Wizzair
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Bealzebub - I still stand by both statements: as a new joiner in HKG it's no longer a viable/liveable option. And do you know why - because of the likes of Wizz et al causing airlines worldwide to join the race to the bottom regarding Ts and Cs. Thanks guys, that's because of you accepting these terms.
Eventually it will effect me, but in the meantime I'm still a 'B' scaler and last months pay check was 160,100 HKD, or 14,964 euros. (this includes 7,010 euros housing allowances which pays off the mortgage on my flat, thank you very much) So the other 8000 euros was pure salary.
Syntax Error - your friend is probably a freighter captain, in which case I do earn more than him, another example of lowering Ts and Cs. Or when he told you his salary he didn't include the housing allowance, which I did.
No humble pie or carrot cake for me thanks.
Eventually it will effect me, but in the meantime I'm still a 'B' scaler and last months pay check was 160,100 HKD, or 14,964 euros. (this includes 7,010 euros housing allowances which pays off the mortgage on my flat, thank you very much) So the other 8000 euros was pure salary.
Syntax Error - your friend is probably a freighter captain, in which case I do earn more than him, another example of lowering Ts and Cs. Or when he told you his salary he didn't include the housing allowance, which I did.
No humble pie or carrot cake for me thanks.
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oh dear....syntax error is back from his holidays.
'you got to improve you math skills, seriously!' syntax, plus your business acumen. You forget to mention that as well as the 2 guys flying the plane, there are also the guys on sby, plus the guys on AVBL, plus the guys on holiday. Wizz are pretty unique in the Low Cost sector in that they pay a basic salary, unlike Ryanair and Easyjet's flexicrew.
And yes, I know the salary isn't great, but you've yet to walk away from the 'third world salaries', have you? Hardly a man of principle...
'you got to improve you math skills, seriously!' syntax, plus your business acumen. You forget to mention that as well as the 2 guys flying the plane, there are also the guys on sby, plus the guys on AVBL, plus the guys on holiday. Wizz are pretty unique in the Low Cost sector in that they pay a basic salary, unlike Ryanair and Easyjet's flexicrew.
And yes, I know the salary isn't great, but you've yet to walk away from the 'third world salaries', have you? Hardly a man of principle...
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The nature of the beast!
They don't need to pay any more. These are the market rates. The supply of labour far, far, exceeds the demand! The entire conceptual basis of low cost is just what it says on the tin. Apart from cartel costs (fuel) and regulatory costs, everything else is necessarily pared to the bone as an input cost. Aircraft acquisition, airport charges, catering, maintenance, ground handling, administration, and most certainly labour! Anybody who thought otherwise was living in a fools paradise. A decade and more on from inception, anybody who still thinks otherwise is simply delusional!
Even the legacy carriers, and particularly those operating from some of the most crowded and high cost real estate on the planet, have sought to pare down their own input costs to a level that still allows them to operate. You only have to look for such phrases as "B scale" and "C scale" etc. to see ample evidence of that.
Go over to the wannabes forums, and you will find thousands of "low hour" basic licence holders who would give their eye teeth for one of these "opportunities." It never fails to amaze me how many people seem to labour under the illusion that once they have secured such a job, their basic levels of experience are somehow going to be overvalued, and given a status that might have existed 30 years ago.
There are good legacy opportunities around the world, but often those opportunities come with their own baggage. Living in a desert (even a desert with nice shopping malls,) or a tiny apartment in a very crowded, hot and humid island, is sometimes a high price to pay for that type of opportunity. The wages and T&C's on offer, often reflect the reality of living costs in those parts of the world, and even then, the positions themselves come with the constant realisation that you are a "guest" in those labour markets.
Many of these "lo-cost" operations do have relatively poor terms and conditions attached. They have become the modern day stepping stones for those seeking their first rung on the professional ladder. It is ignorant and unhelpful to call aspirants to these jobs derisory names. That is particularly true when you do so from an experienced perch that comes with its own set of downsides, even if the headline salary does fill you with a sense of your own superiority.
For those who haven't researched the nature of the beast they have chosen to ride, then they have not been very wise, because all of the information is in the public domain. If you choose to ride, be prepared for the reality of what you are taking on, because you will not change the nature of the beast. My answer to those who bemoan the T&C's of these companies, and complain of poor pay and long hours, is "dry your eyes Princess," many of them do not want your loyalty (they have no seniority.) Their terms and conditions reflect the reality of the market conditions of where they operate. You are climbing a slippery slope and there are no safety nets. Use these opportunities wisely to get where you want to be, or more precisely where you think you want to be.
