial aviation, I have had to finance my own training from PPL to ATPL, but not type ratings. I would rather have had no job at all than pay for that. I don't mind being bonded and in fact have for the three commercial type ratings I have acquired.

The comparison is just so marked. Yes I appreciate that other professionals have expense with their training to a greater or lesser extent, but flying seems to be a profession/vocation without precendent with people committing themselves far more completely. The risks are greater from several points of view and the rewards uncertain, again from several perspectives.

I would not have missed flying my shiny jet, but I still find it difficult to reconcile this, somewhat selfish ambition, to the benefits achieved. My personal life has been a disaster due primarily to airline flying and as time goes by I wonder whether it really was all worth it in the end?

I would never try and dissuade anyone from pursuing their dream of becoming a pilot, but there are costs to be paid as a consequence - most of my colleagues and friends who have progressed furthest are unmarried with no children. Their whole lives committed to aviation. I was always keen on flying, but not at the expense of a 'balanced' life. Even during training I made sure the family had their benefits too, although in the end it proved all too much.

Low cost airlines boast of the profits they make and the cheap fares they are able to offer - this is due, in some part, to the fact that their pilots come cheap. Imagine the dint in profits caused by ab initio training of pilots? £100,000.00 per cadet (at least).

I accept that people move on and there is a risk with training costs - but that is always the case. For all those people (like myself) who have moved on from their initial training organisation there are many who have stayed and some who have come from other organisations who, in turn, had trained them.

Overall, I still maintain that there is an imbalance in aviation when compared to other professions and that, as pilots, we fuel the fire. Whether that is a personal issue, a regulatory matter, an insurance requirement or just employers taking advantage the fact remains - there is no mainsteam profession that compares with commercial flying when it comes to both commitment and cost of training compared with the prospects and risks of employment.

I am as highly qualified as I can be in my first profession and hold an ATPL in my second. I have taught in university colleges and worked as a flying instructor. These are my personal observations and I appreciate that others are entitled to theirs.

However, flying has cost me far more economically and personally than I could ever imagined. Whether in terms of cost/benefit analysis a flying career has been worthwhile the jury is out.

Pilots are a breed to themselves and no amount of debate will change their attitudes - and the airlines and aviation industry thrive on that fact.

KR

FOK

[AlpineSkier]

@ sky-diver

I note your comparisons between the lawyer and an FO but you fail to mention one hugely important point.

If you believe lots of newspaper articles ( never in that trade myself ) , lawyers are going to be putting in 55- 70 hrs per WEEK to earn that money. How does that compare to the cockpit ? ( Let's foret the commute hours as lawyers have those too - and probably longer as at peak times)

I spent my working-life in industry and - once you moved even into the lowest level of manaement cf FO - that would be a minimum 50 hour week. This comment based on five different UK cos.

[Mucky Devil]

Most who have begun flying in the last decade have paid their own way. No one forced us to sign up for a SSTR. I would think it would take a special sort of person, who having got to the fATPL stage and receiving an offer would decline it for the greater good of the pilot workforce.
Cannot see that it will ever go back to the 'good old days'. I don't think i would have the job i have under the old system, so it would a bit pointless to moan about the debt that goes with it.