Market flooded with experienced pilots makes the pimps happy
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Greener pastures outside aviation ?
Doug
Do you really think, you will be treated better outside aviation ? No matter where you go, the sum of the *hit is everywhere the same...
F.I.
Do you really think, you will be treated better outside aviation ? No matter where you go, the sum of the *hit is everywhere the same...
F.I.
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working crazy hours in order to enjoy a lousy pension after 40 years of lining the CEO's pockets with share options.
The job security situation is precarious everywhere.
Agree with you on the food, like my old job, I take my own food to work
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No offense here, but I think you folks are looking at it too much from an Anglo/American point of view where everybody (both management and staff) only look at the short term gains (i.e. money) to be made.
I'm talking about job satisfaction which affects the way I feel, which thus affects my health and which NO amount of money can compensate. Yes, I understand you need money to live, but maybe I'm on old fashioned fool when I try to look at the bigger picture then just money.
Besides, taking out a loan to pay for training and a type rating and then earning "big bucks" of which half goes to paying back the loan doesn't sound like a great deal to me.
Sure, you can go to a bank and do it again (!) the Anglo/American way and leverage yourself by showing them your payslip to take out even more loans to finance a lifestyle such as cars/house/vacations etc, but I think those days are definitely O V E R!
[Furthermore, the domino effect of those kind of people losing their jobs (and therefore stop spending and defaulting on loans) will accelerate the economic mess we're in, but that's probably a too European point of view and a different topic altogether.]
The boom is over and the bust is rapidly approaching, so be ready to grab your ankles and brace for the worst!
I'm talking about job satisfaction which affects the way I feel, which thus affects my health and which NO amount of money can compensate. Yes, I understand you need money to live, but maybe I'm on old fashioned fool when I try to look at the bigger picture then just money.
Besides, taking out a loan to pay for training and a type rating and then earning "big bucks" of which half goes to paying back the loan doesn't sound like a great deal to me.
Sure, you can go to a bank and do it again (!) the Anglo/American way and leverage yourself by showing them your payslip to take out even more loans to finance a lifestyle such as cars/house/vacations etc, but I think those days are definitely O V E R!
[Furthermore, the domino effect of those kind of people losing their jobs (and therefore stop spending and defaulting on loans) will accelerate the economic mess we're in, but that's probably a too European point of view and a different topic altogether.]
The boom is over and the bust is rapidly approaching, so be ready to grab your ankles and brace for the worst!
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It's almost a guarantee that the job of flying will go the way of taxi drivers and locomotive drivers. The train drivers used to be one step below God himself back in those days, now not so much.
As aircraft get more sophisticated flying will become increasingly easier on the crew. At some point it will simply be too technical and controlled of an environment that "anyone" will do up front. We'll have clearances on-screen that only require you to push a confirm button, I don't think it'll be long before we have planes with 4 buttons. T/O, cruise, land and emergency. We're being squeezed out of the flight deck gents, that's the way it is. It'll get easier to fly, people will be prepared to pay less and less for it and new guys keep lining up around the block to sell their soul for a chance at work. Most John Does refer to pilots as "nothing more than bus drivers" anyway, soon enough they'll be right too. We can talk on and on about the human factor and safety, how some decisions need people's skills and nobody would ever fly planes without pilots but ultimately it'll be a self-serve machine in the back, and some low-pay techie on the flight deck who can push the override switch when the 8 independent control systems all fail at once. We're being invented out of our seats that's just a fact.
Combine this with declining salaries, benefits and job security of 5 years a pop, moving to a different country to support yourself, getting divorced, never finding the time to see your family. To be honest I'm starting to lose sight of what makes this job interesting to begin with. Then again, other industries seem much the same these days. Maybe we're just collectively shafted by the man
with longer hours and less to show for it. Not like the 50s when one parent could stay at home, could afford a home and a car on one pay check. Now you have to take out huge loans that many never repay, just to find a roof over your head.
Life was better in the old days eh
As aircraft get more sophisticated flying will become increasingly easier on the crew. At some point it will simply be too technical and controlled of an environment that "anyone" will do up front. We'll have clearances on-screen that only require you to push a confirm button, I don't think it'll be long before we have planes with 4 buttons. T/O, cruise, land and emergency. We're being squeezed out of the flight deck gents, that's the way it is. It'll get easier to fly, people will be prepared to pay less and less for it and new guys keep lining up around the block to sell their soul for a chance at work. Most John Does refer to pilots as "nothing more than bus drivers" anyway, soon enough they'll be right too. We can talk on and on about the human factor and safety, how some decisions need people's skills and nobody would ever fly planes without pilots but ultimately it'll be a self-serve machine in the back, and some low-pay techie on the flight deck who can push the override switch when the 8 independent control systems all fail at once. We're being invented out of our seats that's just a fact.