Even the legacy carriers, and particularly those operating from some of the most crowded and high cost real estate on the planet, have sought to pare down their own input costs to a level that still allows them to operate. You only have to look for such phrases as "B scale" and "C scale" etc. to see ample evidence of that.
Go over to the wannabes forums, and you will find thousands of "low hour" basic licence holders who would give their eye teeth for one of these "opportunities." It never fails to amaze me how many people seem to labour under the illusion that once they have secured such a job, their basic levels of experience are somehow going to be overvalued, and given a status that might have existed 30 years ago.
There are good legacy opportunities around the world, but often those opportunities come with their own baggage. Living in a desert (even a desert with nice shopping malls,) or a tiny apartment in a very crowded, hot and humid island, is sometimes a high price to pay for that type of opportunity. The wages and T&C's on offer, often reflect the reality of living costs in those parts of the world, and even then, the positions themselves come with the constant realisation that you are a "guest" in those labour markets.
Many of these "lo-cost" operations do have relatively poor terms and conditions attached. They have become the modern day stepping stones for those seeking their first rung on the professional ladder. It is ignorant and unhelpful to call aspirants to these jobs derisory names. That is particularly true when you do so from an experienced perch that comes with its own set of downsides, even if the headline salary does fill you with a sense of your own superiority.
For those who haven't researched the nature of the beast they have chosen to ride, then they have not been very wise, because all of the information is in the public domain. If you choose to ride, be prepared for the reality of what you are taking on, because you will not change the nature of the beast. My answer to those who bemoan the T&C's of these companies, and complain of poor pay and long hours, is "dry your eyes Princess," many of them do not want your loyalty (they have no seniority.) Their terms and conditions reflect the reality of the market conditions of where they operate. You are climbing a slippery slope and there are no safety nets. Use these opportunities wisely to get where you want to be, or more precisely where you think you want to be.
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Wizz
Adding to the list. Wizz expects you to do all online training on your days off. Company training such as winter ops, aircraft recurrent, DG and other similar material. No duty time is credited, nor is th day rostered as training day. Well how could it be rostered, you are on an OFF day.
It's interesting how the Hungarian and other CAA's in Europe accepted the way Wizz conducts the training or they just do not know. The definition of duty is: "Any task that a crew member is required to carry out associated with the business of an AOC holder". Clearly mandatory training falls into that category.
Since Wizz salary is based mostly on a poor basic and additives in the form of sector pay, my belief is that most pilots accept these training tasks on their off days purely for the want of better pay. If this type of training was on the roster, it would mean less sectors and less money. As it takes anywhere from 8 to 10 days per year to complete online training you are looking at dropping anywhere between 30-40 sectors. In pure cash terms this is can be as much as 2500 eur. With the level of pay in Wizz, this is a lot of money.
This was the case a few years back when I took a better job. I don't believe it's changed, however I prepare to be corrected.
It's interesting how the Hungarian and other CAA's in Europe accepted the way Wizz conducts the training or they just do not know. The definition of duty is: "Any task that a crew member is required to carry out associated with the business of an AOC holder". Clearly mandatory training falls into that category.
Since Wizz salary is based mostly on a poor basic and additives in the form of sector pay, my belief is that most pilots accept these training tasks on their off days purely for the want of better pay. If this type of training was on the roster, it would mean less sectors and less money. As it takes anywhere from 8 to 10 days per year to complete online training you are looking at dropping anywhere between 30-40 sectors. In pure cash terms this is can be as much as 2500 eur. With the level of pay in Wizz, this is a lot of money.
This was the case a few years back when I took a better job. I don't believe it's changed, however I prepare to be corrected.
Last edited by wizzkid; 29th Oct 2013 at 04:29.
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Sigh. I dont know what you people are even on about and I work for this company. Yes the money is bad, no nobody is forcing you to work there. And no, I have never conducted my trainings on an OFF day and yes they were always rostered.
Do we work for different firms by any chance? Instead of complaining on here Syntax, it might be an idea to actually e-mail your director of flight operations or fleet captain and raise the issues, no? That should generally be more effective.
