airlines who ask pilots to pay to fly !
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Well Lingdee has certainly earned the head seat at the kiddy table, while the professional pilots sit and eat at the adult table.
The only qualifications I've seen demonstrated by the P2Fer is the ability to pay their way into the cockpit. Perhaps Lingdee and HermannP are into suggestive polling... as my peers have no respect for the P2Fer, that's both F/O and Captains. The funniest I ever heard was when a passenger asked her if the F/O was the pilot. She said no... he's not a real pilot. His parents had to pay the airline so baby sitters could watch him. That must have been a real proud moment for the little shave tail.
The only qualifications I've seen demonstrated by the P2Fer is the ability to pay their way into the cockpit. Perhaps Lingdee and HermannP are into suggestive polling... as my peers have no respect for the P2Fer, that's both F/O and Captains. The funniest I ever heard was when a passenger asked her if the F/O was the pilot. She said no... he's not a real pilot. His parents had to pay the airline so baby sitters could watch him. That must have been a real proud moment for the little shave tail.
Last edited by captjns; 11th Aug 2013 at 20:53.
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Look at most feeder or GA ops, you will make as a captain a salary not too far off from what an new airline fo makes. In fact in some countries you will make more.
So the excuse that you can't make a decent wage by traditional means is lacking. It is pure f u, me first mentality. But you don't seem to realize that by doing this cue jumping you are taking cash directly out of your future pocket.
Not only that, when you pay to do a job that someone else gets paid to do, it's a bit tragic. It shows very little self value and undermines all of your so called "peers".
If you can't see that you are damaging the industry for your fellow pilots, please stop and realize that you are actually damaging your own future earning potential.
And if any of you apologists think you can make a case against that, I invite you to tell us how someone willing to pay to do my job doesn't undermine me.
So the excuse that you can't make a decent wage by traditional means is lacking. It is pure f u, me first mentality. But you don't seem to realize that by doing this cue jumping you are taking cash directly out of your future pocket.
Not only that, when you pay to do a job that someone else gets paid to do, it's a bit tragic. It shows very little self value and undermines all of your so called "peers".
If you can't see that you are damaging the industry for your fellow pilots, please stop and realize that you are actually damaging your own future earning potential.
And if any of you apologists think you can make a case against that, I invite you to tell us how someone willing to pay to do my job doesn't undermine me.
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Those who hate p2f are mostly current pilots who have already a job and the hours hence they do not require to do p2f and could not care less about others especially the jobless pilots..
Don't forget the instructors who have to train these guys and end up instructing even longer as their students buy a seat at an airline. They hate them too.
No one is required to p2f. No one is holding a gun to your head.
The funniest I ever heard was when a passenger asked her if the F/O was the pilot. She said no... he's not a real pilot. His parents had to pay the airline so baby sitters could watch him. That must have been a real proud moment for the little shave tail.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 16th Aug 2013 at 16:55.
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p2f
Even prostitutes get paid 
This p2f industry has to be brought to a screeching halt..by the regulators of Aviation.Pilots who pay to fly develop a bad attitude after training...because they feel they paid for the priviledge and will hardly have any obligation towards employers.
For those that insist on p2f...take along lots of vaseline during training...coz you will pay..through your nozzle too!
This p2f industry has to be brought to a screeching halt..by the regulators of Aviation.Pilots who pay to fly develop a bad attitude after training...because they feel they paid for the priviledge and will hardly have any obligation towards employers.
For those that insist on p2f...take along lots of vaseline during training...coz you will pay..through your nozzle too!
Last edited by Trackdiamond; 16th Aug 2013 at 22:03.
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I think PTF should be avoided at all costs. Reducing bonds for a type rating are ok imoh but money should only go in one direction come payday....them to you.
The argument levelled at us with jobs is that we don't know what it's like out there.
Well its true that when I went through the sausage factory the global economy was very different. Being a self improver my ppl instructor told me one thing before I headed off to finish my cpl/ir....for Christs sake get a recommendation - it's what separates you from everyone else.
So I went to the Heathrow Radison roadshow and asked each FT provider if they gave airline recommendations for self improver runts - most no, two said yes on the understanding that I passed both the cpl and ir first time. Which I did and true to their word FTE got me and interview with flybe.
So what's your point you ask....
One, only embark on your training when the world economy isn't in thehouse.
Two, make sure you satisfy yourself that a recommendation will be forthcoming at the end - subject to any caveats they stipulate.
