Easy worse than Ryanair
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Think we may have lost our way some what. I don’t think the wannabees/cadets can be to blame for this. We have all been there at some point and there has to be means to enter the industry. I think it is very sad we have reached the stage where guys are expected to risk such large sums of money to even consider the job. Getting side tracked vilifying CTCCadet for an admittedly not well worded point but essentially a good observation is not the way forward either. We do need to ensure we have a desirable career and I probably would have gone in to medicine had I not ended up in flying many years ago!!
I think that rather than blaming everyone else we have to take responsibility as a pilot body. I for one have been guilty of complacency looking across to FR and considering pilots only having themselves to blame for accepting the conditions.
However with this now happening at easyjet the wolf is probably through the door and not far from all airlines as the standard. Once this happens I fear there will no turning back as all conditions crumble away.
This should now be a major issue for BALPA to deal with and not just the EZY CC but completely across the board. By allowing this to stand at EZY we are asking for trouble. Rather than squabbling over blame we should be standing together, increasing the awareness and doing all we can to prevent it happening. If BALPA can’t prevent the airlines going down this route through negotiations with the management is it not time BALPA were lobbying for legislation? Surely protecting each others terms is the main reason for a union?
I think that rather than blaming everyone else we have to take responsibility as a pilot body. I for one have been guilty of complacency looking across to FR and considering pilots only having themselves to blame for accepting the conditions.
However with this now happening at easyjet the wolf is probably through the door and not far from all airlines as the standard. Once this happens I fear there will no turning back as all conditions crumble away.
This should now be a major issue for BALPA to deal with and not just the EZY CC but completely across the board. By allowing this to stand at EZY we are asking for trouble. Rather than squabbling over blame we should be standing together, increasing the awareness and doing all we can to prevent it happening. If BALPA can’t prevent the airlines going down this route through negotiations with the management is it not time BALPA were lobbying for legislation? Surely protecting each others terms is the main reason for a union?
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These schemes facilitate attracting people away from other top careers like medicine and law and in to flying, hence aiding the industry standards
However it also attracted a lot of people who really didn't have more than a passing interest. Would never have considered flying if it would cost them anything, and who are only interested in pushing buttons on a shiny jet.
Many people describe medicine as a vocation, a view I agree with. Anyone who genuinely wants to be a medic, shows the necessary commitment and more importantly makes the grade wouldn't turn down this career for flying. As anyone with all the above qualities but related to aviation wouldn't have to think twice.
Without them other method of recruitment would be unable to cope with the demand
Unfortunately your attitude and apparent jealousy
Harsh comments maybe but you need a reality check after posting such drivel.
But hey if you are the 'top people' that CTC have managed to tempt away from governing the Bank of England or performing brain surgery maybe it's time to leave the UK.
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I think this thread demonstrates perfectly my fear that we are all f***ed!
CTCcadet was basically saying that flexicrew/brookfield are reducing the T&C's in the industry. The T&C's are now terrible for new starters. As they reduce they will drag down the T&C's for the rest of us. It is happening.
While trying to say this because he/she mentioned law/medicine people took their eye of the ball and turned on him. In fighting started. Bitching. Posturing. I am ok I have a job its your fault. Its not my fault its the system. ETC ETC ETC.
I am not having a go (I am just as guilty of this) but it is what seems to happen. While we argue and bitch the T&C's slide further. Management sit laying plans of total career destruction. We are in the meantime outside in the playground still trying to decide what to do and don't notice the ball we were supposed to be watching has rolled into the middle of the M25!
I fear that by the time everyone realises what is happening and that it WILL affect them it will be too late.
There are just too many battles to be fought and I really doubt now we will win enough of them to make a difference.
0856......is it too early for a large brandy??
CTCcadet was basically saying that flexicrew/brookfield are reducing the T&C's in the industry. The T&C's are now terrible for new starters. As they reduce they will drag down the T&C's for the rest of us. It is happening.
While trying to say this because he/she mentioned law/medicine people took their eye of the ball and turned on him. In fighting started. Bitching. Posturing. I am ok I have a job its your fault. Its not my fault its the system. ETC ETC ETC.