I'm not saying that our salaries don't warrant dissatisfaction or something, but as far as I see there are two options; either realistically try to make things better, or leave. Because, at the end of the day, you get exactly what you sign up for in WZZ. It might not be pretty, but they are hardly screwing you over.
Do we work for different firms by any chance? Instead of complaining on here Syntax, it might be an idea to actually e-mail your director of flight operations or fleet captain and raise the issues, no? That should generally be more effective.
I'm not saying that our salaries don't warrant dissatisfaction or something, but as far as I see there are two options; either realistically try to make things better, or leave. Because, at the end of the day, you get exactly what you sign up for in WZZ. It might not be pretty, but they are hardly screwing you over.
Last edited by drfaust; 29th Oct 2013 at 08:02.
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Wizz air interview.
Hi guys, I have a confirmed interview coming up with wizz air first interview since I was let go from astreaus so very important, I would greatly appreciate for someone to either post here or PM me who has gone through the interview process already, I would really appreciate and will share my experience with others after I go through, thanks.
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syntax - my point I was making is that your overhead costings per flight were excluding the basic salaries of the crew on sby, abl, holiday etc and didn't tell the whole story.
You seemed to forget that the wizz crew get paid a basic salary and sector pay is in addition.
For example, when you call sick and go on holiday then someone has to fly your sector at the last moment...! But you'll still be paid your Latvian Lats each month.
The process to have the online training rostered is very simple: send an email and request it. One day is more than enough for the security program. Noone Ive spoken to the right of me has complained.
are you really an 'error' ? or perhaps we should ask "who's error?"
ps Some sincere advice - you may have guessed that some of us know who and where you're based, you're getting a reputation for yourself within the company across numerous bases. It's obvious that you don't like working for Wizz so good luck with the job hunt. I actually do hope you find an employer that offers what you want.
You seemed to forget that the wizz crew get paid a basic salary and sector pay is in addition.
For example, when you call sick and go on holiday then someone has to fly your sector at the last moment...! But you'll still be paid your Latvian Lats each month.
The process to have the online training rostered is very simple: send an email and request it. One day is more than enough for the security program. Noone Ive spoken to the right of me has complained.
are you really an 'error' ? or perhaps we should ask "who's error?"
ps Some sincere advice - you may have guessed that some of us know who and where you're based, you're getting a reputation for yourself within the company across numerous bases. It's obvious that you don't like working for Wizz so good luck with the job hunt. I actually do hope you find an employer that offers what you want.
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@Syntax
If the airline (actually, any airline) rosters you a day for training, you will either:
- lose a day OFF, or
- lose a day flying
Is it really so hard to understand?!
If the airline (actually, any airline) rosters you a day for training, you will either:
- lose a day OFF, or
- lose a day flying
Is it really so hard to understand?!
Last edited by Stuck_in_an_ATR; 29th Oct 2013 at 10:59.
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I do have to say that I disagree with your final statement there george. I don't agree with syntax, precisely because I feel that if you are a first officer on an A320 you should behave like one. That means read your contract, understand what it is and make a decision.
Don't choose something and then in retrospect blame the company on the internet for giving you exactly what they promised to give you. (regardless whether I agree or not if our salaries are adequate for the work we do)
However, I completely do not subscribe to the notion that someone now has a 'bad reputation' for voicing their opinion, even publicly, about our levels of remuneration. We do not live in cold-war socialist times. The man has an opinion and is free to voice it, within the constraints of the law. As long as what he is saying remins truthful and not slanderous, I do not see a single issue with him voicing his opinion on whatever is going on.
If somehow that would affect his career in this company in a negative way or his relationship with his colleagues, I would honestly find that very sad. I also know who he is, but I do not pretend to know him nor do I find it relevant for this discussion.
But that's just my two cents worth. ;-)
Don't choose something and then in retrospect blame the company on the internet for giving you exactly what they promised to give you. (regardless whether I agree or not if our salaries are adequate for the work we do)
However, I completely do not subscribe to the notion that someone now has a 'bad reputation' for voicing their opinion, even publicly, about our levels of remuneration. We do not live in cold-war socialist times. The man has an opinion and is free to voice it, within the constraints of the law. As long as what he is saying remins truthful and not slanderous, I do not see a single issue with him voicing his opinion on whatever is going on.
