Easy worse than Ryanair
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BALLSOUT, I would hate to have to use the term "apologist", but you paint a very rosy picture where salaries (for F/O's in particular) and the joy of being a contractor, are concerned.
Do you think you are seeing the "big picture" here? suggest a straw poll among your colleagues in other bases before you trumpet 5000€ probably 7000€, for F/0's, the latter figure is what many take each month as Capt's after tax, except the "new- or voluntarily rebased" who take even less.
Let us be honest at least, or perhaps we really should have a little poll.
OK guys, you work for Ryanair, how much baksheesh a month, do you get? in recent times Girona was 7000€ a month as Capt, if not dicked around, and no Annual Leave, after 6 years service
Let the truth be out
The 150,000€ quoted on the other thread ?
. . . my @rse
Do you think you are seeing the "big picture" here? suggest a straw poll among your colleagues in other bases before you trumpet 5000€ probably 7000€, for F/0's, the latter figure is what many take each month as Capt's after tax, except the "new- or voluntarily rebased" who take even less.
Let us be honest at least, or perhaps we really should have a little poll.
OK guys, you work for Ryanair, how much baksheesh a month, do you get? in recent times Girona was 7000€ a month as Capt, if not dicked around, and no Annual Leave, after 6 years service
Let the truth be out
The 150,000€ quoted on the other thread ?
. . . my @rse
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NSF -
Tell that to all the crew in Germany who are living in a void with no sense of security and basically without a (proper/legal?) contract from 1st of January. They have have been told for the past 10-12 months that a new contract would be negotiated and signed by the end of the year. The company deliberately delayed starting the negotiations, despite being pushed by BALPA on several occasions, again showing their lack of respect and interest in the crew and their families. This latest delay was nothing more than a way of further delaying the process and avoiding a potential strike over Christmas. Now you are left with threatening to strike in Jan/Feb. I know who'll be laughing all the way to the bank, and it will not be the easyJet pilots.
I am all for a more "diplomatic" solution to these kind of problems but in EZY this kind of approach should have been abandoned at least a year ago. Now the EZY pilots are paying the price for not doing so.
It is really sad to see where this company has gone over the past 12-18 months and I fear that this is only the beginning.
Good luck to everybody, RYR, EZY, BMI and BA. You/we will all need it.
CP
I am cautiously heartened by the recent communication from BALPA of 26th November which announced what is effectively a cooling-off period to provide room for 'fresh thinking'. I think that is good news, as it gives an opportunity for wise people to seek a way out of unnecessary conflict while it is still possible.
I am all for a more "diplomatic" solution to these kind of problems but in EZY this kind of approach should have been abandoned at least a year ago. Now the EZY pilots are paying the price for not doing so.
It is really sad to see where this company has gone over the past 12-18 months and I fear that this is only the beginning.
Good luck to everybody, RYR, EZY, BMI and BA. You/we will all need it.
CP
NSF!
How about you just tell us what would make you vote for and go through with a strike ?? For about a year now, you have been advocating the "sensible" approach. What positives have come out of that you think ?
Cause I am beginning to wonder if you and I work in the same company ??
For me it has been generally downhill since march 09. We have been cheated, ignored and constantly pushed towards poorer T & C's .
Look at the "big picture" mate. Have things stayed the same ?? Have they improved ? Are they likely to stay the same, improve og get worse in the coming 1-2 years ?
Answer that question, and tell its not time to put the foot down......
How about you just tell us what would make you vote for and go through with a strike ?? For about a year now, you have been advocating the "sensible" approach. What positives have come out of that you think ?
Cause I am beginning to wonder if you and I work in the same company ??
For me it has been generally downhill since march 09. We have been cheated, ignored and constantly pushed towards poorer T & C's .
Look at the "big picture" mate. Have things stayed the same ?? Have they improved ? Are they likely to stay the same, improve og get worse in the coming 1-2 years ?
Answer that question, and tell its not time to put the foot down......