I am not having a go (I am just as guilty of this) but it is what seems to happen. While we argue and bitch the T&C's slide further. Management sit laying plans of total career destruction. We are in the meantime outside in the playground still trying to decide what to do and don't notice the ball we were supposed to be watching has rolled into the middle of the M25!
I fear that by the time everyone realises what is happening and that it WILL affect them it will be too late.
There are just too many battles to be fought and I really doubt now we will win enough of them to make a difference.
0856......is it too early for a large brandy??
The laws of cost control and supply and demand are such that this issue isn't going away in a hurry.
Probably the only arguement that stacks against mass sourcing from CTC and other such providers is safety.
I'm not taking a pip against individuals here; the schools turn out an excellent product. As a 10 year skipper with easy I've seen standards slowly drift as the airline sources the least experienced applicants from the cheapest sources. No, I'm not saying these guys aren't up to the job and there shouldn't be any of them, but a sensible recruitment program would see a mix of experience and backgrounds.
I'll put my hand up now and say I've made a couple of bold decisions over my flying career that a seasoned F/O would have challenged and quite rightly denied me. CTC cadet just doesn't have the grounding to see trouble in the making.
Curiously, all this is contradicted in the safety statistics. But remember, Easyjet like many operators now has a comprehensive FDM system that provides a rigid set of compliance gates that can make poor airmanship or bad decision making look like a perfectly regular flight. Also remember the equipment has changed; it's comfy seat, push button, meal off a table, always an easy day out really. Like driving a bus- or is it?
Probably the only arguement that stacks against mass sourcing from CTC and other such providers is safety.
I'm not taking a pip against individuals here; the schools turn out an excellent product. As a 10 year skipper with easy I've seen standards slowly drift as the airline sources the least experienced applicants from the cheapest sources. No, I'm not saying these guys aren't up to the job and there shouldn't be any of them, but a sensible recruitment program would see a mix of experience and backgrounds.
I'll put my hand up now and say I've made a couple of bold decisions over my flying career that a seasoned F/O would have challenged and quite rightly denied me. CTC cadet just doesn't have the grounding to see trouble in the making.
Curiously, all this is contradicted in the safety statistics. But remember, Easyjet like many operators now has a comprehensive FDM system that provides a rigid set of compliance gates that can make poor airmanship or bad decision making look like a perfectly regular flight. Also remember the equipment has changed; it's comfy seat, push button, meal off a table, always an easy day out really. Like driving a bus- or is it?
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meal off a table
Like driving a bus- or is it?
Really? 95% of the times maybe, but the 5% still makes the difference..
Try an approach in SUF with marginal wx and we the wonderful help you get from the local ATC for example (just a cat b aerodrome).
And that's without even mentioning when the sh*t really hits the fan..
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Trouble is, Doggy, that with the sort of super-rigid SOPs that have turned a skilled job involving judgement and experience into an unvariable scripted and choreographed ballet there is no room for airmanship any more.
Think about it - when was the last time you heard that word? Not for some time, I'd guess. Years probably. That is scary. Very scary. What chance do the cadets have of gainng any when its been scripted out of the job?
=====================================================
BALPA had better do a proper job over the nastiness that is coming, because if there is a strike, and I don't see how one can be avoided with the attitudes prevailing at present, it had better be won. My fear is that all the rhetoric and promises to strike will evaporate when push comes to shove, and a few brave, principled souls will find themselves deserted on the picket lines as the majority of their "colleagues" decide that discretion is the better part and craven out. The rancour and divisions that this would cause will be the end of any cohesion the pilots had left and will destroy for ever trust between the pilots (I've seen it before- it is a horrible thing to have in a company), and perhaps more seriously, trust in BALPA. This, I fear, is a scenario that some people are praying for, and working hard to achieve.
If a strike is broken in the full glare of the media's gleeful and extensive publicity it will so damage BALPA's reputation that it will not survive as a useful tool outside BA ever again, and perhaps not even there. I think a broken strike would be the end of BALPA as a credible force in the industry as a whole. The thought of our aviation industry without any protection at all from the rogues and thieves that run it these days is a dreadful prospect, and will quite simply signal the end of flying as a viable career choice. Look at the way dock workers were employed seventy years ago - hanging around the gates every morning in a mob waiting to catch the eye of the overseer who would hire individuals - the ones he liked (or whose bribes he liked...) for a day, a couple of days, or even - joy of joys - a whole week! The rest went home at 0830 unpaid and hungry. No sick pay. No pension. No holiday entitlement. No loss of licence, no nothing.
