airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !
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Mikehotel152
That is the bit that is cobblers. I have worked for 5 airlines and not found that statement to be true in any of them. Sure you get the odd dork along the way, but for every one of them there are 99 great people.
He who shouts loudest and acts with the most unfounded assertiveness is lauded in airlines the world over. Sad but true.
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Even a monkey can learn a questionbank by heart.
Compare the level of teaching the ATPL now with 20 years or even 10 years ago:ugh
I fly commercially for 20 years now, and the decline in understanding of aviation subjects is staggering, frightening and very real.
Departures131, from reading your post,it looks that you are the judgemental one, attacking on a personal level instead of giving general remarks.
And no, I do not think that nowadays cadets have to work as hard as before. Standards HAVE gone down due to the pure commercialisation and greed of both JAA(EASA), the Airlines AND the academies.
Compare the level of teaching the ATPL now with 20 years or even 10 years ago:ugh
I fly commercially for 20 years now, and the decline in understanding of aviation subjects is staggering, frightening and very real.
Departures131, from reading your post,it looks that you are the judgemental one, attacking on a personal level instead of giving general remarks.
And no, I do not think that nowadays cadets have to work as hard as before. Standards HAVE gone down due to the pure commercialisation and greed of both JAA(EASA), the Airlines AND the academies.
Alexander
Perhaps I was overly harsh in order to make the point, but I have met pilots throughout training and professional flying who have overly inflated opinions of their ability. In many cases, including in the sim and during line checks, I have seen these people commended for being 'slick' in circumstances where CRM and teamwork would better resolve a normal or non-normal situation. My point, inelegantly made, is that the loud and brash pilot of average ability will do extraordinarily well in aviation because flying is still overly macho.
Departures131
With respect, you have no idea what kind of pilot or person I am. You have drawn erroneous conclusions, however, like Alexander, it's probably because of my uncompromising outburst in relation to your assertion that a dummy cannot get to the cockpit because of the intense academic training.
But I wasn't suggesting that complete idiots populate the modern cockpit. It's a mixture. Nevertheless, as Despegue points out, standards of theoretical training are lower than ever before, primarily because all the professional examinations use the multiple choice format with easily accessible question banks. Whatever people say about the professional value of A-Levels or a Degree in relation to flying at least those qualifications are handed out following written examinations.
When you combine low levels of theoretical knowledge with low hours in the cockpit, even rigid SOPs can disguise only so much of the inherent danger. As I said before, I come across a lot of pilots whose airmanship isn't up to the standard I believe should be the norm. Yet all these people passed the exams and flight tests. I am no saint, nor am I an excellent pilot. But in my defence, I am conscious of my deficiencies and work hard to rectify them - an attitude I cannot detect in some of my more arrogant colleagues.
Perhaps I was overly harsh in order to make the point, but I have met pilots throughout training and professional flying who have overly inflated opinions of their ability. In many cases, including in the sim and during line checks, I have seen these people commended for being 'slick' in circumstances where CRM and teamwork would better resolve a normal or non-normal situation. My point, inelegantly made, is that the loud and brash pilot of average ability will do extraordinarily well in aviation because flying is still overly macho.
Departures131
With respect, you have no idea what kind of pilot or person I am. You have drawn erroneous conclusions, however, like Alexander, it's probably because of my uncompromising outburst in relation to your assertion that a dummy cannot get to the cockpit because of the intense academic training.
But I wasn't suggesting that complete idiots populate the modern cockpit. It's a mixture. Nevertheless, as Despegue points out, standards of theoretical training are lower than ever before, primarily because all the professional examinations use the multiple choice format with easily accessible question banks. Whatever people say about the professional value of A-Levels or a Degree in relation to flying at least those qualifications are handed out following written examinations.
When you combine low levels of theoretical knowledge with low hours in the cockpit, even rigid SOPs can disguise only so much of the inherent danger. As I said before, I come across a lot of pilots whose airmanship isn't up to the standard I believe should be the norm. Yet all these people passed the exams and flight tests. I am no saint, nor am I an excellent pilot. But in my defence, I am conscious of my deficiencies and work hard to rectify them - an attitude I cannot detect in some of my more arrogant colleagues.
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 30th Dec 2013 at 08:21.
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Once the objective ATPL multiple guess quizzes are passed, apart from a type rating technical exam, again a multiple guess quiz, I think all other assessments are subjective, licence skills tests, OPCs, LPCs and line checks...that allows scope for "but he's a nice guy" to unfortunately creep in and while all the protection of the hurdles you mentioned are there, factor humans into those hurdles and sometimes the protection falls away.