Originally Posted by captplaystation"
OK guys, you work for Ryanair, how much baksheesh a month, do you get?
Lowcost 738 F/O no prizes for guessing
Nov £4400
Dec £0
Jan £800
Feb £2800
Mar £4800
April looking like £2400
all before I deduct tax and NI and take into account expences
no benifits apart from staff travel on large network and as much hot water as I like.
Nov £4400
Dec £0
Jan £800
Feb £2800
Mar £4800
April looking like £2400
all before I deduct tax and NI and take into account expences
no benifits apart from staff travel on large network and as much hot water as I like.
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Ah, Norman. Articulate, moderate and gentle as usual. Deluded, of course, but very pleasant with it. You are missed.
Perhaps the news that we're in advanced base talks with Global Infrastructure Partners, the new owners of LGW, will renew your faith in we across the sea? I, for the life of me, can't figure out why you save such venom in reserve for us paddies when your own world sounds like Auschwitz in Orange to me. But if you can manage to get your boys angried-up enough to strike in the run up to Chrissy, I'd be forever grateful. As you and I both know, Norman, there ain't nuthin' like a strike, or a great big sick-off, to rip the arse out of forward bookings.
Ryanair will happily take your customers at our new Gatwick base, and in the fullness of time, Norman, I will delight in presenting you with your harp-of-erin wings and brown spotty tie personally. Oh, and no need to worry about no unions on our side of the Irish Sea. We have IALPA, the Keystone Kops of organised labour, to hold your hand and massage your ego in ways that BLAPA, plainly, cannot.
Welcome aboard, old boy.
suffice to say it would be a dark day for virtually any airline pilot in a jet company if they were forced to seek employment there
Ryanair will happily take your customers at our new Gatwick base, and in the fullness of time, Norman, I will delight in presenting you with your harp-of-erin wings and brown spotty tie personally. Oh, and no need to worry about no unions on our side of the Irish Sea. We have IALPA, the Keystone Kops of organised labour, to hold your hand and massage your ego in ways that BLAPA, plainly, cannot.
Welcome aboard, old boy.
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Good Find, fiddleing figures a little though, lets continue the trend.
Lowcost 738 F/O no prizes for guessing
Nov £4400
Dec £0
Jan £800
Feb £2800
Mar £4800
April looking like £2400
May £5300
june £4000
July £3600
august £5800
September £3000
october £5100
November £4300
December £3500
all before I deduct tax and NI and take into account expences
no benifits apart from staff travel on large network and as much hot water as I like.
Gross now £3557 and average is increaseing.
Lowcost 738 F/O no prizes for guessing
Nov £4400
Dec £0
Jan £800
Feb £2800
Mar £4800
April looking like £2400
May £5300
june £4000
July £3600
august £5800
September £3000
october £5100
November £4300
December £3500
all before I deduct tax and NI and take into account expences
no benifits apart from staff travel on large network and as much hot water as I like.
Gross now £3557 and average is increaseing.
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I cannot comment on RYR conditions, at EZY the management have become very aggressive and narrow minded in their approach, the atmosphere on the flight deck is becoming ever more militant and although I understand NSF's reluctance to strike, trust me it scares the AMB more than the line pilots, a strike may have been averted over Christmas, half term in the next quarter can be just as damaging to the company or Easter after that, yes damaging to us as well but we are being pushed to it. Unfortunately the company wants to go down the BRK way and we have got to stand our ground! It's not an easy environment with so many airlines in trouble and I appreciate that a secure job is great but long term this is a battle that must be won!! If the company was losing hundreds of millions or in real danger we would be open to help 'share the pain' but with profits and continued mega Bonuses as a reward for poor fuel hedging and crew food decisions we have to stand our ground or suffer the consequences in the good years ahead!!
As for our esteemed clogged footed one, bye bye in 2010!!
As for our esteemed clogged footed one, bye bye in 2010!!