And all this coming from such a fanatically "politically correct" organisation. The hypocricy is simply staggering.
This isn't being melodramatic - this is where we are heading. Do not doubt it for a moment.
Think about it - when was the last time you heard that word? Not for some time, I'd guess. Years probably. That is scary. Very scary. What chance do the cadets have of gainng any when its been scripted out of the job?
=====================================================
BALPA had better do a proper job over the nastiness that is coming, because if there is a strike, and I don't see how one can be avoided with the attitudes prevailing at present, it had better be won. My fear is that all the rhetoric and promises to strike will evaporate when push comes to shove, and a few brave, principled souls will find themselves deserted on the picket lines as the majority of their "colleagues" decide that discretion is the better part and craven out. The rancour and divisions that this would cause will be the end of any cohesion the pilots had left and will destroy for ever trust between the pilots (I've seen it before- it is a horrible thing to have in a company), and perhaps more seriously, trust in BALPA. This, I fear, is a scenario that some people are praying for, and working hard to achieve.
If a strike is broken in the full glare of the media's gleeful and extensive publicity it will so damage BALPA's reputation that it will not survive as a useful tool outside BA ever again, and perhaps not even there. I think a broken strike would be the end of BALPA as a credible force in the industry as a whole. The thought of our aviation industry without any protection at all from the rogues and thieves that run it these days is a dreadful prospect, and will quite simply signal the end of flying as a viable career choice. Look at the way dock workers were employed seventy years ago - hanging around the gates every morning in a mob waiting to catch the eye of the overseer who would hire individuals - the ones he liked (or whose bribes he liked...) for a day, a couple of days, or even - joy of joys - a whole week! The rest went home at 0830 unpaid and hungry. No sick pay. No pension. No holiday entitlement. No loss of licence, no nothing.
And all this coming from such a fanatically "politically correct" organisation. The hypocricy is simply staggering.
This isn't being melodramatic - this is where we are heading. Do not doubt it for a moment.
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There was a time when insurance companies insisted on a minimum number of flying hours before a pilot could be employed by an airline (I seem to remember that it was 1,000 hrs for the first airline I flew for which is why I had to 'hours build' before I got my first job).
Just imagine if insurance companies insisted on that requirement now? End of 200 hr cadet entry to the airlines.
Heaven forbid, but if there ever was an incident/accident maybe they would insist on this requirement in future?
One or two airlines would have to seriously re-think their strategy in that event.
KR
FOK
Just imagine if insurance companies insisted on that requirement now? End of 200 hr cadet entry to the airlines.
Heaven forbid, but if there ever was an incident/accident maybe they would insist on this requirement in future?
One or two airlines would have to seriously re-think their strategy in that event.
KR
FOK
Risk management is apparently a bit more sophisticated than "1000 hrs experience" these days.
Insurance companies allegedly want to see your stabilised app. statistics, and want insight in all areas of your risk management as such. "How many level busts did you have last month, what are you doing about it ?" etc.
They make things quantifiable. Even this is turning into a beancounter's paradise
With an app. like that, the amount of experience in the flt. deck, is looked at as a secondary safety indicator.
Insurance companies allegedly want to see your stabilised app. statistics, and want insight in all areas of your risk management as such. "How many level busts did you have last month, what are you doing about it ?" etc.
They make things quantifiable. Even this is turning into a beancounter's paradise
With an app. like that, the amount of experience in the flt. deck, is looked at as a secondary safety indicator.
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I remember the times when you had to build your hours before getting your first big job. I went to the States to do that, also worked for very small companies so I would get my 1000hrs before I got to a mediu airline.
Today its opposite. They take you with the minimum amount of hours whilst you are still hungry for a job, whilst you do ANYTHING to get the job. Whislt you are young too, you dont care too much about anything.
Now, being much older and with perspective in life- its very very different. You dont take anything anymore because there is so much else in life than this crap LCC standards. And the LCC airlines uses young and inexperienced people to take the jobs no-one did even 5 years ago. On crap salaries and conditions.