@departures131:
followed immediately by:
Pure comedy! Do you never stop to take a look at the hypocritical nonsense you write? Talk about an own goal!
Where did you witness that? It is purely a figment of your (judgmental and assuming) imagination. He didn't say that. I recommend you either have your eyes tested, or you learn to read properly. You demonstrate yourself to be an unreliable witness who is hypocritical, judgmental and making assumptions.
That's a relief then.
Best advice would be to keep yours to yourself.
A person who is judgmental and assumes they can figure someone out is the person that will get caught out
I can see you are the type of person that thinks they know it all and can do no wrong...
Pure comedy! Do you never stop to take a look at the hypocritical nonsense you write? Talk about an own goal!
What I have witnessed here is you trying to tell me the examinations are as easy as learning the alphabet
I however will never be involved myself
I just offer advice based on another industry.
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In a recent post, Departures131 declared that he wants to BUY 500 hours on a jet, just for the experience, for the fun of it, as he is rich, over 50 and want to have done it in his life
This poster is a perfect example of the problem with our industry nowadays.
So please do not take this departures131 person serious.
He is simply a troll, not an aviator.
This poster is a perfect example of the problem with our industry nowadays.
So please do not take this departures131 person serious.
He is simply a troll, not an aviator.
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Well if this industry is full of clowns and circus acts why do u bother to continue to work in it?
And yes it would be a great experience to have 500 hours, but you have no right to tell me what to do, its my life, my money and my decision, if you dont like it thats your problem, live in anger if you so wish.
And yes it would be a great experience to have 500 hours, but you have no right to tell me what to do, its my life, my money and my decision, if you dont like it thats your problem, live in anger if you so wish.
departures131,
I think the problem is that (at least from where I'm sitting) whilst admirable that you have managed to make a success of your previous area of employment, and quite rightly reap the rewards of what I'm sure must have been bloody hard work, determination etc. to get there, some forum members see that you now wish to "play" at the big jets. Now, as you quite rightly point out;
Now, maybe a slightly different perspective - imagine that in your prior chosen career path, you found yourself in the position whereby considerable expense and effort had gotten you to a point where you could start to earn a decent incoming from your chosen profession - and then slowly, all the Terms and Conditions started to dwindle, to the point where others paying to do what you previously chose to get paid to do, had eroded your business down to a mere hobby (from an earnings perspective), one which given the investment in time and money, made it hard to meet the accrued debts, bills and alike - and there, I think, is where you have met the resentment.
By all means, spend your money as you wish - don't think anyone really could argue they have a right to tell you otherwise in reality. But do bear in mind that collectively you are contributing to the overall decline in Professional Aviation as a career, and especially as you are really not looking at this as anything more than a hobby, a folly, to satisfy an urge. Your short term gain will be other's long term loss, and perhaps as you alluded to earlier, you would be better off buying yourself a Simulator and pretending you have the paying public in the rear, as opposed to coming out and joining the Professionals who do this to earn a living.
As for the industry having "clowns" and being little more than a "Circus Act" - well, not all in this industry are like that, in fact, it is only a very small minority. But you are looking to feed some of these "clowns", and some of us prefer to remain long-term in this industry, and achieve respect and success not only for ourselves, but also our employers, and thus achieve longevity for all. IMHO, subsidising pax air fares by paying to fly helps no-one long term, employee, or employer.
I think the problem is that (at least from where I'm sitting) whilst admirable that you have managed to make a success of your previous area of employment, and quite rightly reap the rewards of what I'm sure must have been bloody hard work, determination etc. to get there, some forum members see that you now wish to "play" at the big jets. Now, as you quite rightly point out;
you have no right to tell me what to do, its my life, my money and my decision, if you dont like it thats your problem, live in anger if you so wish.
By all means, spend your money as you wish - don't think anyone really could argue they have a right to tell you otherwise in reality. But do bear in mind that collectively you are contributing to the overall decline in Professional Aviation as a career, and especially as you are really not looking at this as anything more than a hobby, a folly, to satisfy an urge. Your short term gain will be other's long term loss, and perhaps as you alluded to earlier, you would be better off buying yourself a Simulator and pretending you have the paying public in the rear, as opposed to coming out and joining the Professionals who do this to earn a living.
As for the industry having "clowns" and being little more than a "Circus Act" - well, not all in this industry are like that, in fact, it is only a very small minority. But you are looking to feed some of these "clowns", and some of us prefer to remain long-term in this industry, and achieve respect and success not only for ourselves, but also our employers, and thus achieve longevity for all. IMHO, subsidising pax air fares by paying to fly helps no-one long term, employee, or employer.
departures131. You've only been posting here under 1 week, yet you've irritated many. You've criticised PROFESSIONAL pilots about how they handled a mayday / engine failure - mishandled in your ignorant opinion. You have demonstrated that you clearly understand very little, if any, of what is involved, nor how well they in fact did.