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I personally take no offence whatsoever at Leo's post. His undying and unabashed devotion to his beloved master, the arch-leprechaun himself should serve as a warning to us all about what could be round the corner if Ryanair gain dominance at Gatwick.
To all those with a negative take on my position, you are all of course entitled to such views. I have made it quite clear that I would support BALPA unequivocally in any strike. Nonetheless, I strongly believe that a strike is in no one's interests and is definitely avoidable. As Leo so alarmingly points out, talk of strikes would be disastrous for forward bookings and this is not the way forward. All easyJet pilots will have received a very interesting personal e-mail from Andy Harrison today, and without divulging the details on a public forum we should give credit where credit is due. Can you imgaine Michael O'Leary ever sending such an e-mail to his pilots? I don't think so. I personally interpret this e-mail as an admission of past failings and a genuine desire to work together. We could be churlish and throw it back in his face - to do such a thing would, in my judgement, be foolish in the extreme. As I have said repeatedly, we are not going to get what we want in total, but we are going to claw back some of the lost ground. I find myself agreeing with significant parts of AH's logic and am encouraged at his willingness to recognise his part in the breakdown in communication that has occurred. He knows that we simply have to work together and so, frankly, should we. We have a number of pressing issues, and I in no way want to underestimate how big these are.
I still do not understand why our crew costs are going up - it just makes no sense to me. Added to that the biggest problem we face is the staggering loss in fuel hedging. I am appalled at the treatment of our cabin crew and junior pilots on temporary contracts. These issues have to be addressed. Nonetheless, we should not in any way underestimate the pressures on our business and make this work. All I ask from our management is that they are reasonable - if they continue down a route of 'in-yer-face' attacks on all of our futures we will have a disaster. We nonetheless should embrace the conciliatory words of Andy Harrison and only consider strike action a last resort. Maybe at last he is seeing the value of working with us rather than against us - if he is then we need to encourage that at every opportunity.
To all those with a negative take on my position, you are all of course entitled to such views. I have made it quite clear that I would support BALPA unequivocally in any strike. Nonetheless, I strongly believe that a strike is in no one's interests and is definitely avoidable. As Leo so alarmingly points out, talk of strikes would be disastrous for forward bookings and this is not the way forward. All easyJet pilots will have received a very interesting personal e-mail from Andy Harrison today, and without divulging the details on a public forum we should give credit where credit is due. Can you imgaine Michael O'Leary ever sending such an e-mail to his pilots? I don't think so. I personally interpret this e-mail as an admission of past failings and a genuine desire to work together. We could be churlish and throw it back in his face - to do such a thing would, in my judgement, be foolish in the extreme. As I have said repeatedly, we are not going to get what we want in total, but we are going to claw back some of the lost ground. I find myself agreeing with significant parts of AH's logic and am encouraged at his willingness to recognise his part in the breakdown in communication that has occurred. He knows that we simply have to work together and so, frankly, should we. We have a number of pressing issues, and I in no way want to underestimate how big these are.
I still do not understand why our crew costs are going up - it just makes no sense to me. Added to that the biggest problem we face is the staggering loss in fuel hedging. I am appalled at the treatment of our cabin crew and junior pilots on temporary contracts. These issues have to be addressed. Nonetheless, we should not in any way underestimate the pressures on our business and make this work. All I ask from our management is that they are reasonable - if they continue down a route of 'in-yer-face' attacks on all of our futures we will have a disaster. We nonetheless should embrace the conciliatory words of Andy Harrison and only consider strike action a last resort. Maybe at last he is seeing the value of working with us rather than against us - if he is then we need to encourage that at every opportunity.
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I still do not understand why our crew costs are going up - it just makes no sense to me. Added to that the biggest problem we face is the staggering loss in fuel hedging. I am appalled at the treatment of our cabin crew and junior pilots on temporary contracts. These issues have to be addressed. Nonetheless, we should not in any way underestimate the pressures on our business and make this work. All I ask from our management is that they are reasonable - if they continue down a route of 'in-yer-face' attacks on all of our futures we will have a disaster.