If somehow that would affect his career in this company in a negative way or his relationship with his colleagues, I would honestly find that very sad. I also know who he is, but I do not pretend to know him nor do I find it relevant for this discussion.
But that's just my two cents worth. ;-)
Last edited by drfaust; 29th Oct 2013 at 11:23.
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Syntax, I am affraid you might have been misinterpreting certain privileges we have been receiving in the past as rights promised to you by contract.
So before I delve into this, I would like you to know that theoretically I can sympathise with your position because any regression of working conditions is not something that I personally view positively. However, I am affraid that many of the things that you mention, if not all, were things that were in fact not promised to you in the contract itself. My contract has never mentioned a 6/4 rostering system, nor does my contract mention any rights for stafftravel or concessionary travel for friends and family. It just doesn't, so as things stand it's a privilege I am getting from my employer which they contractually are not obliged to provide me. Now whether that is right, wrong or fair is is a completely different discussion, but things are as they are at the moment.
Furthermore, you are discussing a service provider contract. That means you are legally not even a direct WZZ employee but subcontracted through one of the agencies. So if we discuss the morality of the situation; I am receiving on my local polish contract, in gross and more or less, the same salary you are receiving. From this, I have to pay my social contributions and taxes just as much as you do. So from which argumentation can you argue that you should receive that 8% and I should not? Of course, if it should have gone any direction I am of the opinion that we all should have received 8% more, but it is difficult for me to understand a reasoning where one group who is not even employed by the airline would receive a higher gross salary than the group that actually has direct contracts locally. To me, that just does not make sense. Especially if you have a choice to choose a local contract, but for tax reasons many expats choose differently.
Furthermore, all the things that were adjusted were adjusted for contract pilots because this firm wants to focus more on local employees. That means that if they want the flexibility of unpaid leave, they will try to incorporate it in any new contractor contract. The strategy and the reasoning behind it is pretty obvious when we discuss the seasonality of the operation and the flexibility they want to have in BUD. Whether this should be allowed or not is a completely different matter and something that I do not necessarily endorse. However, the nature of the EU and the lack of regulation in this regard is the exact reason RYR can operate the way they do and consequently WZZ is operating the way they do. If something may be morally questionable, it does not make it illegal. The reasoning being that you don't have to sign that new captain upgrade contract ... (!).
I am not exactly endorsing any of this, but I am affraid to say that I am getting exactly what is in my contract. Whether it is morally right or wrong or anything, I do not see as relevant. The EU allows these practises and we as a a piloting profession have failed to address these issues properly through the likes of the ECA or other bodies on a regulatory level. The RPG are now starting to make a stand, but it will be alot of water under the bridge before anything gets done. So before you take me as a WZZ apologist remember that I am not, there are plenty of things in this company that could be better and my personal experience with our flight operationss management is that, within their constraints, they try to do what they can. But stop listing me all the things you don't agree with, I may very well agree with you that I would like to see these things improved, however in this particular debate it is not the point.
The point is that it is too late for us to complain now after we have fully read and agreed to sign these contracts. That's the way I view this situation, and trust me I need all the dosh I can get. However, this is a true capitalist situation which does give the employer alot of power. So before we all make our case at the EP through ECA etc. to get laws changed and incorporate some protection for ourselves, it is a losing battle. This is something that the RPG fully understands and that is why they are battling a difficult battle via the ECA to get things done. It is my prediction that if anything is to change on a regulatory level, it will be due to them. But who am I, but a lowly first officer.
Your claim that these contracts are getting changed by no consultation and through one way communication ofcourse is false. A contract cannot legally be changed without your permission and signature. By signing you agree just as much as they do to these new conditions. For the almost two years that I have been here my conditions are still exactly the same, as I did not change my contract or agree to any modification nor did anyone try to impose any on me.
So before I delve into this, I would like you to know that theoretically I can sympathise with your position because any regression of working conditions is not something that I personally view positively. However, I am affraid that many of the things that you mention, if not all, were things that were in fact not promised to you in the contract itself. My contract has never mentioned a 6/4 rostering system, nor does my contract mention any rights for stafftravel or concessionary travel for friends and family. It just doesn't, so as things stand it's a privilege I am getting from my employer which they contractually are not obliged to provide me. Now whether that is right, wrong or fair is is a completely different discussion, but things are as they are at the moment.