Remember, the first P in PPRuNe is for Professional, not Pretend.
You have told us all about your qualifications as (apparently) a CPL / IR and your aspirations to play at flying passenger jets 'as a life experience'. We have seen your hypocritical attacking of Professional pilots who actually FLY for a living, your criticism of Professional pilots who handled an engine failure in almost textbook fashion, and your claims that a single engine landing of an overweight 757 has no effect on the brakes (breaks as you prefer...) as it is a completely normal landing.
The more you say, the more stupid you look.
Many would consider that you prove Mikehotel's point pefectly. You most certainly give very strong supporting evidence in favour of his argument. His whole point was that almost anyone could somehow become technically qualified to occupy a right hand seat of a passenger jet. You provide the evidence every time you offer your thoughts and opinions. You really should stop.
Remember, the first P in PPRuNe is for Professional, not Pretend.
You have told us all about your qualifications as (apparently) a CPL / IR and your aspirations to play at flying passenger jets 'as a life experience'. We have seen your hypocritical attacking of Professional pilots who actually FLY for a living, your criticism of Professional pilots who handled an engine failure in almost textbook fashion, and your claims that a single engine landing of an overweight 757 has no effect on the brakes (breaks as you prefer...) as it is a completely normal landing.
The more you say, the more stupid you look.
Many would consider that you prove Mikehotel's point pefectly. You most certainly give very strong supporting evidence in favour of his argument. His whole point was that almost anyone could somehow become technically qualified to occupy a right hand seat of a passenger jet. You provide the evidence every time you offer your thoughts and opinions. You really should stop.
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First.Officer.
While I instinctively agree with most of your post, the sad fact of the matter is, everyone who has paid to fly (beyond getting the basic licenses) has contributed to the decline of global T&C's. Doesn't really matter if they are 25 or 50. Loaded or skint with a 100k worth of debt. It has all added to where we are today.
While I instinctively agree with most of your post, the sad fact of the matter is, everyone who has paid to fly (beyond getting the basic licenses) has contributed to the decline of global T&C's. Doesn't really matter if they are 25 or 50. Loaded or skint with a 100k worth of debt. It has all added to where we are today.
How did it evolve that airlines are asking for tens of thousands of Pounds Sterling or Euros for "line training" that might, or might not, finish with job offer? Except for SWA's requirement for a simple B737 TR, which only gets an interview, the very idea would be laughed out the door at a US major.
As far as I am aware - it is laughed out at the european majors too.
However, Mr Pikey came over and extracted all the very worst of the SWA model and outcompeted everyone in euroland ... so all but the very biggest had to follow suit to stay in business. FOs are just another useful cost center to be squeezed.
However, Mr Pikey came over and extracted all the very worst of the SWA model and outcompeted everyone in euroland ... so all but the very biggest had to follow suit to stay in business. FOs are just another useful cost center to be squeezed.
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macdo
I notice that you think that it is ok to pay for your basic licences.
Let me guess.
You only paid for your basic licences?
Funny how people set the bar to exclude themselves from the "bad" people who have ruined aviation as a career.
Personally I never paid for any of mine. Does that mean I can look down upon you?
I'm my not so humble opinion the fault is in no way with those who will do anything to get into aviation. Good for them.
I want to be an astronaut. If there was such a thing as pay to spacewalk I would sign up tomorrow.
There isn't, because the current astronauts won't allow idiots like me anywhere near a rocket.
The fault lies with the pilots/unions who watched it happen with the usual pilot "it won't affect me so sod 'em" attitude so prevalent in civil aviation.
I notice that you think that it is ok to pay for your basic licences.
Let me guess.
You only paid for your basic licences?
Funny how people set the bar to exclude themselves from the "bad" people who have ruined aviation as a career.
Personally I never paid for any of mine. Does that mean I can look down upon you?
I'm my not so humble opinion the fault is in no way with those who will do anything to get into aviation. Good for them.
I want to be an astronaut. If there was such a thing as pay to spacewalk I would sign up tomorrow.
There isn't, because the current astronauts won't allow idiots like me anywhere near a rocket.
The fault lies with the pilots/unions who watched it happen with the usual pilot "it won't affect me so sod 'em" attitude so prevalent in civil aviation.
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I notice that you think that it is ok to pay for your basic licences.
However, when your profession is in great demand (i.e. not enough people interested in it as a career) organizations in need of qualified employees often provide education incentives or pay for your education outright while bonding you for a long term contract. This is just a swing of the pendulum in the other direction.