Ask yourself, why should any manager treat current crews "reasonable" if they can hire the next self-funded type rating candidate to replace these expensive but 'reasonable' moaners and reward himself with a fat bonus on top of it all?
You can beat around the bush forever and try to stick your head in the sand with your moderate and kind words and actions, but nobody will automatically treat you reasonable in this world. You/we (i.e. the crews) have to fight for it.
Respect is earned, it's not automatically given by a nice management because they want to be reasonable.
Of course, now it's one minute to twelve to start earning respect, and in a recession this is next to impossible. That point of no return was passed a few years ago I'm afraid...
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It seems as if Norman is viewing the glass as half full which is always a commendable approach to take. However I get the feeling from other posts from easyJet crew that they are certainly viewing the glass as being half empty.
I feel that Doug made a nice concise post. He mentioned that respect has to be earned which is very true but I fail to see what the incentive is for management in any low cost airline to treat their crew with respect. The aspects of loyalty, job satisfaction and dedication seem to hold little interest with management nowadays. An old acquaintance of mine who gladly accepted a LHS on inferior Ts and Cs and the CTC Flexicrew 'farce' are great examples.
Is this potential threat of industrial action the first of more to come? As an outsider, it seems that this initial erosion of Ts and Cs is perhaps just the 'tip of the iceberg'.
I feel that Doug made a nice concise post. He mentioned that respect has to be earned which is very true but I fail to see what the incentive is for management in any low cost airline to treat their crew with respect. The aspects of loyalty, job satisfaction and dedication seem to hold little interest with management nowadays. An old acquaintance of mine who gladly accepted a LHS on inferior Ts and Cs and the CTC Flexicrew 'farce' are great examples.
Is this potential threat of industrial action the first of more to come? As an outsider, it seems that this initial erosion of Ts and Cs is perhaps just the 'tip of the iceberg'.
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Hi Doug. I am in the process of drafting a reply to AH and will send it shortly. I believe that he is now recognising that there is sound business sense in working with your employees rather than working against them. I am no more excited than you are about what has happened at easyJet in recent days. In no particular order there are several issues that we must address:
1. The disgraceful treatment of our CTC cadets by the company.
2. Temporary commands instead of the part-year 75/25 deal promised.
3. Return of permanent contracts.
4. The German Contract Issue.
5. Sector pay for ultra-long flights.
6. Crew food.
7. The disgraceful treatment of cabin crew and the misuse of temporary contracts.
8. The confrontational attitude of our Flight Ops Director.
9. The establishment of a clear end game. Where do the company actually want these cuts to lead? What would satisfy them?
10. Continual rostering abuses.
11. Training Captain contracts.
Nonetheless, as I listen to the more extreme views of some of our pilots, I see little to choose between them and our Flt Ops Director. We have to ask what we want. Do we want 'blood on the carpet' or 'heads on poles'? What is to be gained by that? I see the fresh shoots of a willingness to re-engage in credible and sensible discussion. That needs to be encouraged as it is vital the pilots are seen as people the company can deal with. As I have said on several occasions, I back our union 100%. If a strike comes I will back it, but that is very premature in view of the clear willingness of the company to take a step back from the brink. We need to open this small window of opportunity as wide as we can. Are we dealing with reasonable people? Probably not. But we are dealing with people who realise that we need to work together at last. BALPA have done a fantastic job in facing down the company - who are wisely reconsidering their position. We in turn would be wise to reconsider ours in response. There are a number of contributors on here who would only be happy if all the pilots were gathered outside Hangar 89 in donkey jackets, standing in freezing conditions over lit fires shouting abuse at office workers within. Is that where we really want to be? Victory for me is dialogue with our managers to find a way forward that brings success to easyJet, and a credible career path to the pilots and cabin crew that who make it run. Mister Geezer has alluded to there being no managment incentive to treat their crews with respect. That is absolutely not the case as has been seen here. What gives them incentive is a strong pilot union sitting across the table from them making it clear that if they continue to be dorks they will have a strike on their hands. The real skill, however, is turning that fighting position into concrete results that bring change. That is where we are at the moment, and only time will tell if we can achieve victories in the above-mentioned areas. I dare to believe we may yet do so.