Combine this with declining salaries, benefits and job security of 5 years a pop, moving to a different country to support yourself, getting divorced, never finding the time to see your family. To be honest I'm starting to lose sight of what makes this job interesting to begin with. Then again, other industries seem much the same these days. Maybe we're just collectively shafted by the man
with longer hours and less to show for it. Not like the 50s when one parent could stay at home, could afford a home and a car on one pay check. Now you have to take out huge loans that many never repay, just to find a roof over your head. Life was better in the old days eh
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As aircraft get more sophisticated flying will become increasingly easier on the crew. At some point it will simply be too technical and controlled of an environment that "anyone" will do up front. We'll have clearances on-screen that only require you to push a confirm button, I don't think it'll be long before we have planes with 4 buttons. T/O, cruise, land and emergency. We're being squeezed out of the flight deck gents, that's the way it is. It'll get easier to fly, people will be prepared to pay less and less for it and new guys keep lining up around the block to sell their soul for a chance at work. Most John Does refer to pilots as "nothing more than bus drivers" anyway, soon enough they'll be right too. We can talk on and on about the human factor and safety, how some decisions need people's skills and nobody would ever fly planes without pilots but ultimately it'll be a self-serve machine in the back, and some low-pay techie on the flight deck who can push the override switch when the 8 independent control systems all fail at once. We're being invented out of our seats that's just a fact.
I do acknowledge your point and I do believe there to be a certain degree of validity to it, but I firmly disagree with your opinion regarding sticking one guy up front to monitor things (just stating it in its bluntest form, not incinuating single trackedness on your part) - my reasoning behind this is I don't think there would be too many people out there willing to travel on an aircraft configured as such, the media would be all "What if he suffers a stroke?" this and - more likely in this day and age - "What if the single guy up there is a terrorist, there's noone to stop him!" that, I don't know, I just think there would be enough uproar over single pilot ops in the common airline industry (not taking into account routine SPO) that most of us use, let alone eliminating the human element altogether.
What I do find alarming, however, is when you look at the big picture and examine raw data charts displaying population growth, traffic levels, third world development and so on so forth over the past fifty years, it's all increasing at a highly exponential rate - where will we be in a FUTHER fifty years? What will become of the aviation industry? I just hope the next generation (when I have a family of my own, when my friends have kids etc) aren't made to suffer for our selfishness and lack of ability to take care of our own planet. I know it's perhaps an immoral thing to say, but some part of me is glad I was born in this era and not in another fifty years time. The world's gone crazy!
Anyway, where's my scotch, that always numbs the pain
Regards, Ad
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The point is not "Do we enjoy the job?" but "Where is this job going?"
Like you, I have been working in a completely different industry. Then like many of us, I worked hard, took difficult career's decisions, made family's choices and invested lots of money to get a license.
Today, money makers who got enough cash to launch an airline, just have one idea: Make profits profits and profits. Fair enough but "the way" they achieve their business, is, for us pilots, unacceptable. Be sure that behind each new start-up, there is a business plan hiding a "trick" to make huge returns. (shares, subsidiary company,...) Most of them don't care of their employees. I can give you lots of examples that I've been confronted with during the last 10 years.
So when we decided to become pilot it was for the pleasure of flying a plane, enjoying great destinations, making friends,... but certainly not to deal with those Pimps.
Like you, I have been working in a completely different industry. Then like many of us, I worked hard, took difficult career's decisions, made family's choices and invested lots of money to get a license.
Today, money makers who got enough cash to launch an airline, just have one idea: Make profits profits and profits. Fair enough but "the way" they achieve their business, is, for us pilots, unacceptable. Be sure that behind each new start-up, there is a business plan hiding a "trick" to make huge returns. (shares, subsidiary company,...) Most of them don't care of their employees. I can give you lots of examples that I've been confronted with during the last 10 years.
So when we decided to become pilot it was for the pleasure of flying a plane, enjoying great destinations, making friends,... but certainly not to deal with those Pimps.