Safety is already far behind, not only because of all inexperienced crew, but because people are constantly fatigued and not to forget to mention. frustrated and pi*sed off at management!
So whats next?
Today its opposite. They take you with the minimum amount of hours whilst you are still hungry for a job, whilst you do ANYTHING to get the job. Whislt you are young too, you dont care too much about anything.
Now, being much older and with perspective in life- its very very different. You dont take anything anymore because there is so much else in life than this crap LCC standards. And the LCC airlines uses young and inexperienced people to take the jobs no-one did even 5 years ago. On crap salaries and conditions.
Safety is already far behind, not only because of all inexperienced crew, but because people are constantly fatigued and not to forget to mention. frustrated and pi*sed off at management!
So whats next?
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I take your point regarding the more sophisticated manner in which risk is assessed these days.
I remember when a number of high houred (20,000 hrs plus) experienced captains left my first airline the average hours per pilot plummeted. The insurance company was concerned.
I wonder how the demographics will work out for the low cost airlines when they consistently take on low houred pilots?
The Cadets of today are probably flying with relatively high houred captains still.
If this trend continues these same Cadets will become (relatively) low houred captains of tomorrow (say with 5,000 hrs) flying with 200 hr Cadets. So the total experience in the flight deck will be much reduced.
How will risk be assessed then?
The insurance companies must, to some extent, take into account the average age and experience of the pilots in any particular airline - or maybe the direct effect will be more 'incidents' of the type mentioned above due to this relative inexperience?
I suppose only time will tell - these are uncharted waters after all.
KR
FOK
I remember when a number of high houred (20,000 hrs plus) experienced captains left my first airline the average hours per pilot plummeted. The insurance company was concerned.
I wonder how the demographics will work out for the low cost airlines when they consistently take on low houred pilots?
The Cadets of today are probably flying with relatively high houred captains still.
If this trend continues these same Cadets will become (relatively) low houred captains of tomorrow (say with 5,000 hrs) flying with 200 hr Cadets. So the total experience in the flight deck will be much reduced.
How will risk be assessed then?
The insurance companies must, to some extent, take into account the average age and experience of the pilots in any particular airline - or maybe the direct effect will be more 'incidents' of the type mentioned above due to this relative inexperience?
I suppose only time will tell - these are uncharted waters after all.
KR
FOK
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Silver knapper,
I know two doctors who gave up medicine to fly professionally. I know two lawyers who gave up law to fly professionally. I've come across quite a few accountancy-trained pilots and quite a few ex-managers of this or that but I don't know any ex-dentist pilots. Will that do?
AB,
The skill of an airline pilot still does involve judgement and experience- great dollops of it. SOPs are a guide, quite a firm guide I grant you, and they are principally to allow a wide variety of pilots who don't know each other from Adam to get into a flight deck and operate together with no fuss and few questions. Captains can always disregard SOPs provided they have a sound and pressing reason for doing so (the safe conduct of the flight?) and the law is so framed that a captain may disregard any law or procedure whatsoever in order to secure the safety of his aircraft. That is where judgement and experience come in. Airmanship is a word I use every day in my role as a TRE and I can assure you that the CAA don't consider that it has gone out of fashion.
Anyone who genuinely wants to be a medic, shows the necessary commitment and more importantly makes the grade wouldn't turn down this career for flying.
AB,
Trouble is, Doggy, that with the sort of super-rigid SOPs that have turned a skilled job involving judgement and experience into an unvariable scripted and choreographed ballet there is no room for airmanship any more.
Think about it - when was the last time you heard that word? Not for some time, I'd guess. Years probably. That is scary. Very scary. What chance do the cadets have of gainng any when its been scripted out of the job?
Think about it - when was the last time you heard that word? Not for some time, I'd guess. Years probably. That is scary. Very scary. What chance do the cadets have of gainng any when its been scripted out of the job?
Last edited by Wingswinger; 25th Nov 2009 at 15:58.
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but I don't know any ex-dentist pilots
Don't know any heart surgeons who used to be Pilots though...hmmm
But hey I work for Ryanair and even though I didn't have to pay for my TR it's clearly all my fault.