Furthermore, you are discussing a service provider contract. That means you are legally not even a direct WZZ employee but subcontracted through one of the agencies. So if we discuss the morality of the situation; I am receiving on my local polish contract, in gross and more or less, the same salary you are receiving. From this, I have to pay my social contributions and taxes just as much as you do. So from which argumentation can you argue that you should receive that 8% and I should not? Of course, if it should have gone any direction I am of the opinion that we all should have received 8% more, but it is difficult for me to understand a reasoning where one group who is not even employed by the airline would receive a higher gross salary than the group that actually has direct contracts locally. To me, that just does not make sense. Especially if you have a choice to choose a local contract, but for tax reasons many expats choose differently.
Furthermore, all the things that were adjusted were adjusted for contract pilots because this firm wants to focus more on local employees. That means that if they want the flexibility of unpaid leave, they will try to incorporate it in any new contractor contract. The strategy and the reasoning behind it is pretty obvious when we discuss the seasonality of the operation and the flexibility they want to have in BUD. Whether this should be allowed or not is a completely different matter and something that I do not necessarily endorse. However, the nature of the EU and the lack of regulation in this regard is the exact reason RYR can operate the way they do and consequently WZZ is operating the way they do. If something may be morally questionable, it does not make it illegal. The reasoning being that you don't have to sign that new captain upgrade contract ... (!).
I am not exactly endorsing any of this, but I am affraid to say that I am getting exactly what is in my contract. Whether it is morally right or wrong or anything, I do not see as relevant. The EU allows these practises and we as a a piloting profession have failed to address these issues properly through the likes of the ECA or other bodies on a regulatory level. The RPG are now starting to make a stand, but it will be alot of water under the bridge before anything gets done. So before you take me as a WZZ apologist remember that I am not, there are plenty of things in this company that could be better and my personal experience with our flight operationss management is that, within their constraints, they try to do what they can. But stop listing me all the things you don't agree with, I may very well agree with you that I would like to see these things improved, however in this particular debate it is not the point.
The point is that it is too late for us to complain now after we have fully read and agreed to sign these contracts. That's the way I view this situation, and trust me I need all the dosh I can get. However, this is a true capitalist situation which does give the employer alot of power. So before we all make our case at the EP through ECA etc. to get laws changed and incorporate some protection for ourselves, it is a losing battle. This is something that the RPG fully understands and that is why they are battling a difficult battle via the ECA to get things done. It is my prediction that if anything is to change on a regulatory level, it will be due to them. But who am I, but a lowly first officer.
Your claim that these contracts are getting changed by no consultation and through one way communication ofcourse is false. A contract cannot legally be changed without your permission and signature. By signing you agree just as much as they do to these new conditions. For the almost two years that I have been here my conditions are still exactly the same, as I did not change my contract or agree to any modification nor did anyone try to impose any on me.
Last edited by drfaust; 29th Oct 2013 at 15:57.
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Pilots Vote With Their Feet
You all guys can fish out what I wrote in this an the other Wizz thread since I applied for the job in late 2009.
I still love it! 3 years and something.
In my 25+ years career I have never been protected or helped by an Union.
The companies that I flew for until Wizz had all the "take it or leave it" attitude. This will not change in the foreseeable future. Pilot wise the Industry will rather go South.
At Wizz I got everything that was written in my contract. I read it carefully over and over again for a week. Just to make sure.
I got even more:
The first 2 fiscal years I made sure I flew less than 300 sectors (guaranteed by contract) and on both occasions I got paid more than the balance I was due!
To all the whiners - vote with your feet!
Or as mentioned above go live in a 21 m2 apartment (that's what they call them in HK, Korea and Japan), or bend over for the
.
Believe me, being an expat in a 3rd World country or Asia is not a Piece of Cake!
IMHO
I still love it! 3 years and something.
In my 25+ years career I have never been protected or helped by an Union.
The companies that I flew for until Wizz had all the "take it or leave it" attitude. This will not change in the foreseeable future. Pilot wise the Industry will rather go South.
At Wizz I got everything that was written in my contract. I read it carefully over and over again for a week. Just to make sure.
I got even more:
The first 2 fiscal years I made sure I flew less than 300 sectors (guaranteed by contract) and on both occasions I got paid more than the balance I was due!
To all the whiners - vote with your feet!