If both cant be met then chalk it up to fate and don't go down the airline route, rather just enjoy your ppl to the max. Twin, imc etc.
The argument levelled at us with jobs is that we don't know what it's like out there.
Well its true that when I went through the sausage factory the global economy was very different. Being a self improver my ppl instructor told me one thing before I headed off to finish my cpl/ir....for Christs sake get a recommendation - it's what separates you from everyone else.
So I went to the Heathrow Radison roadshow and asked each FT provider if they gave airline recommendations for self improver runts - most no, two said yes on the understanding that I passed both the cpl and ir first time. Which I did and true to their word FTE got me and interview with flybe.
So what's your point you ask....
One, only embark on your training when the world economy isn't in the
house.Two, make sure you satisfy yourself that a recommendation will be forthcoming at the end - subject to any caveats they stipulate.
If both cant be met then chalk it up to fate and don't go down the airline route, rather just enjoy your ppl to the max. Twin, imc etc.
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Hi Chief Brody,
What if the world economy goes into the ****house during / just after training?
What if you had two or three recommendations before you trained but didn't mean anything afterwards because those companies haven't recruited since (or went bust).
I'm genuinely glad it all worked out for you. However it's probably a little naive to suggest that eveyone's problems could have all been sorted by following a couple of rules.
If flybe stopped recruitment UFN during your training, what would a promise of a recommendation been worth?
Would you have taken your own advice and been a happy PPL for ever?
I will not P2F. However, I think it's a lot more complicated than you make out.
What if the world economy goes into the ****house during / just after training?
What if you had two or three recommendations before you trained but didn't mean anything afterwards because those companies haven't recruited since (or went bust).
I'm genuinely glad it all worked out for you. However it's probably a little naive to suggest that eveyone's problems could have all been sorted by following a couple of rules.
If flybe stopped recruitment UFN during your training, what would a promise of a recommendation been worth?
Would you have taken your own advice and been a happy PPL for ever?
I will not P2F. However, I think it's a lot more complicated than you make out.
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EK4457
Im no economist but I judge the to have officially hit the fan when Northern Rock, Lehman Bros and Freddie Mac/Fanny Mae imploded.
The former of which was 2007.
All what you say is credible except we have been in this predicament for 6 years. So to the individuals who set off down the training route post the financial apocalypse mentioned above Caveat Emptor.
I agree I may have oversimplified things but when I go visit a pal in hospital who's flatlining I don't then walk down the grocers and buy some green bananas.
Im no economist but I judge the
to have officially hit the fan when Northern Rock, Lehman Bros and Freddie Mac/Fanny Mae imploded.The former of which was 2007.
All what you say is credible except we have been in this predicament for 6 years. So to the individuals who set off down the training route post the financial apocalypse mentioned above Caveat Emptor.
I agree I may have oversimplified things but when I go visit a pal in hospital who's flatlining I don't then walk down the grocers and buy some green bananas.
Lehman Brothers went bankrupt in 2008 and was still lighting up the Manhattan boardwalk in lurid green when I had the pleasure of visiting the Big Apple in September 2007.
I had started training at the beginning of that year when things still looked promising for newly qualified pilots using the self-improver route. Boy did things change between 2008 and 2010! Apart from a tiny number of niche positions and the loco expansion requirements, there were no jobs whatsoever.
So why on earth did anyone start training after 2008/9? It seems akin to gambling to me. And meanwhile the locos ran a very successful bookies knowing the odds were stacked entirely in their favour. The people who commenced training knowing that the locos were the only route were nuts!
I had started training at the beginning of that year when things still looked promising for newly qualified pilots using the self-improver route. Boy did things change between 2008 and 2010! Apart from a tiny number of niche positions and the loco expansion requirements, there were no jobs whatsoever.
So why on earth did anyone start training after 2008/9? It seems akin to gambling to me. And meanwhile the locos ran a very successful bookies knowing the odds were stacked entirely in their favour. The people who commenced training knowing that the locos were the only route were nuts!
Last edited by Mikehotel152; 20th Aug 2013 at 09:56.
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MH152,
Agreed.
I completed my PPL in 2005 and booked 6 months off from work in summer 2007 to complete CPL/MEIR.
I knew and worked with influential people in 3 airlines at the time. It couldn't have gone wrong...
Of course it did. These airlines have not recruited a single wannabe since then. One went bust.
I couldn't have timed it worse. Any earlier and I would have been job hunting in a relatively positive job market with contacts. Any later and I would not have wasted £50K.