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Sorry, Wingswinger, but I haven´t seen airmanship for a long time! The slightest deviation from "BATO" (But All The Others..) procedures - even inside the SOPs require long and tireing discussions with the gentlemen who wants to sit in my seat. 15 minutes of discussion to persuade a guy that an a/c on takeoff is legal for example. Eng out SID into a Cb. The list is endless!
And before the pc brigade steps in: there was never ever this kind of problems with a female F/O.
And before the pc brigade steps in: there was never ever this kind of problems with a female F/O.
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An airline (for this example, Ryanair, but could be any) rings up an applicant and offers them a place on a TR course, paid for by said applicant.
The applicant declines.
No problem, Ryanair ring the next applicant on the list. They accept. And so on.
However, imagine applicant number 2 declines. And applicant number 3. And 4. And 5. Etc Etc.
I have been led to believe this industry is very reactionary in its recruitment, and that when pilots are needed they are needed fast. How many people have to say no before Ryanair start paying for TR's? Or perhaps extending contracts. Oh, but wait, other airlines are experiencing similar reactions and therefore they are offering permanent contracts or better terms, so Ryanair has to follow suit.
Are they able to survive for 6 months/a year/ 2 years without new applicants? Or would they be struggling after a couple of weeks? Would the situation change remarkably quickly?
It would seem that the whole industry could be saved by a few no's perhaps? But how could everyone be persuaded to say no. Should be some sort of 'union' for that.
The applicant declines.
No problem, Ryanair ring the next applicant on the list. They accept. And so on.
However, imagine applicant number 2 declines. And applicant number 3. And 4. And 5. Etc Etc.
I have been led to believe this industry is very reactionary in its recruitment, and that when pilots are needed they are needed fast. How many people have to say no before Ryanair start paying for TR's? Or perhaps extending contracts. Oh, but wait, other airlines are experiencing similar reactions and therefore they are offering permanent contracts or better terms, so Ryanair has to follow suit.
Are they able to survive for 6 months/a year/ 2 years without new applicants? Or would they be struggling after a couple of weeks? Would the situation change remarkably quickly?
It would seem that the whole industry could be saved by a few no's perhaps? But how could everyone be persuaded to say no. Should be some sort of 'union' for that.
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A slight aside - why is a doctor's renumeration so high in comaprison to ours? This is my own view, but perhaps it is because the BMC sets the standards that doctors must meet to get the job - i.e. sets them deliberately high so it restricts the rate of supply. This then allows room for doctors to say they are worth a higher pay package. Not to demean the job but handing out prescriptions and looking at moles and referring to guidance on the computer does not seem like it needs a £100k average salary.
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mental debt levels
On the point of cost, was chatting to a TR student at FR who stated that the fATPL had left them with £98k of debt and they were now embarking on the FR TR for 33k euros - seriously scary levels of debt considering that once they are all signed off to fly the line (assuming they get through) as a brookfield contractor, on their 9 day week (5 on 4 off) theyll be lucky to get 2-3 days flying.
There must surely be a cut off point where the overwhelming levels of debt become un-survivable?
I reckon if you survive this industry, you might just about get rid of your debts in your late 50's !!
Scary thought
DDA
There must surely be a cut off point where the overwhelming levels of debt become un-survivable?
I reckon if you survive this industry, you might just about get rid of your debts in your late 50's !!
Scary thought
DDA
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If that is an accurate figure for the kind of debt a 'newbie' might find themselves in if they haven't been lucky enough to have parents help them out, and if salaries are 'so' low as mentioned with FR and Ezy, surely it is a cut and dry case...FO's cant physically live and service their debts on such a salary?!?
Question is, how and what are people in this situation doing?
Question is, how and what are people in this situation doing?
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Doctors' remuneration (apart form the few in private practice) did not hit it's current heights until one G.Brown esq. started to throw our tax money at them in the belief that he was improving the public services. Prior to that they were generally on a par with pilots. Some GPs, it is reported, earn in excess of £250k pa.
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DDA, Once said cadet is on line they will soon be averaging an easy 5000 Euro per month. They will not pay any tax until they have reclaimed all of the costs of training, accomodation etc. Shouldn't take too long to be in the clear and they can still look forward to a quick command.