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By pimps, I mean people who manage to accumulate hundred millions of debts to run their business and then set up their own package before declaring the airline Game Over. It happens every year and at the end of the day you always see the same faces re-starting a new ambitious start-up.
eg: (and that's just an example) You start your Airline "A" tomorrow with a fleet of 5 A330. Let's put an average monthly lease of 450.000 $ / aircraft. So you should expect a cost of 5 x 450.000 = 2.250.000 $ but because I m your good friend (if you see what I mean) my leasing company "B" will give a "better" price: 500.000 $ x 5 = 2.500.000 $. Every month, you pay me an extra 250.000 $ compared to what you should have paid. At the end of the year, let's say when you decide to go bankrupt, we meet again and share the jackpot. Sounds fair and really legal 
; init? Of course it also works with a fleet of 50 aircraft.
Having said that, I know that a few honest people work hard to set up an airline but they are passionate and must not be confound...
eg: (and that's just an example) You start your Airline "A" tomorrow with a fleet of 5 A330. Let's put an average monthly lease of 450.000 $ / aircraft. So you should expect a cost of 5 x 450.000 = 2.250.000 $ but because I m your good friend (if you see what I mean) my leasing company "B" will give a "better"
price: 500.000 $ x 5 = 2.500.000 $. Every month, you pay me an extra 250.000 $ compared to what you should have paid. At the end of the year, let's say when you decide to go bankrupt, we meet again and share the jackpot. Sounds fair and really legal ; init? Of course it also works with a fleet of 50 aircraft. Having said that, I know that a few honest people work hard to set up an airline but they are passionate and must not be confound...
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Who's taking the risks?
Birdy767, by 'those pimps' I assume you mean the people who went out on a limb and took massive risks to set up a company and, yes, make money.
Again, like Birdy767 said, the average manager/CEO (a few brave entrepreneurs exempted) just 'walk away' with a golden parachute if things don't work out as planned.
Why airlines do de-rated/flex take offs, but have no problem planning humans to their maximum annual/monthly/daily limits (even without decent crew food!) is still beyond me. The only conclusion I can derive is that an engine's life is more important than a human one.
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Why airlines do de-rated/flex take offs, but have no problem planning humans to their maximum annual/monthly/daily limits (even without decent crew food!) is still beyond me. The only conclusion I can derive is that an engine's life is more important than a human one.
Brilliant analogy Doug
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The (lack of ) intelligence levels of some of the people trying to enter this industry really is becoming a concern. It is a JOB. You should be paid to do it. 'I would fly an airliner for free for a year and also do another job to get money' - I am lost for words, I really am. Airline management must be crying into their champagne with laughter.
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I know it sounds really snobbish, but it's really turning into a blue collar job, also attracting pilots with a blue collar background. These people only stare at the salary, compare it to their friends who have factory or mediocre office jobs and think they've won the lottery.
In the old days, flying was for the elite. Pilots sort of belonged to this elite and enjoyed a great lifestyle with fantastic salaries without working too bloody hard, hence for example today's outdated FTD limits. It's an relique from a glorious past. Nobody was paying for type ratings 15-20 years ago, but with the advent of 'cheap/easy credit,' flying became more accessible but it also attracted a different kind of pilot.
To make matter worse, in a well meant effort to not bite the hand that feeds them this wonderful salary, these next generation (highly leveraged!) pilots now think it's best to not be too militant in their (traditional blue collar) support to unions with a dramatic effect on the lifestyle, T&C's and unknown long term health effects.
It's the worst of both worlds really.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm all for "equal opportunities" and I really respect that a lot of people worked very very hard to get where they are today, but in today's shrinking job market it can only mean one thing for our future T&C's: down!
As MainDude correctly said, it's all about supply/demand and evolution. It's therefore that I'm seriously contemplate 'evolving' into another industry, leaving my seat for some other idiot to endure their future employer's "costs saving measures" and "type rating schemes" merely for the privilege of pressing some buttons on a flight deck.
In the old days, flying was for the elite. Pilots sort of belonged to this elite and enjoyed a great lifestyle with fantastic salaries without working too bloody hard, hence for example today's outdated FTD limits. It's an relique from a glorious past. Nobody was paying for type ratings 15-20 years ago, but with the advent of 'cheap/easy credit,' flying became more accessible but it also attracted a different kind of pilot.
To make matter worse, in a well meant effort to not bite the hand that feeds them this wonderful salary, these next generation (highly leveraged!) pilots now think it's best to not be too militant in their (traditional blue collar) support to unions with a dramatic effect on the lifestyle, T&C's and unknown long term health effects.