That is why, whilst I will not P2F, I can't judge those who do. Of course some are complete pricks. However, some of them are simply good guys who are desperate to make their investment work after some rotten luck.
Sitting on a flight deck and demonising those to P2F is very easy to do. I just think that it's a symptom of our problems and not the cause.
Agreed.
I completed my PPL in 2005 and booked 6 months off from work in summer 2007 to complete CPL/MEIR.
I knew and worked with influential people in 3 airlines at the time. It couldn't have gone wrong...
Of course it did. These airlines have not recruited a single wannabe since then. One went bust.
I couldn't have timed it worse. Any earlier and I would have been job hunting in a relatively positive job market with contacts. Any later and I would not have wasted £50K.
That is why, whilst I will not P2F, I can't judge those who do. Of course some are complete pricks. However, some of them are simply good guys who are desperate to make their investment work after some rotten luck.
Sitting on a flight deck and demonising those to P2F is very easy to do. I just think that it's a symptom of our problems and not the cause.
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Lehman Brothers went bankrupt in 2008 and was still lighting up the Manhattan boardwalk in lurid green when I had the pleasure of visiting the Big Apple in September 2007.
People are brainwashed in school and by the MSM into believing that Keynesian economics (money printing and/or government spending) will cure all economic problems, unfortunately people who started training in 2007/2008 are now finding out the hard way that this is not true.
As for anyone who started in after 2010, they should really get their heads (re?)examined as they clearly lack any kind of risk assessment capability. These folks should IMHO only be allowed on airplanes as self loading freight, not as pilots.
The world briefly flirted with disaster in 2008, but fundamentally not much has changed. People and governments are still very much in debt, and banks are leveraged to the max with all sorts of derivatives that could blow up big time if the economy takes a tumble.
With stock markets again near all time highs, perhaps it's about time people start to look more into alternative media, i.e. blogs and internet sites that have a more contrarian and critical view of things, instead of just reading a glossy brochure from a flight school.
Zero Hedge | On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
Zerohedge is very good, with very frequent, almost live updates and commentary about geopolitical events that have a large impact on anyone who is contemplates spending thousands of Pounds, Dollars or Euros on flight training and/or P2F packages. Compare Zerohedge's analysis of events with the MSM analysis of the same event for a few weeks/months, and then draw your own conclusion.
Remember:
"Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; debt is the money of slaves” (Norm Franz)
I'm not recommending anyone to go and buy gold or silver, but for God's sake WAKE UP before you enslave yourself by taking on a huge amount of debt that will seriously screw up your future.
Aviation as a career is DEAD!
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Look Guys, it is not the fault of the individuals that indulge their dreams of flying the latest brand new superdooperjet, being given the opportunity only to do so by the regulatory authorities not having any minimum hr requirement before young rich pilots can p2f the superdooperjet. What ever happened to the FAA suggestion that there had to be minimum hrs before flying more advanced equipment. I thought 1500 was mooted. When I started 500 turbine was an absolute min before even getting a reply to an application.
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The FAA changed the rules for first officers - announcing new requirements on July 10, 2013. In short, on August 1, 2013, the FAA requires SIC's to hold an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate (ATP), but the certificate may have restricted privileges. An ATP with restricted privileges requires you to:
Total flight time and cross-country time aren't the only requirements for an ATP. In total, you'll need:
- Be 21 years old
- Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Instrument Rating
- Complete an Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program (ATP CTP)
- Pass the ATP knowledge and practical test
- And meet the flight time requirements of FAR 61.160 - roughly 1,500 hours
- Military pilots need only 750 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time
- Graduates from approved four-year universities with a Bachelor's degree and an aviation major need only 1000 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time if they:
- Complete at least 60 credit hours of aviation related coursework, and
- Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate that was earned through the university's part 141 training program
- If they complete less than 60 credit hours, but at least 30 credit hours, they need 1250 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time
- Graduates from approved two-year colleges with an Associate's degree and an aviation major need only 1250 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time if they:
- Complete at least 30 credit hours of aviation related coursework, and
- Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate that was earned through the school's part 141 training program.