Or as mentioned above go live in a 21 m2 apartment (that's what they call them in HK, Korea and Japan), or bend over for the
.Believe me, being an expat in a 3rd World country or Asia is not a Piece of Cake!
IMHO
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Online training
First I did say that I am ready to be corrected and it seems that this has changed. Stuck in an ATR? Perhaps rightfully so? At the time pilots had to do their online training on OFF days? A day off with family or pissed out of your mind, your choice really as it's an off day. A day with no company related obligations. In your words: What's so hard to understand about that?
Yes I voted with my feet. Up to now Wizz was the worst job I've ever had, just bad from day one, a real culture shock. But one likes strawberries and another blueberries there are even people around that like to be whipped by a masked man in full body vinyl suit. While I had good times and met some great people, got something professionally, Wizz was just not my cup of tea.
For those considering the job. Take an objective look at your job in general, the corporate culture, terms and conditions, pension/retirement, loss of license insurance etc etc and compare the deal with what is around the world. If you are from any of the base cities for Wizz, being around home is a good thing for many and beats commuting. If not there's more money to be made for the same job elsewhere with good commuting contracts that much is sure.
Regarding bending over for like you swish266 so nicely put. Is it better to bend over without lubricant to a bunch of goulash eaters? I beg to differ. Look at the corruption levels in Poland, Hungary and pretty much every other country Wizz has a base in. Only in name first world countries or considered to be such by the natives.
Being an expat anywhere needs good consideration and it's a balancing act in more ways than one, Eastern Europe not being any different from many other third world countries.
Yes I voted with my feet. Up to now Wizz was the worst job I've ever had, just bad from day one, a real culture shock. But one likes strawberries and another blueberries there are even people around that like to be whipped by a masked man in full body vinyl suit. While I had good times and met some great people, got something professionally, Wizz was just not my cup of tea.
For those considering the job. Take an objective look at your job in general, the corporate culture, terms and conditions, pension/retirement, loss of license insurance etc etc and compare the deal with what is around the world. If you are from any of the base cities for Wizz, being around home is a good thing for many and beats commuting. If not there's more money to be made for the same job elsewhere with good commuting contracts that much is sure.
Regarding bending over for
like you swish266 so nicely put. Is it better to bend over without lubricant to a bunch of goulash eaters? I beg to differ. Look at the corruption levels in Poland, Hungary and pretty much every other country Wizz has a base in. Only in name first world countries or considered to be such by the natives.Being an expat anywhere needs good consideration and it's a balancing act in more ways than one, Eastern Europe not being any different from many other third world countries.
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Stuck in an ATR? Perhaps rightfully so?
Coming back to the subject of online training. You can't obviously do it while flying, right? So, if the company assigns you an e-training day, they either have to take one of your days off, or de-roster you from a day flying (which means you lose flight pay). Does it really matter if your roster says "OFF", or "e-training"? The bottom line is that you have to seat on your ass once a year for a couple of hours and do it .
Whether you should be paid extra for this, that'a another story (I wouldn't mind), but I guess few companies do...
Good luck with your "first world" career...
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Self employed? HMRC doesn't think so.
Direct from the UK taxman website:
Employed or self-employed?
In order to answer this question it is necessary to determine whether the person works under a contract of service (employees) or under a contract for services (self-employed, independent contractor). For tax and NICs purposes, there is no statutory definition of a contract of service or of a contract for services. What the parties call their relationship, or what they consider it to be, is not conclusive. It is the reality of the relationship that matters.
In order to determine the nature of a contract, it is necessary to apply common law principles. The courts have, over the years, laid down some factors and tests that are relevant, which is included in the overview below.
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
Employed or self-employed?
In order to answer this question it is necessary to determine whether the person works under a contract of service (employees) or under a contract for services (self-employed, independent contractor). For tax and NICs purposes, there is no statutory definition of a contract of service or of a contract for services. What the parties call their relationship, or what they consider it to be, is not conclusive. It is the reality of the relationship that matters.
In order to determine the nature of a contract, it is necessary to apply common law principles. The courts have, over the years, laid down some factors and tests that are relevant, which is included in the overview below.
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Won't tell
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Sorry ATR boy. You still do not get it. Training is duty and needs to count towards the weekly, monthly and yearly total allowed as per flight and duty time limitations. Wizz did not do this at the time, ie the training was done on your free time. Is this clear enough for you?