Still, I think being an airline pilot isn't such a great job that it's worth getting yourself so deeply in debt for. I think with that kind of money on hand anyone is probably better off on starting a lucrative business venture and flying for recreation. Now that I'm an airline pilot I miss flying the small planes.
I think the lure of scheduled airline flying in a transport jet is more of a fantasy than a reality. When you are doing it you wonder...yeah, it's a good job, better than most, but it can get pretty damn tedious after a while. It's sort of like having "two chicks at the same time" Office Space -1999, I don't think you need a million dollars for that although because it sounds like fun and you may be tempted to pay for it. So you see all these cool guys going around with two chicks and you think....I wanna be that guy! It's the same thing with being an airline pilot...maybe that's why we all have so many ex wives. No disrespect to our female colleagues.
Funny how people set the bar to exclude themselves from the "bad" people who have ruined aviation as a career.
I want to be an astronaut. If there was such a thing as pay to spacewalk I would sign up tomorrow.
There isn't, because the current astronauts won't allow idiots like me anywhere near a rocket.
The fault lies with the pilots/unions who watched it happen with the usual pilot "it won't affect me so sod 'em" attitude so prevalent in civil aviation.
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TOURIST - You are correct. I paid for my CPL/IR via the old self improver FI route. So, it was almost self financing, but I was poor for quite a long time!
However, when I got my first airline job I was BONDED for 3 years which I thought was entirely reasonable given the investment the airline made.
I think you have to draw a realistic line in the sand over what is acceptable to the majority and what starts to injure it.
If I want to be a lawyer, I would go to University for three years for my basic qualification for Law and incur about 50k in debts. Afterwards I would be looking for a job, albeit lowly paid, and from there my career would grow. I would not expect to pay another 50k to get legal work experience to help me on my way. Although, it has to be said that the 'unpaid internship' system which has developed in the UK in many areas is having a similar detrimental effect on graduate pay.
I am not passing judgement on those that PTF. I can, from experience, say that a few of those who are able to come via this route, get the majority a bad name. But, given that I can just about remember how desperate I was to fly for a living, I may well have PTF'd myself. It is also completely reasonable and provable that PTF and the immoral antics of some airlines have injured the T&C's of the profession.
You could, perhaps, argue that the destruction of the career structure progressing from GA(or RAF)/Turboprop/Jet, with everyone having to start in the right seat of an Big Shiny Jet, has also done us great harm.
However, when I got my first airline job I was BONDED for 3 years which I thought was entirely reasonable given the investment the airline made.
I think you have to draw a realistic line in the sand over what is acceptable to the majority and what starts to injure it.
If I want to be a lawyer, I would go to University for three years for my basic qualification for Law and incur about 50k in debts. Afterwards I would be looking for a job, albeit lowly paid, and from there my career would grow. I would not expect to pay another 50k to get legal work experience to help me on my way. Although, it has to be said that the 'unpaid internship' system which has developed in the UK in many areas is having a similar detrimental effect on graduate pay.
I am not passing judgement on those that PTF. I can, from experience, say that a few of those who are able to come via this route, get the majority a bad name. But, given that I can just about remember how desperate I was to fly for a living, I may well have PTF'd myself. It is also completely reasonable and provable that PTF and the immoral antics of some airlines have injured the T&C's of the profession.
You could, perhaps, argue that the destruction of the career structure progressing from GA(or RAF)/Turboprop/Jet, with everyone having to start in the right seat of an Big Shiny Jet, has also done us great harm.
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Denis Tito was not an astronaut, he was merely the first space self loading freight.
Pay to fly is something very different, though sometimes the poor chap in the left seat might wonder.
Pay to fly is something very different, though sometimes the poor chap in the left seat might wonder.
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Denis Tito was not an astronaut, he was merely the first space self loading freight.
Interestingly, Dennis Tito met with resistance from NASA during his training because they felt his qualification as an astronaut was questionable for very much the same reasons we are debating in this thread. They felt paying to be an astronaut degraded the dignity of the profession.
He is a former engineer and "rocket scientist" with NASA. He was more than freight or a passenger.
Pay to fly is something very different, though sometimes the poor chap in the left seat might wonder.
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P2F
As has been stated, paying to fly fare paying passengers with a commercial airline is the main step that has devalued a once respected profession. I can not see how this situation can be reversed and would certainly not advise anyone to enter into professional flying. Both the Airlines and predominately "pilots" with low hours are responsible for the demise of terms and conditions and possibly standards. The next logical step,to my mind would be to attack Captains terms and conditions for new promotions. A sad and disgraceful situation, which will no doubt continue.