- Other pilots need 1500 hours total time and 200 hours cross-country time
Total flight time and cross-country time aren't the only requirements for an ATP. In total, you'll need:
- 1500, 1250, 1000, or 750 hours of total flight time
- You can get up to 100 hours in an airplane full flight simulator or flight training device, if it was flown during an approved training course at a part 121, 135, 141, or 142 school
- 200 hours of cross-country flight time
- 100 hours of night flight time
- If you've performed more than 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop, you can count each additional takeoff/landing pair as one hour of night flight time - up to 25 hours of total night credit
- 50 hours of multi-engine flight time, but you can get 25 hours in a full flight simulator if done in an approved training program
- 75 hours of instrument flight time (actual or simulated)
- You can count up to 25 hours in a flight simulator or a flight training device while training with an instructor
- 250 hours of pilot in command (PIC) time, including
- At least 100 hours of cross-country time
- At least 25 hours of night flight time
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These magical air taxi/freight/survey work/instructor jobs simply don't exist on a sufficient scale anymore. Combine that with the fact that some people are just willing to throw money at the problem of not having a job and it's the perfect breeding ground for SSTR and P2F. SSTR imho is distinct from P2F in that however annoying it is, it's an employers market and if you don't pay someone else will.
As a low hour pilot right now, even with a very good CV, it is VERY hard to get a job. You have to have experience to get experience. To be a modular self improver now at a school that isn't very well known right now seems utter madness to me.
As a low hour pilot right now, even with a very good CV, it is VERY hard to get a job. You have to have experience to get experience. To be a modular self improver now at a school that isn't very well known right now seems utter madness to me.
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please pay attention to this one
While you experienced guys are too worried about industry and conditions which came with the new, not so great times please take a break and read carefully this post ones again.
Instead of bitching on your new colleagues you have the opportunity to change this negative spiral... but of course, it is always easier to blame others especially if they are in more undesirable or powerless situation.
This is only one of many possibilities that you well-established seniors have, so please do something to change it. Take the responsibility do not push it away! You are in command...
...
...So posted while ago with not so much attention as it requires something of those loudest people here on the forum...
"Simple solution to stop this...
We Captains hold all the cards really.
REFUSE to fly with a paying passenger in the right seat and demand a replacement First Officer, one that IS employed by the company and recieves a salary.
If the airline refuses and threatens you, refuse to fly, go into the cabin. GET ON THE PA, and tell the situation to the passengers, stating that the Second in command will fly them their passengers to their holiday destination, and paying 50000 euro for the privelege. state that you can not morally, nor professionally support this,,and that due to this company procedure you have genuine safety concerns.
Get out.
Only a couple of times this must happen before the tabloids will be FULL of public outcries
Oh, yeah, you will probably have to find a new job, but if you fly for one of these slave companies that support PTF, you might be better of at home anyhow At least you showed that you are worthy of your four stripes, have balls and take your responsibility towards our industry in general and your colegues Worldwide in particular."
Instead of bitching on your new colleagues you have the opportunity to change this negative spiral... but of course, it is always easier to blame others especially if they are in more undesirable or powerless situation.
This is only one of many possibilities that you well-established seniors have, so please do something to change it. Take the responsibility do not push it away! You are in command...
......So posted while ago with not so much attention as it requires something of those loudest people here on the forum...
"Simple solution to stop this...
We Captains hold all the cards really.
REFUSE to fly with a paying passenger in the right seat and demand a replacement First Officer, one that IS employed by the company and recieves a salary.
If the airline refuses and threatens you, refuse to fly, go into the cabin. GET ON THE PA, and tell the situation to the passengers, stating that the Second in command will fly them their passengers to their holiday destination, and paying 50000 euro for the privelege. state that you can not morally, nor professionally support this,,and that due to this company procedure you have genuine safety concerns.
Get out.
Only a couple of times this must happen before the tabloids will be FULL of public outcries
Oh, yeah, you will probably have to find a new job, but if you fly for one of these slave companies that support PTF, you might be better of at home anyhow At least you showed that you are worthy of your four stripes, have balls and take your responsibility towards our industry in general and your colegues Worldwide in particular."
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There is such nonsense being written here by people who never had to make hard decisions. I am one of those who was in the right place at the right time and got a job by applying for it, getting a bond and then being paid to work. We all know that p2f is immoral and outrageous. The problem is that the system exists and for many people this is the only way into aviation. The root of all this lies in the infinite supply of young people desperate to be airline pilots and who will take any loan, at virtually any interest rate and do anything to get that job. This is supply and demand in action - as long as that infinite supply exists you will have this problem.