I've got absolutely zero interest in your carreer or life. I'll just leave it at that but from Cessna to 320, I wish but hardly the case. Having flown the last 10 years in command of heavy widebody jets from the other manufacturer (less the 320 time, command as well) I certainly know how fly a real aircraft rather than just manage. Remember dear chap, not everything is what it seems on this site.
Be a good chap now and keep your toys in the pram.
I've got absolutely zero interest in your carreer or life. I'll just leave it at that but from Cessna to 320, I wish but hardly the case. Having flown the last 10 years in command of heavy widebody jets from the other manufacturer (less the 320 time, command as well) I certainly know how fly a real aircraft rather than just manage. Remember dear chap, not everything is what it seems on this site.
Be a good chap now and keep your toys in the pram.
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: In the cloud
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The reason why the company loves to hire locals are that this is the best salary they can get and they don't complain. They even get more than they would in the local major company.
Wizz Air crew are the most productive crews in the low cost business of Europe, but still they are the lowest paid and on the worst conditions, except for the Vueling FOs.
Company made more than 100 million euros in profit last year according to the rumours and still they are cutting salary.
But at least they get 4 Christmas tickets every year for their good hard work and a party that most cannot or have no interest in participating in.
Many old and former employees are very unhappy with the behaviour and arrogance of the company.
It is a good place to get hours, meet a lot of great people and then move on.
Wizz Air crew are the most productive crews in the low cost business of Europe, but still they are the lowest paid and on the worst conditions, except for the Vueling FOs.
Company made more than 100 million euros in profit last year according to the rumours and still they are cutting salary.
But at least they get 4 Christmas tickets every year for their good hard work and a party that most cannot or have no interest in participating in.
Many old and former employees are very unhappy with the behaviour and arrogance of the company.
It is a good place to get hours, meet a lot of great people and then move on.
Last edited by B-U-S-S; 23rd Jan 2014 at 13:02.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: SKYLAND
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Coming back to the subject of online training. You can't obviously do it while flying, right? So, if the company assigns you an e-training day, they either have to take one of your days off, or de-roster you from a day flying (which means you lose flight pay). Does it really matter if your roster says "OFF", or "e-training"? The bottom line is that you have to seat on your ass once a year for a couple of hours and do it .
It's not your fault, it's your country fault, it's "your" mentality , it's the east european long sad story.
You, generally speaking, are very often used to accept anything and most of You don't know their own rights!!!!
Anyway just to let you understand the point regard the subject...of course you have to sit once per year or you have to do this and that training...BUT....in your monthly roster you should have your flights, lets say 10 day off minimum, and some rest due to duty time, and other days if not available, they should put out a flight day and instead put your duty office day for your training which it should be paid !
END OF THE STORY
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: here, there, everywhere
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No, I will never understand all this moaning and whining for no valid reason...
Seriously, does having "e-training" put in your roster make you happier? Coz' it doesnt' change ANYTHING with regard to your pay and time off...
If you don't like the eastern-european mentality, then I guess you are working in the wrong place...
Cheers!
Seriously, does having "e-training" put in your roster make you happier? Coz' it doesnt' change ANYTHING with regard to your pay and time off...
If you don't like the eastern-european mentality, then I guess you are working in the wrong place...
Cheers!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sandpit
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I've been following this thread with interest. Stuck in ATR. No idea about your mentality nor does it really matter. But do you understand EASA/JAR rules?
If you position on company business from KTW-LTN-BBU to operate a flight, that time counts as duty. If you are in simulator that counts for duty. If you operate a flight to DTM and back that's duty and FDP.
Allmost ALL company related activities directly in connection with the job including training are duty time for flight crew! The training time needs to be accounted for be it home in front of computer or in a class room. I can understand the reluctance to accept this by you as one might loose a 4 sector day but that's just how rules work, sometimes in your favor sometimes not.
If you position on company business from KTW-LTN-BBU to operate a flight, that time counts as duty. If you are in simulator that counts for duty. If you operate a flight to DTM and back that's duty and FDP.
Allmost ALL company related activities directly in connection with the job including training are duty time for flight crew! The training time needs to be accounted for be it home in front of computer or in a class room. I can understand the reluctance to accept this by you as one might loose a 4 sector day but that's just how rules work, sometimes in your favor sometimes not.