1. The disgraceful treatment of our CTC cadets by the company.
2. Temporary commands instead of the part-year 75/25 deal promised.
3. Return of permanent contracts.
4. The German Contract Issue.
5. Sector pay for ultra-long flights.
6. Crew food.
7. The disgraceful treatment of cabin crew and the misuse of temporary contracts.
8. The confrontational attitude of our Flight Ops Director.
9. The establishment of a clear end game. Where do the company actually want these cuts to lead? What would satisfy them?
10. Continual rostering abuses.
11. Training Captain contracts.
Nonetheless, as I listen to the more extreme views of some of our pilots, I see little to choose between them and our Flt Ops Director. We have to ask what we want. Do we want 'blood on the carpet' or 'heads on poles'? What is to be gained by that? I see the fresh shoots of a willingness to re-engage in credible and sensible discussion. That needs to be encouraged as it is vital the pilots are seen as people the company can deal with. As I have said on several occasions, I back our union 100%. If a strike comes I will back it, but that is very premature in view of the clear willingness of the company to take a step back from the brink. We need to open this small window of opportunity as wide as we can. Are we dealing with reasonable people? Probably not. But we are dealing with people who realise that we need to work together at last. BALPA have done a fantastic job in facing down the company - who are wisely reconsidering their position. We in turn would be wise to reconsider ours in response. There are a number of contributors on here who would only be happy if all the pilots were gathered outside Hangar 89 in donkey jackets, standing in freezing conditions over lit fires shouting abuse at office workers within. Is that where we really want to be? Victory for me is dialogue with our managers to find a way forward that brings success to easyJet, and a credible career path to the pilots and cabin crew that who make it run. Mister Geezer has alluded to there being no managment incentive to treat their crews with respect. That is absolutely not the case as has been seen here. What gives them incentive is a strong pilot union sitting across the table from them making it clear that if they continue to be dorks they will have a strike on their hands. The real skill, however, is turning that fighting position into concrete results that bring change. That is where we are at the moment, and only time will tell if we can achieve victories in the above-mentioned areas. I dare to believe we may yet do so.
NSF -a thoughtful(as usual) and constructive post.However,it has to be said unfortunately that easyJet has never treated the pilots with much respect and we used to work in a parallel universe to ensure that the aircraft were operated correctly and professionally -which they were.It is amazing that only now the directors might feel that it is constructive to work with the employees and cynically I can only believe that share price/profit would be the motive.
NSF,
In point 4 in your email, can you stress the B scale. I believe that that is the beginning of the end, and will be applied to anyone who moves seat, or base (voluntary or otherwise) until it is the prevalent scale.
In point 4 in your email, can you stress the B scale. I believe that that is the beginning of the end, and will be applied to anyone who moves seat, or base (voluntary or otherwise) until it is the prevalent scale.
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Norman, good list. Can I make one addition to the list please:
12) FO loyalty bonus
A few people are realising that as the time to command lengthens it is going to become much more important! Investing in people and all that.........
12) FO loyalty bonus
A few people are realising that as the time to command lengthens it is going to become much more important! Investing in people and all that.........
NSF. You want dialogue and reasonable relations.
I am sorry to break this to you.
Your opponent is not interested...... He wants a deal that is as cheap as possible, in order to keep the wheels turning.
Its a fine list you have. I predict by may 2010, it will be longer, not shorter.
How long does it have to get, before you see the light and put your foot down ?
I am sorry to break this to you.
Your opponent is not interested...... He wants a deal that is as cheap as possible, in order to keep the wheels turning.