You can see in China where there is a desperate shortage of A320 Captains, they will pay a fortune to get a western guy to sign up - again supply and demand in action. The problem is that even though Chinese airlines want these people, their own country wants to do everything possible to stop them coming so they produce crazy medical rules to prevent the very captains they need working there - classic communist, command economy activities getting in the way of good old capitalist supply and demand.
The only real solution is for national civil aviation regulation to prevent p2f. If the UK CAA are anything to go by, then we should not be holding our breath.
You can see in China where there is a desperate shortage of A320 Captains, they will pay a fortune to get a western guy to sign up - again supply and demand in action. The problem is that even though Chinese airlines want these people, their own country wants to do everything possible to stop them coming so they produce crazy medical rules to prevent the very captains they need working there - classic communist, command economy activities getting in the way of good old capitalist supply and demand.
The only real solution is for national civil aviation regulation to prevent p2f. If the UK CAA are anything to go by, then we should not be holding our breath.
Last edited by Alexander de Meerkat; 29th Dec 2013 at 02:24. Reason: Typo
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The problem in basic terms goes back to the day everything was deregulated in the UK its gone pretty much T*ts up big style from that point onwards both the Tories and Labour have both been in power during this decay to our lives
Money went from been an important part of the overall picture of life. To been the only thing that matters these days
The energy supply industry and the banking system to name but two pretty big parts of our lives. Look how they have evolved through deregulation - The situation with aviation is nothing remarkable... It is exactly the same as everything else these days -As long as somebody somewhere is ripping your fingernails out or if not yours then somebody elses for half a penny there will be no enjoyment or fairness to life.
Whether your a desperate FO who will consider almost any idea to get a job or someone established in an Airline who is keen to hold what they have and keep their nut down. Both sides at fault? probably?.. neither side at fault? possibly.... One side blaming the other? Pointless really
Wannabees and experienced guys are not the problem. Its much much bigger than that.
Money went from been an important part of the overall picture of life. To been the only thing that matters these days
The energy supply industry and the banking system to name but two pretty big parts of our lives. Look how they have evolved through deregulation - The situation with aviation is nothing remarkable... It is exactly the same as everything else these days -As long as somebody somewhere is ripping your fingernails out or if not yours then somebody elses for half a penny there will be no enjoyment or fairness to life.
Whether your a desperate FO who will consider almost any idea to get a job or someone established in an Airline who is keen to hold what they have and keep their nut down. Both sides at fault? probably?.. neither side at fault? possibly.... One side blaming the other? Pointless really
Wannabees and experienced guys are not the problem. Its much much bigger than that.
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sascha410 - interesting point of view
In response to that post I would say that if I was a Captain in an airline, all I am worried about is that my co-pilot is fully qualified to fulfill his duty and has been checked to line by my airlines training department.
As to how they got to the seat is none of my business, I am paid to be the Captain of that particular airliner, and I will not get involved in the politics and put my own job at risk just to support this campaign.
Tabloids don't give 2 hoots about this, if we started putting unqualified pilots without CPL's I think there would be a story, but internships or whatever you want to call them is similar story in most industry's.
In this day and age company's want more for less, the golden era is long gone, you can either wine and moan on here about it or adjust to this ever changing industry, you control how you want to feel about life at the end of the day.
In general across all sectors the world is a very cruel and unfair place. and there are several people ready to screw you over when they get the chance.
In response to that post I would say that if I was a Captain in an airline, all I am worried about is that my co-pilot is fully qualified to fulfill his duty and has been checked to line by my airlines training department.
As to how they got to the seat is none of my business, I am paid to be the Captain of that particular airliner, and I will not get involved in the politics and put my own job at risk just to support this campaign.
Tabloids don't give 2 hoots about this, if we started putting unqualified pilots without CPL's I think there would be a story, but internships or whatever you want to call them is similar story in most industry's.
In this day and age company's want more for less, the golden era is long gone, you can either wine and moan on here about it or adjust to this ever changing industry, you control how you want to feel about life at the end of the day.
In general across all sectors the world is a very cruel and unfair place. and there are several people ready to screw you over when they get the chance.
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I am wondering why this is not happening in professions also, since the same market forces are in place there. There are millions (billions?) to be saved by asking newgrads in a new industry to fund the initial bit as well as paying for the first 500 hours experience.
Only in aviation though afaik, so why does it not happen in engineering, law, medicine etc when there are the same number of people eager to start a career there?
Only in aviation though afaik, so why does it not happen in engineering, law, medicine etc when there are the same number of people eager to start a career there?