It's the worst of both worlds really.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm all for "equal opportunities" and I really respect that a lot of people worked very very hard to get where they are today, but in today's shrinking job market it can only mean one thing for our future T&C's: down!
As MainDude correctly said, it's all about supply/demand and evolution. It's therefore that I'm seriously contemplate 'evolving' into another industry, leaving my seat for some other idiot to endure their future employer's "costs saving measures" and "type rating schemes" merely for the privilege of pressing some buttons on a flight deck.
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I'm with you Doug, I still think it's a decent enough job but that's not the issue. My question is will this be a good career until I retire and on that I'm still deciding. I'd need to bail pretty soon to catch up in a more interesting field of work but it is very tempting.
I call BS on the idea that airliners will never fly on automation, flying at all was once "impossible". Plus, and this is just a thought, what does 99% of all NTSB reports conclude? That's right, pilot error. We may have a fantabulous brain that can sort out situations that a machine couldn't, but had the machine been in charge to begin with the problem might not have occurred. We assume we're indispensable because we think of it as taking the current system and simply yanking the crew out of it. Of course that wouldn't work. But if you designed the whole aparatus from gate to gate to function with as few people as possible then you could probably get rid of us with enough fail-safes and technology.
A matter of time.
I call BS on the idea that airliners will never fly on automation, flying at all was once "impossible". Plus, and this is just a thought, what does 99% of all NTSB reports conclude? That's right, pilot error. We may have a fantabulous brain that can sort out situations that a machine couldn't, but had the machine been in charge to begin with the problem might not have occurred. We assume we're indispensable because we think of it as taking the current system and simply yanking the crew out of it. Of course that wouldn't work. But if you designed the whole aparatus from gate to gate to function with as few people as possible then you could probably get rid of us with enough fail-safes and technology.
A matter of time.
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Automation
Just compare aircraft to trains for which technological requirements which are a lot less complex. How many fully automated trains are currently in service? Not that many, and the ones in service are only used on smaller routes. There will always be some limited form of human input necessary, especially for non-normals that required some limited 'out of the box' thinking. It would be virtually impossible to design an automated aircraft to take care of all kinds of possible scenarios. Just look at that recent ditching in the Hudson river in NY.
Even if it was possible to design such an aircraft, don't forget that for both airlines and aircraft manufacturers, it's probably a lot cheaper to have a human pilot in the front instead of just an automated pilot.
The key word here is liability!
Even if it was possible to design such an aircraft, don't forget that for both airlines and aircraft manufacturers, it's probably a lot cheaper to have a human pilot in the front instead of just an automated pilot.
The key word here is liability!
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humpme
If they haven't even managed to make all trains run without drivers (how hard can that be seeing as they just start / stop, go faster / go slower on a guidance system better than any autopilot) it's hardly likely that commercial aircraft are going to operate without pilots anytime soon.
As people say we are merely train driver's now. In the days of steam trains and boats they originally started with the pullman class and 1st class and every wee boy wanted to be a train driver, nowadays a train driver is really seen as working class.
Same with aviation, originally it was exclusive and a pilot was a god. Just like the train driver the mystery has gone and now we travel on flying pubs. The cudos of being a pilot has gone and we are mere train drivers. And soon like the train at LGW we could disappear.
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Lots of young pilots without jobs. Even willing to pay for flying. Airlines in trouble.
What do we, the pilots do? We move our retirement age up 5 or 10 years! (ok,ok, it`s not only our own doing, but it`s widely supported among the elderly pilots)
These are the times that companies should give incentives to people to retire early. And these are the times that pilots should take those oportunities!
That way we create new jobs for young pilots and we lower the costs of the companies, while not losing too much money (if we negotiate it cleverly).
There is a real relation between this topic and retirement age!
What do we, the pilots do? We move our retirement age up 5 or 10 years! (ok,ok, it`s not only our own doing, but it`s widely supported among the elderly pilots)
These are the times that companies should give incentives to people to retire early. And these are the times that pilots should take those oportunities!
That way we create new jobs for young pilots and we lower the costs of the companies, while not losing too much money (if we negotiate it cleverly).
There is a real relation between this topic and retirement age!
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Maybe pilots should invest in their own business and buy their airlines instead of paying for type ratings given for free by Airbus or Boeing for each new aircraft order.
Don't wait to work on World's minimum salary basis to take control of it...
The value of the Airline depends on the duration of the strike.
Just kidding
Don't wait to work on World's minimum salary basis to take control of it...
The value of the Airline depends on the duration of the strike.
Just kidding