Its a fine list you have. I predict by may 2010, it will be longer, not shorter.
How long does it have to get, before you see the light and put your foot down ?
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The point is that we aren't really asking for anything "Extra' per se. Most people would be happy to be left alone to do their job, without having the terms and conditions that they signed up for continually assaulted. Stop this management obsession to drive our profession to the point where we are little more than cheap labour that turns up at gates each day hoping for a days work.
Stop the 'Ruinairisation' of the company and instead take a leaf out of the Southwest Airlines book of management. Go on management, be a rebel, buck the trend and treat people how you'd like to be treated youself and you may be pleasantly surprised at the results. It's not that hard for flips sake!
Stop the 'Ruinairisation' of the company and instead take a leaf out of the Southwest Airlines book of management. Go on management, be a rebel, buck the trend and treat people how you'd like to be treated youself and you may be pleasantly surprised at the results. It's not that hard for flips sake!
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Dear Norman,
Despite your, obviously, good intentions in writing a long winded email to Andy, but perhaps it's better to first have a cup of strong coffee to help you wake up.
Can't you see the "good cop, bad cop" game going on? Good ol' Andy speaking nice conciliatory words while his henchmen are cracking the whip.
This game has been going on long before you joined (Ray Webster anyone!?) and will continue long after you've retired unless people decide to grow a backbone and start earning some respect!
Sure, there's a time to be pragmatic and there's a time to be firm, but there's never a time to be naive and gullible...
p.s. speaking about broken promises, low moral and shattered dreams, make sure you copy in Ray when you email Andy! I'm sure he'll appreciate your comments...
Despite your, obviously, good intentions in writing a long winded email to Andy, but perhaps it's better to first have a cup of strong coffee to help you wake up.
Can't you see the "good cop, bad cop" game going on? Good ol' Andy speaking nice conciliatory words while his henchmen are cracking the whip.
This game has been going on long before you joined (Ray Webster anyone!?) and will continue long after you've retired unless people decide to grow a backbone and start earning some respect!
Sure, there's a time to be pragmatic and there's a time to be firm, but there's never a time to be naive and gullible...
p.s. speaking about broken promises, low moral and shattered dreams, make sure you copy in Ray when you email Andy! I'm sure he'll appreciate your comments...
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I thought that the fight at easyJet had been fought a couple of years ago when a strike was averted and Ts & Cs agreed.
easyJet are going to have to raise their game if they want to achieve the same standard of compliance from crews, with the attendant misery and resignation.
Fr have achieved great success by their 'divide and rule' tactics over the last few years, playing off Base against unprofitable Base, whilst pumping out the bollox that we are the best paid in Europe.
Now, we at FR are on the back foot, it has become easy for them to achieve a succession of pay cuts & freezes. Interestingly, even when we bent over and took it, and agreed cuts to pay etc in the 2009 deal, they still went ahead and had a freeze in the summer, which was the threat to make us compliant in this first place.
There will be no end to the erosion of Ts & Cs, and once agreed, deals can be broken and if you don't like it you can always sue them - Ho Ho
I hope easyJet don't go the appeasement path that we have chosen at FR.
easyJet are going to have to raise their game if they want to achieve the same standard of compliance from crews, with the attendant misery and resignation.
Fr have achieved great success by their 'divide and rule' tactics over the last few years, playing off Base against unprofitable Base, whilst pumping out the bollox that we are the best paid in Europe.
Now, we at FR are on the back foot, it has become easy for them to achieve a succession of pay cuts & freezes. Interestingly, even when we bent over and took it, and agreed cuts to pay etc in the 2009 deal, they still went ahead and had a freeze in the summer, which was the threat to make us compliant in this first place.
There will be no end to the erosion of Ts & Cs, and once agreed, deals can be broken and if you don't like it you can always sue them - Ho Ho
I hope easyJet don't go the appeasement path that we have chosen at FR.